The Student Room Group

Your views on the Monarchy?

Scroll to see replies

Reply 40
If we become a republic will we all suddenly be £1,000 better off? Will we suddenly have no more political scandals? Will all of the problems with the Civil Service bureaucracy and efficiency suddenly disappear?

No. It will have no difference what so ever on anyone apart from the self-serving politicans who aren't content to be a 'mere' Prime Minister. I'll let Stephen Fry do the talking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ2Dggq4_lc&feature=player_embedded
Original post by L i b
I'm very positive about the Monarchy. I fully support having an apolitical head of state, and one that can give considerable guidance to our elected politicians. I think it'd be an utter travesty if Britain were ever to end up with some drab inoffensive-but-unsuccessful politician sitting as some sort of ridiculous President. I'd prefer an appointed system to that.

On a cultural rather than political side, it is absolutely fundamental to what I understand by my national identity. My family fought for the Royalist side in the Civil War, so it's become even more of a personal attachment. I don't think Britishness would be recognisable without a monarchy; it'd certainly be no fun.

This, really.
Original post by manchild007
a Presidential system would be cheaper.

Because elections are cheap, aren't they? The cost would be at least the same price to run - then add on top of that the price of elections.
Reply 42
Original post by Algorithm69
1. No, the Monarchy are not democratic and they do have vested interests, most notably its own survival. You are honestly defending an institution that has produced Prince Charles and Prince Harry?

2. No, an elected President is no more likely to become a dictator than a Monarch as long as there is a system of separation of powers, checks and balances, a codified constitution and Bill of Rights.

3. The lobbying system in America is completely different than the UK and stems from its First Amendment. Our election process can be set by us.

4. Again, your training argument is not founded on anything. We can set the training time of the President. We can set the time-frame in which they attain power following the election.

5. The Monarch is advised by unbiased civil servants? That's what you call the Privy Council? I don't see how this point has any relevance. The Monarch can choose its own advisors, so could a President.

6. History is full of corrupt and immoral Monarchs


1. Yes, a constitutional monarchy is much more in keeping with the principles of democracy than a republic because in a constitutional monarchy no office has the ability to undermine the democratic process.

And yes their only interest is self-preservation, and they can only ensure this by keeping republicans like yourself in the minority. And they can only do that by ensuring any complaints of being undemocratic levied against them are insubstantial.

And I tend not to judge an institution based on the people in it. If you did, you would similarly reject any system of an elected head of state based on past and present elected heads of state.

Charles is an old buffoon like everyone his age brought up in his time, a sad relic of a time long gone. Harry is a typical young man, a very respectable and perfectly well behaved one, who would quite like to have a life of his own not continuously monitored.

2. Yes they are, because regardless of a system of separation of powers, all the powers are held by the presently elected party. Hence, every office in the land is under the control of the same people, or person. The only countries to survive this fate are those where every office in the land is under no one's control.

3. The lobbyist system in the US may differ, but only in terminology and not in function. The same effect is seen in many different democracies across the world, including in part here. An elected head of state serves those who are able to get him elected first, party second, and the interests of the people last.

How would you have liked it if for the last 30 years the president of england had also been under the sway of Rupert Murdoch? because that's what you're proposing as beneficial to our country.

4. You can't train a president for a decade before taking power, they have to take power before the next opening of parliament. That would mean anywhere from a day to 3 months, if you held the elections always at the start of the summer recess. That's still not very long at all. Not compared to the 30 years minimum training our next monarch (who will not be Charles) will have.

5. Yes, but a President, not being independent, will choose advisers who are similarly not independent. Often his friends and election officials and other members and supporters of his parts. (read often as always)

we're blessed to have a fully independent civil service here because we're blessed with a fully independent monarchy.

6. The examples you are so wonderfully cherry picking are absolute monarchies. There has never been a corrupt constitutional monarchy.





