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The Pukhtoon Society

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    (Original post by soyasauce)
    dunno
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Instead of crying about the past, why don't we look at the present. If a vote was conducted now, a majority of Pashtuns in the North West of Pakistan (or rather all around the country- why discriminate based on geographical location right?) will vote to stay part of Pakistan.
    Even when that past could have shaped the very borders on which pakistan exists today? one should always speak out against an injustice no matter how long ago. Yes, No doubt they would probably vote for Pakistan, and that is becuase they simply no longer know about their own history. Go to schools in Pakhtunkhwa, you think they will be taught about the verses of khushal khan khattak, that ALL Pashtuns are Afghans or taught about the shady circumstances surrounding the durrrand line? Absolutely not, the Pakistanis cant risk it.


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    The Pashtuns in the tribal areas who yearn to be part of Afghanistan?
    The tribal Pashtuns are probably the only free Pashtuns in the whole in Pakistan, but if you think they like Pakistan, you'd be mistaken. Which is why an "islamic emirate of Waziristan" exists inside waziristan as a state within a state.
    The Pakistani army even made a deal in north waziristan due the fact that there were desertions in the Frontier Corps, Pashtuns would not fight Pahstuns and were willing to go against Pakistan for it.

    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Well I support holding a referendum but that's obviously not gonna happen in the near future.
    agreed, i predict Pakistans instability will increase, which along with rising nationalist thoughts and a stable afghan goverment will soon get the results "Lar Ar Bar" afghans are hoping for.
    The "Balkanization" of Pakistan has already been discussed all over the net.

    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    If you look at the Pakistani military, political infrastructure, economy etc., you realise that Pasthuns are over-represented not under-represented. Pashtun Nationalism in the North West of Pakistan was a strong force in 1947 sure but it eroded away in the 1950s and 60s particularly under the tenure of Ayub Khan.
    Im sorry what? Over-represented? Pashtuns in the Pakistan army make up around 14% which is slightly under-represented, and the amount of Pakistan "Pashtuns" who became chief of staff can be counted on one hand even then you have people like Ayub Khan, who is not considered Pashtun, General Waheed Kakar who was a Hindku speaker and also General Yahya Khan another "Pashtun" was also a Qazlbash with Persian/Hindko his first language.

    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    On the subject of discrimination, I realise that the government of Pakistan has treated the tribes on the border like **** for a long time and this needs to change.And yet at the same time some of the blame also lies with the tribes themselves and their stubborn, backward attitude not only to change but to everything.
    Elders and religious leaders threaten punishment against tribes whose women register as voters and the population is openly hostile to health programmes such as Polio vaccinations. Just in 2007, a Pakistani doctor attempting to help the people of the region was blown up in his car. Add to that the fact that miners, builders, NGO's have often suffered violent attacks from militants in the region.
    I agree with this part, attitudes towards the NGO's and health programs need to change.

    However the millitancy in Pakistan is a whole other story.

    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Moreover the discrimination is not based on their Pashtun race- that much is pretty obvious- if Pakistan hated Pashtuns, why would it allow them to serve as Chief of Army Staff, President whatever The coin is very much two-sided and it's time people like you got that into your head.
    Answered above. Most Pashtuns who reached these positions were the "imran khan" type, none Pashto speaking "pathans"


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Lets assume for a second that Afghanistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa merge, would you be willing to give Hazara nationalists their own country, what if for some reason 50 years on the Tajik regions of the North want to be part of Tajikistan? Whatever your answer, let me just say all kinds of Nationalism is bad, be that Punjabi, Pashtun or Pakistani.
    I dont see how nationalim is bad? if ethnic groups want their own country then let them have it! Yes if hazaras demanded a independant hazaristan then they should be entitled to it.


