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Not becoming fluent in chosen language(s) by end of your degree.

Hi :biggrin: I'm not at degree level but would like to progress to that.I have been a bit caught up in looking at uni courses for languages,watching films in german(for ps) and trying to improve my grammar(still pretty shaky) and trying to be less of a perfectionist when speaking,I tend to concentrate on grammar aspect and get muddled.Generally,getting excited about what the future could hold.

Then it occured to me,What if,after all the time and effort(and money!) you are not fluent?

I am willing to try my hardest,but I worry this is not enough.My grammar knowledge is poor and I find i hard to remember all the rules when in high speed conversations.
I just wonder,if I am finding aspects hard now,should I continue to degree level? I adore german and the country (and another language too hopefully) but beat myself up over every mistake I make,and I wonder,if I ever progress to uni,that this crippling berating myself over every mistake mentality I have will impede my learning=not being fluent.

:biggrin: Anyone who read/understood any of that,thanks. I just am having a minor freak out. Not good enough and all that.
(edited 12 years ago)

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Reply 1
It seems like you're passionate about the language and if you put in the effort I'm sure you'll be fluent by the time you graduate. It also depends on what you class as 'being fluent'.

It's true what you say though - I've met a few people who've graduated in German, yet still have a lot of problems in everyday use of the language. Then again, they hadn't immersed themselves into the language and culture during their year abroad, so it's no real surprise.
Reply 2
[title]...is completely normal.

You're not supposed to be fluent at the end of a language degree. You're expected, however, to have solid bases and a good knowledge of learning techniques and tools to be able to build upon those by immersing yourself.
Getting fluent is then all about the time you spend working and immersing yourself in the language(s). You may end your degree fluent, but it won't be because you've finished it, it will be thanks to all the hard work you've done during this degree. I'm not saying a degree is useless, far from it - only that you can't expect to be fluent by the end of the degree merely by showing up to class.

Plus, everybody has their own learning rhythm. Some will learn fast, others will take a bit more time. It's not important. It's not a race. Learning a language is a life-long process, there's always something new to learn.
Don't beat yourself up for doing mistakes : you learn by making them. Just enjoy learning the language!

edit : regarding the "don't have time to think about how to say stuff in a conversation" problem, don't worry either, it comes with time and (loads of) practice.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 3
Well, defining fluency is difficult. Do you mean fluent enough to have proper conversations with natives or fluent enough to write a novel in the language? :p:
work outside of your normal uni time. i.e spend time perfecting it on your own, you cant learn everything in just your classes
Reply 5
Don't worry about it. Practice makes, well, near-perfect lol. As previous posters have said, you need to immerse yourself in the language. Spend more time conversing in German with other people and if they can correct your mistakes, great! I don't know anything about German grammar but once you can memorise key or often used phrases, speaking becomes alot easier.

My French teacher wasn't completely fluent when she left uni but she said that her French greatly improved when she lived in France afterwards. It guess your fluency improves as you increasingly put your language skills into practice.
Reply 6
Thanks,really settled a few worries I had :biggrin: I will apply things you told me to language learning now,and hopefully it will stick.I just need to relax it seems. I spend far too much time worrying about being 'fluent',grammar,and trying to sound fancy(not simple sentences all the time)
Reply 7
Original post by Lollyage
Well, defining fluency is difficult. Do you mean fluent enough to have proper conversations with natives or fluent enough to write a novel in the language? :p:


That's true,people do have different definitions of fluent.I would say being able to have proper conversations with natives without too much hesitation would be what I want.
Reply 8
If you can't really speak the language fluently or read or write in it, you can still get the degree. That's how it works at SOAS anyway.
Reply 9
Original post by Picaa
If you can't really speak the language fluently or read or write in it, you can still get the degree. That's how it works at SOAS anyway.


How does that work? How can you be awarded a degree in a language(implying you can speak it I would guess) but you can't really speak or read it...?

Sorry,I'm just confused by that.
Reply 10
Original post by OddThings
How does that work? How can you be awarded a degree in a language(implying you can speak it I would guess) but you can't really speak or read it...?

Sorry,I'm just confused by that.


Well everyone gets a 1st or a 2:1 except very bad students who just partied, who get a 2:2. In theory you could scrape a pass and not manage a third. If anyone did this (and it never seems to happen) they wouldn't have grasped the language at all. As a certain number of marks are easy to get (40%) and above that you need to show some sort of competency.
With a European language like German that you've taken to A Level, I'd say if you put the work in then you can expect a high level of fluency by the end - Hannah Dru being a good example here. And as others have mentioned, the year abroad and the extra work you put in yourself is key - just turning up to class won't magically turn you into a fluent speaker. Since you're already working hard you seem to be on the right track there, particularly if you manage to get some more speaking practice in.