If one change could and should be made, the position of head of state should not be hereditary but given to civil servants. The monarchy should not be abolished, that would be a big mistake.



Final and most important flaw in your argument; implicit assumption that more democratic systems are inherently better systems of governance. Countered simply by defeating the axioms of democratic systems; that all voters are rational and well informed. Disproved by counterexample using the average voter.

Therefore, my final point would be that keeping the monarchy is beneficial because it is less democratic, and fully democratic systems should be avoided because democracy is a failed premise.
Reply 43
Original post by The Mr Z
Charles is an old buffoon like everyone his age brought up in his time, a sad relic of a time long gone. Harry is a typical young man, a very respectable and perfectly well behaved one, who would quite like to have a life of his own not continuously monitored.

Why on earth would you say Prince Charles is a 'buffoon'? He's worked exceptionally hard as Prince of Wales and organisations like the Prince's Trust have done exceptional work under his direction. Whether you agree with his opinions or not, he's certainly not afraid to put them out and defend them where needs be: how many men have built a bloody town to demonstrate the ability of good planning and architecture to create a socially cohesive society?

People of the generation above me seem to love criticising him for his adultery. So-bloody-what? He got pushed into a marriage he clearly did not want because it was thought to be suitable for a young prince. He regretted it, and Diana being bonkers hardly helped. As failings go, it's hardly an unpardonable one - not to mention that he's one of the few Princes of Wales to not shack up with loads of fashionable tarts as the mood took him.
Reply 44
Original post by L i b
Why on earth would you say Prince Charles is a 'buffoon'? He's worked exceptionally hard as Prince of Wales and organisations like the Prince's Trust have done exceptional work under his direction. Whether you agree with his opinions or not, he's certainly not afraid to put them out and defend them where needs be: how many men have built a bloody town to demonstrate the ability of good planning and architecture to create a socially cohesive society?

People of the generation above me seem to love criticising him for his adultery. So-bloody-what? He got pushed into a marriage he clearly did not want because it was thought to be suitable for a young prince. He regretted it, and Diana being bonkers hardly helped. As failings go, it's hardly an unpardonable one - not to mention that he's one of the few Princes of Wales to not shack up with loads of fashionable tarts as the mood took him.


considering I was actually defending the monarchy...

the problem is that his job is not to put his opinions out, its to be impartial in these matters. He's done a lot of good and a lot of harm. His private matters are quite another thing, but as a public spokesperson he is required to give an informed opinion that is in the best interests of the people, and not to interferre in matters which he is unqualified to arbitrate. Inner City planning permission and the NHS come into those categories of places he has interfered to the detriment of the general public.

He is perfectly entitled to personal opinions, but as a public figure he is not entitled to bring those into his public business.

As for Diana, she wasn't crazy, she was very sane and very savvy. She knew exactly what she was doing and managed a very good public image despite being a thoroughly untrustworthy person.
Reply 45
The monarchy is what keeps the class system alive. It is elitist and in what way have the royals earned their position? They weren't put there on merit, they were born into it. I'd say you should dump em. They are also very expensive to keep going. That money could be much better spent on the military, for instance or on roads or on just about anything.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 46
Original post by L i b
I'm very positive about the Monarchy. I fully support having an apolitical head of state, and one that can give considerable guidance to our elected politicians. I think it'd be an utter travesty if Britain were ever to end up with some drab inoffensive-but-unsuccessful politician sitting as some sort of ridiculous President. I'd prefer an appointed system to that.

On a cultural rather than political side, it is absolutely fundamental to what I understand by my national identity. My family fought for the Royalist side in the Civil War, so it's become even more of a personal attachment. I don't think Britishness would be recognisable without a monarchy; it'd certainly be no fun.


traitor to the people
Reply 47
Original post by DYKWIA
The monarchy is what keeps the class system alive. It is elitist and in what way have the royals earned their position? They weren't put there on merit, they were born into it. I'd say you should dump em. They are also very expensive to keep going. That money could be much better spent on the military, for instance or on roads or on just about anything.


financial arguments are irrelevant, they cost 70p per capita per annum which is, frankly, nothing. Divert all that money to the military and you could only buy a few more missiles. Ditto with roads. Plus they bring enough money in that they don't really cost or gain us anything worth mentioning.