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    All it does is fester hatred- it was Pashtun nationalism (to an extent at least), which led to the brutal persecution of the Hazaras throughout Afghan history. The genocide under King Abdur Rahman Khan in which as much as 60% of Hazaras were wiped out (according to UNHCR they were once the largest Afghan ethnic group constituting nearly 67% of the total population of the state before the 19th century.).
    I gave your reference a search and found this;

    "Disclaimer This is not a UNHCR publication. UNHCR is not responsible for, nor does it endorse, its content. Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher."

    I've never even heard of the word "Genocide" used to describe what abdur rahman did to the hazaras, yes he was a harsh ruler, did he only punish hazaras? nope, even Pashtuns came under his wrath and any Pashtun tribe that resisted him was sent to northern Afghanistan, which is why you now have a large Pashtun presence in Kunduz.

    Also the fact of 67% of Afghanistan bein hazaras is ridiculous, they were supposedly the majority ethnic group and no political say in the country? c'mon now.


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    The massacres under the Taliban in Hazarajat and other places- inspired by many factors but with ethnic nationalism and bigotry laying the foundation.
    Partly, that fact that the hazaras were a resistant group to the taliban also fueled taliban anger towards them.


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Similarly Pakistani Nationalism and bias against the Bengal population played a large role in encouraging the onset of Operation Searchlight in which hundreds of thousands were killed and my country divided.
    To be honest is shouldnt have been your country in the first place, an independant bengal, and option for NWFP to join Afghanisan, and an independant Balochistan listed on the referendum would have made life easier for everybody


    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    You see, I have no qualms in admitting the horrible mistakes Pakistan is making now or has made in the past and it's high time that some of the overproud Pasthuns saw sense as well. Afghanistan is as much a land of the Pashtuns as Pakistan if of the Punjabis. Sure they both may be the dominant ethnic group but doesn't mean to say other groups don't exist and shouldn't be accommodated. I absolutely despise people who think they're above others JUST BECAUSE they are Pasthuns (or whatever other group)- make your own lives and be proud of those not just because you happen to have been born into a so called warrior tribe.
    I dont recall me mentioning my race was above another, I dont recall mentioning that pashtuns were from a warrior tribe either, we dont live of the so called "Martial Races" theory on which the Pakistani army existed on (untill 1971).


    In the end it comes down to the fact that Pashtuns in Pakistan share much more with Afghans then they do with Punjabis
    Culturally we are closer to Afghan Pashtuns then to Punjabis
    Linguisticly Pashto is closer to Dari then to Urdu,Punjabi (even thought there have been efforts to promote urdu in KPK)
    Ethnically we are closer to Afghan pashtuns and evenTajiks then to Punjabis
    Historically, KPK was a part of Afghanistan and the residents were known as "Afghans" even when they were under British india's rule, it was only untill Pakistan was created that "Pakhtun", or even "Pathan" became the general name for us. Heck even old Pashtun men like my grandfather and uncles rufuse to call themselves Pakistani (understandably).
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    (Original post by kayjay)
    Because my family has lived there for as long as can be remembered, and still live there. I have therefore travelled to the country and thus overall have a higher affinity for the country. The geopolitics really don't come in to my day to day life or thinking living in the uk.

    On the other hand I have a country I have never visited and have no connection to.

    Your family have lived on the land for aslong as you can remember, which im sure was long before pakistans creation depending on your tribe. Your presence on the land outlives Pakistans rule over it, your identity just 70 years ago was Afghan, If India annexxed Pakistan would you drop your "Pakistani" identity and call yourself indian from then on?
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    (Original post by Yousafzai!)
    Even when that past could have shaped the very borders on which pakistan exists today? one should always speak out against an injustice no matter how long ago. Yes, No doubt they would probably vote for Pakistan, and that is becuase they simply no longer know about their own history. Go to schools in Pakhtunkhwa, you think they will be taught about the verses of khushal khan khattak, that ALL Pashtuns are Afghans or taught about the shady circumstances surrounding the durrrand line? Absolutely not, the Pakistanis cant risk it.




    The tribal Pashtuns are probably the only free Pashtuns in the whole in Pakistan, but if you think they like Pakistan, you'd be mistaken. Which is why an "islamic emirate of Waziristan" exists inside waziristan as a state within a state.
    The Pakistani army even made a deal in north waziristan due the fact that there were desertions in the Frontier Corps, Pashtuns would not fight Pahstuns and were willing to go against Pakistan for it.



    agreed, i predict Pakistans instability will increase, which along with rising nationalist thoughts and a stable afghan goverment will soon get the results "Lar Ar Bar" afghans are hoping for.
    The "Balkanization" of Pakistan has already been discussed all over the net.



    Im sorry what? Over-represented? Pashtuns in the Pakistan army make up around 14% which is slightly under-represented, and the amount of Pakistan "Pashtuns" who became chief of staff can be counted on one hand even then you have people like Ayub Khan, who is not considered Pashtun, General Waheed Kakar who was a Hindku speaker and also General Yahya Khan another "Pashtun" was also a Qazlbash with Persian/Hindko his first language.



    I agree with this part, attitudes towards the NGO's and health programs need to change.

    However the millitancy in Pakistan is a whole other story.



    Answered above. Most Pashtuns who reached these positions were the "imran khan" type, none Pashto speaking "pathans"




    I dont see how nationalim is bad? if ethnic groups want their own country then let them have it! Yes if hazaras demanded a independant hazaristan then they should be entitled to it.




    I gave your reference a search and found this;

    "Disclaimer This is not a UNHCR publication. UNHCR is not responsible for, nor does it endorse, its content. Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher."

    I've never even heard of the word "Genocide" used to describe what abdur rahman did to the hazaras, yes he was a harsh ruler, did he only punish hazaras? nope, even Pashtuns came under his wrath and any Pashtun tribe that resisted him was sent to northern Afghanistan, which is why you now have a large Pashtun presence in Kunduz.

    Also the fact of 67% of Afghanistan bein hazaras is ridiculous, they were supposedly the majority ethnic group and no political say in the country? c'mon now.




    Partly, that fact that the hazaras were a resistant group to the taliban also fueled taliban anger towards them.




    To be honest is shouldnt have been your country in the first place, an independant bengal, and option for NWFP to join Afghanisan, and an independant Balochistan listed on the referendum would have made life easier for everybody




    I dont recall me mentioning my race was above another, I dont recall mentioning that pashtuns were from a warrior tribe either, we dont live of the so called "Martial Races" theory on which the Pakistani army existed on (untill 1971).


    In the end it comes down to the fact that Pashtuns in Pakistan share much more with Afghans then they do with Punjabis
    Culturally we are closer to Afghan Pashtuns then to Punjabis
    Linguisticly Pashto is closer to Dari then to Urdu,Punjabi (even thought there have been efforts to promote urdu in KPK)
    Ethnically we are closer to Afghan pashtuns and evenTajiks then to Punjabis
    Historically, KPK was a part of Afghanistan and the residents were known as "Afghans" even when they were under British india's rule, it was only untill Pakistan was created that "Pakhtun", or even "Pathan" became the general name for us. Heck even old Pashtun men like my grandfather and uncles rufuse to call themselves Pakistani (understandably).
    Each country has its own history curriculum biased towards that particular nation- I used to live in Pakistan. The changes I would make are including the 1971 war and the lessons learned, the history of the Pashtun people for the KP curriculum as well as the struggle in Baluchistan and the reasons for it etc. What no fool is ever gonna do is indoctrinate kids with (BS) nationalistic ideology in favour of a foreign nation. Khattak might have said some crap about all Pashtuns being Afghan but that's an opinion- a subjective one which even most Pashtun people disagree with.