However, I'd say it's very optimistic, arguably unrealistic, to expect to be fluent in a very difficult ab initio language (Arabic, Mandarin, Japanese etc), as a 4 year degree with only 1 year in the country isn't going to be anywhere near enough for those languages, which require years and years of immersion to master them.
Reply 12
Original post by OddThings
How does that work? How can you be awarded a degree in a language(implying you can speak it I would guess) but you can't really speak or read it...?

Sorry,I'm just confused by that.


You definitely don't need to be fluent in a language to get a good degree in it. :smile: Most people - myself included - aren't, in my experience.
Original post by wes
You definitely don't need to be fluent in a language to get a good degree in it. :smile: Most people - myself included - aren't, in my experience.


How do you define fluency? :holmes: Because I think most people would say that the level you have, given that you've lived, worked and studied in Paris years, is fluent.
Reply 14
IMO it's more than possible to become fluent in 4 years (and I don't mean just by sitting in class making notes) but I'm going to bet that very few are actually fluent by the end of it. I did ab initio language in my first year (as in, the actual first year class ab initio full degree students take) and wow...based on what was covered, I'd have got so much further if I just self-studied, not gonna lie.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 15
I'm sure it is possible to become fluent (or very close) if you put in lots of work yourself. I don't think you can do it just by showing up to class. I reckon it is the norm not to be fluent after your degree, but still at an advanced level.
Reply 16
So,if I put the work in,I could perhaps not become amazingly fluent,but fairly competent? I'd like that,and would like to think I would improve and grow,so to speak after a degree,eventually getting better.I'm planning on doing German with ab inito spanish possibly.
Reply 17
Original post by xmarilynx
With a European language like German that you've taken to A Level, I'd say if you put the work in then you can expect a high level of fluency by the end - Hannah Dru being a good example here. And as others have mentioned, the year abroad and the extra work you put in yourself is key - just turning up to class won't magically turn you into a fluent speaker. Since you're already working hard you seem to be on the right track there, particularly if you manage to get some more speaking practice in.

However, I'd say it's very optimistic, arguably unrealistic, to expect to be fluent in a very difficult ab initio language (Arabic, Mandarin, Japanese etc), as a 4 year degree with only 1 year in the country isn't going to be anywhere near enough for those languages, which require years and years of immersion to master them.


Thanks :smile: How about ab inito spanish? I am not interested in arabic,mandarin etc.. as part of a degree but learn Japanese as a hobby.
It's called the Year Abroad.

When you just have to speak, and read, and hear, and write the language all day every day for nine months, you pick up more than you will during all of your language lessons put together. Because you're not just doing it for a few hours a week, you don't forget it, and you don't get the 'oh god, what do I say for this?' after a few weeks. Immersion is the key difference between having a degree in the language, and being genuinely fluent - ie being able to speak, listen, read and write in the language at will.
Original post by OddThings
Hi :biggrin: I'm not at degree level but would like to progress to that.I have been a bit caught up in looking at uni courses for languages,watching films in german(for ps) and trying to improve my grammar(still pretty shaky) and trying to be less of a perfectionist when speaking,I tend to concentrate on grammar aspect and get muddled.Generally,getting excited about what the future could hold.

Then it occured to me,What if,after all the time and effort(and money!) you are not fluent?

I am willing to try my hardest,but I worry this is not enough.My grammar knowledge is poor and I find i hard to remember all the rules when in high speed conversations.
I just wonder,if I am finding aspects hard now,should I continue to degree level? I adore german and the country (and another language too hopefully) but beat myself up over every mistake I make,and I wonder,if I ever progress to uni,that this crippling berating myself over every mistake mentality I have will impede my learning=not being fluent.

:biggrin: Anyone who read/understood any of that,thanks. I just am having a minor freak out. Not good enough and all that.

Definitely continue to degree level, it's not all about becoming fluent, you should genuinly enjoy the subject and you'd probably regret it if you didn't take it.

I'm a terrible perfectionist and I still beat myself up about every little mistake I make (I just started work yesterday where I work in a room where everyone except me and one other girl are native German speakers and I'm constantly speaking and writing German thinking "God I bet they think I'm crap!". I've not been overly confident this week because of the high standards I set myself. I don't think it will impede you though as long as you learn from your mistakes, put in the hard work and don't agonise other things too much. I'm doing ok at least!


Original post by xmarilynx
With a European language like German that you've taken to A Level, I'd say if you put the work in then you can expect a high level of fluency by the end - Hannah Dru being a good example here. And as others have mentioned, the year abroad and the extra work you put in yourself is key - just turning up to class won't magically turn you into a fluent speaker. Since you're already working hard you seem to be on the right track there, particularly if you manage to get some more speaking practice in.

However, I'd say it's very optimistic, arguably unrealistic, to expect to be fluent in a very difficult ab initio language (Arabic, Mandarin, Japanese etc), as a 4 year degree with only 1 year in the country isn't going to be anywhere near enough for those languages, which require years and years of immersion to master them.


Thank you!!

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