They were born into it, but they do have merit stemming from lifelong training for the role and decades of experience that could never be matched by an elected head of state. And since when were politicians chosen on merit anyway?
I love them, proud of our history with them.

And very pleased with all the money they make us!
Reply 49
the monarchy serve no purpose to us in a 21st century democracy if you are going to argue that the monarchy bring us money then i shall argue that we should sell the rights to be our monarch every 10 years to the highest bidder as that will bring us even more money
Reply 50
Original post by The Mr Z
considering I was actually defending the monarchy...

the problem is that his job is not to put his opinions out, its to be impartial in these matters. He's done a lot of good and a lot of harm. His private matters are quite another thing, but as a public spokesperson he is required to give an informed opinion that is in the best interests of the people, and not to interferre in matters which he is unqualified to arbitrate. Inner City planning permission and the NHS come into those categories of places he has interfered to the detriment of the general public.


I don't think Prince Charles has ever 'interfered' with anything relating to planning consents, and I've followed his architectural interests quite avidly.

What you castigate him for, I praise him. If there's someone who can provide leadership on issues of national importance, who better than the future King? He's not saying anything that conflicts with the government, so there's no question of future constitutional issues arising.

He is perfectly entitled to personal opinions, but as a public figure he is not entitled to bring those into his public business.


You mean you think he should just shut up and keep his opinions to himself? What sort of entitlement is that?

As for Diana, she wasn't crazy, she was very sane and very savvy. She knew exactly what she was doing and managed a very good public image despite being a thoroughly untrustworthy person.


The well documented bouts of depression, eating disorders and all that would suggest to me that, although perhaps not 'crazy', she was certainly mentally unstable.
Reply 51
Original post by Three Mile Sprint
I love them, proud of our history with them.

And very pleased with all the money they make us!


that's funny i don't remember receiving my cheque from the queen this month.......
Original post by Jacktri
that's funny i don't remember receiving my cheque from the queen this month.......


Goes to the government my man, the ammount they make for us of Tourism alone, is staggering, this is before we go into the private buisness the royal family invests in.

What we pay for there upkeep and allowance, is minute compared to what they make in returns for the country.
Reply 53
Original post by Three Mile Sprint
Goes to the government my man, the ammount they make for us of Tourism alone, is staggering, this is before we go into the private buisness the royal family invests in.

What we pay for there upkeep and allowance, is minute compared to what they make in returns for the country.


the royal family got all their money from their ancestors who abused our ancestors why would you support that?
Original post by Jacktri
the royal family got all their money from their ancestors who abused our ancestors why would you support that?


Really?
The royal family is technically bankrupt when it comes to liquid assets.

They have a £41million a year stipend from the government, and they pay back in revenue and tax £160 million.

And they are responsible for about £120 billion from tourists.

As for why I would support them, we are a mongrel nation, they have been our royal family for a thousand years now, and they are entwined with everything that makes us who we are a nation.

I also don't hate people for the act's of there forefathers, that's why I don't stab Itallians on site for conqouring Britannia all those years ago.
Reply 55
Original post by Three Mile Sprint
Really?
The royal family is technically bankrupt when it comes to liquid assets.

They have a £41million a year stipend from the government, and they pay back in revenue and tax £160 million.

And they are responsible for about £120 billion from tourists.

As for why I would support them, we are a mongrel nation, they have been our royal family for a thousand years now, and they are entwined with everything that makes us who we are a nation.