    LOL "Pashtuns will not fight Pashtuns". Is that some kind of deranged joke? Pashtuns have been fighting each other for a very long time. Ever heard of the Afghan Civil War after the Russians left- sure you'll come up with the excuse that it was funded by foreign powers but it was most definitely was not fought by them. Even now, in the Pakistani tribal regions, there are pro-government tribes and anti-government tribes and pro-TTP and anti-TTP and neutral and whatever all at each others throats.

    The Frontier Corps is a pretty poorly trained rag tag force and I would back the TTP and anti-government tribes to give it a damn good fight. However bring in the regular army and they stand absolutely zero chance. Even you, I'm sure will admit that the Pakistani army despite its various indiscretions is a highly capable and professional force.

    Yeah that's right, all the Pashtuns high up in the Pakistani establishment suddenly become "not real Pashtuns" right? Yeah of course they're the Imran Khan type- he has travelled to Waziristan to the homeplace of the Burki tribe and appreciates where he comes from but how the **** would you expect someone who speaks just Pashto to reach a good level in a country where most people don't know a word of it. Stephen P. Cohen of the Brookings Institution and Professor Hasan Askari Rizvi of Pakistan, indicate roughly that the Pashtun representation in the army is between 15-22% among officers and between 20-25% among the regular rank-and-file. Even at the minimum level that is on the dot representation and anything above that is over-representation.

    Yes, well done you finally hit the nail on the head, the attitude towards NGOs and education and health does need to change and in that regard, the backwardness of the tribes of that region is as much their own fault as it is the Pakistani governments. You agree no? Don't get me wrong, I despise the current PPP government but the fact of the matter is the little it has done or the army's done has been thrown back so....

    Nationalism is against Islam and even ignoring that it only breeds hatred and contempt for the others. Being proud and loyal are a whole different level from being nationalist- the distance between going from moderately nationalistic or ethnocentric (if there is such a place) to being a bigot against people don't belong to your little group isn't far. I've been there tbh but at the end of the day, although I will always be a proud Pakistani and patriotic, I refuse to defend my country in cases where it has done wrong such as 1971.

    You on the other hand seem to be justifying the Taliban massacre of Hazaras completely underplaying what Abdur Rehman did to them. The term genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Separating the extent of Rehman's suppression of the Hazaras from his other actions is very important. Read your history- Hazaras WERE picked out and targeted. Sunni clerics were sent to every mosque in Hazarajat, they were forced to pay extremely heavy taxes. In the Shikhali district an estimated 7,000 head of cattle were taken away from Hazaras and 350 men and women of the Jaghori district were sold at Kabul markets each at the price of 20-21 As. Around 60% of the Hazara population was wiped out under this tyrant and whole towns and villages massacred- even if you don't (somehow) classify it as genocide, you'll no doubt agree- as almost every historian does- that Pashtun nationalism played a huge role this repression which brings us back to my point of "Nationalism often encourages bad things blah blah blah" which I believe I should have proven by now.

    Yeah? Well guess what, we have our country. Lets focus on the present shall we- we can't change the past now. And lets face it, whatever the reasons you come up with and even if a referendum was completely fair, the Pashtun population of Pakistan will wholeheartedly embrace it as their homeland with a massive majority.

    NOW, we should probably both relax a bit and stop arguing. Here listen to a song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyabVj_EQKk
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    (Original post by Yousafzai!)
    Yousafzai which belonged to the Abdali confederation of tribes in Kandahar decended from Hepthalites

    The whole "israeli" thing is bs.
    Ah, thanks for the info, it's a relief to know

    (Original post by Yousafzai!)
    "Pull out your sword and slay any one, that says Pashtun and Afghan are not one! Arabs know this and so do Romans: Afghans are Pashtuns, Pashtuns are Afghans." - Khushal Khan Khattak

    All Pashtuns are "Ethnically" Afghan
    Well said
    Although the slaying part is a bit too much lol :rolleyes:
    Wherever we are, whatever passport we hold, we should not forget or should at least acknowledge who we really are!
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    Khan et kooja dari, meman et shawoma.
    Khan et kooja dari, meman et shawoma.
    Khan et kooja dari, meman et shawoma
    Khan et kooja dariiii, meman et shawom aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa!
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    And it has subtitles for those of us, like me, who embarrass ourselves every time we meet a relative
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    (Original post by me...x)


    And it has subtitles for those of us, like me, who embarrass ourselves every time we meet a relative
    Thanks It's such a lovely song! I haven't heard it before!
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    (Original post by *Funky-buddha*)
    The tribal borders were not included in that.
    They have their own laws and both sides near the border are ruled by tribes whom have alliances or blood links/ links by marriage.
    I think it says something when Afghanistan claims the territory, the one thing they and the Taliban seem to agree on and the Pakistani government only come with tanks and the like to kill pashtuns, before leaving.
    It's quite disgusting that due to their lack of being able to mark and guard a border, they refuse to give documentation to border people.

    The ones entitled to both nationalities support being left alone and not killed by the Pakistani military.

    Pakistan has a racist political group killing pashtuns and telling the to get out of the country and that's for pashtuns who are Pakistanis. So yeah....

    No offence but since you're 3/4 punjabi, you seem to be very unaware of a lot that goes on/ the culture.

    I also, concur with what the other member 'Pakthun' said in reference to your other debate.
    Although the majority of people in the establishment (especially the army) remain Punjabi, Pashtuns are way over-represented in the Pakistani armed forces. If you look at the Army Chiefs of Staff of the military, Pashtuns are wildly over-represented- 50% have been Pashtuns. There have been 4 Punjabi chiefs of staff and 4 Pashtuns, many others have been non-Punjabi such General Musharraf. Does this reek of discrimination to you? No, in fact the only people that feel like they have been somehow wronged are the tribal people and to a large extent their condition is their own fault- what else except isolation can you expect when you blow up the schools and hospitals the government builds for you? What else do you expect when you kill every domestic aid worker sent there and kidnap the foreign ones.

    As to the "killing Pashtuns" BS, the majority of people in Khyber Pukhtoonkhwa support the war against the terrorist groups cooped up in areas such as Waziristan who have made their life hell. Ever heard of the suicide bombings in Peshawar, Mardan, Buner?! All the fault of groups such as TTP who advanced within 60 miles of the capital when the Pakistani army made a truce a couple of years back. Perhaps you want the Pakistanis to suffer the same fate as Afghans? Our minorities treated to genocide, our women locked up in the house, every game under the sun banned... because that's what you seem to be supporting when you go against the actions of the army in the tribal areas. Sure innocents die but the war is necessary.

    The people who broke the country were Pashtuns from Yahya Khan to Tikka Khan only because they were in positions of power. The person who drove the country forward the most was Pashtun... discrimination my arse.

    I'am a Pashtun myself from the Niazi tribe and there is no discrimination whatsoever against our people in Pakistan.
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    Pa Poza De Chargul...

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    is this the same as pathaan or am I confused? or is pukhtoon something different
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    Nah, all the same thing, different names.
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    woah
    go pathaan power
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    Assalamualaikum. Calling everyone for help in order to save Dr. Aafia Siddique. The details are in the link here-
    http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Fre.../?fvhDcbb&pv=3
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    LOL. OMG OMG OMG. DIDN'T JKNOW THEY HAVE THIS ON HERE!!! WOWW!!!!! :eek: :cool: Asalamualykum!!! :') FUNNY.
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    Ok well im not really pathan but hazarewal or hindko speaking...from abottabad...so am i still eligible to join or what:P
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    Salaamona tool tha , zhere khattak yama. tool sungere year ?
    Zoya khan ,ther chitha nar year ?
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    I didnt know a thread like this exists Pakhair everybody!!!
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    Pa Khair man. Was going to make one but saw this.

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