I also don't hate people for the act's of there forefathers, that's why I don't stab Itallians on site for conqouring Britannia all those years ago.


the royal family has changed several times in the last 1000 years. £120 billion attributing the royal family to 100% of tourism is ridiculous. They pay back 160 million on taxes well do you know who else pays taxes?? everyone.
I think the benefit of the monarchy over presidency is that they rule for life and do not waste time/money on election campaigns (which would cost the country astronomical sums anyway). The institution is somewhat socially cohesive because their rule endures through generations and helps to unite people under a common person, regardless of class or political view. The monarchy never has to do secretive deals with the media in order to sway public opinion and they often have to put aside their own views to represent the views of their people. They generally have a very calm disposition.

They never get to retire, serving the country loyally until death and work throughout their whole lives. Almost every event they go to helps to cement foreign relations and (except a few mishaps) they are generally good diplomats, having been taught since childhood. The benefits to charity are also large. The princes trust, for example, has raised millions and the amount of money alone which is generated by royal appearances, in the name of charity, is amazing.

I think generally the pros outweigh the cons. The monarchy make excellent cultural icons and, without the money which comes from the civil list, they would not be able to continue their roles as diplomats and charity workers. Besides, who would want Tony Blair on the pound coins? :rolleyes:
Reply 57
Original post by Cornish student
I think the benefit of the monarchy over presidency is that they rule for life and do not waste time/money on election campaigns (which would cost the country astronomical sums anyway). The institution is somewhat socially cohesive because their rule endures through generations and helps to unite people under a common person, regardless of class or political view. The monarchy never has to do secretive deals with the media in order to sway public opinion and they often have to put aside their own views to represent the views of their people. They generally have a very calm disposition.

They never get to retire, serving the country loyally until death and work throughout their whole lives. Almost every event they go to helps to cement foreign relations and (except a few mishaps) they are generally good diplomats, having been taught since childhood. The benefits to charity are also large. The princes trust, for example, has raised millions and the amount of money alone which is generated by royal appearances, in the name of charity, is amazing.

I think generally the pros outweigh the cons. The monarchy make excellent cultural icons and, without the money which comes from the civil list, they would not be able to continue their roles as diplomats and charity workers. Besides, who would want Tony Blair on the pound coins? :rolleyes:


we have a prime minister and election campaigns so your first argument is destroyed.

Having fancy dinners. Eating fancy food. Traveling around the world. Meeting powerful people. Sounds like such a difficult hard life........

Why would we put Tony Blair on a pound coin do you think they have Obama and Bush on dollar bills?
Original post by Jacktri
the royal family has changed several times in the last 1000 years. £120 billion attributing the royal family to 100% of tourism is ridiculous. They pay back 160 million on taxes well do you know who else pays taxes?? everyone.



Ridiculous, hardly it's actually a "low" estimate of how much they bring us in.

Yes we all pay taxes, but very few of us pay four times in taxes the amount that we earn, like the royals do.

If they could us a billion a year to maintain and gave us not a penny , I would still vote for keeping them as they are an integril part of our culture and history, and that's worth more to me as a British Citizen than money.

As it is, they are saving me £2.50 a year in direct taxes from the £160 million they draw in, and they are doing our crippled economy a lot of good from tourism, so that's just more reasons for me ,a person who cares about the state of my country, to keep them around.
Reply 59
Original post by Three Mile Sprint
Ridiculous, hardly it's actually a "low" estimate of how much they bring us in.

Yes we all pay taxes, but very few of us pay four times in taxes the amount that we earn, like the royals do.

If they could us a billion a year to maintain and gave us not a penny , I would still vote for keeping them as they are an integril part of our culture and history, and that's worth more to me as a British Citizen than money.

As it is, they are saving me £2.50 a year in direct taxes from the £160 million they draw in, and they are doing our crippled economy a lot of good from tourism, so that's just more reasons for me ,a person who cares about the state of my country, to keep them around.


If they were paying 4 x of what they earn in taxes it would be unsustainable and they would eventually become bankrupt.

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending