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Will Michael Schumacher win another championship or race?

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    (Original post by Raiden10)
    He isn't running rings around Schumacher. The truth is, Schumacher has been faster, during the race, for 4 of the last 5 races.
    Since returning MSC has beaten Ros 7 times, Ros has beaten MSC 20 times.

    First season:
    Rosberg 142 points
    MSC 72 points

    This season so far:
    Rosberg 48
    MSC 32

    Last 5 races as you've said MSC has been better:
    Rosberg: 22 points
    MSC: 18 points

    The truth is, the 7 times world champion is being beaten by someone who hasn't won a F1 race.

    "faster" or not, Rosberg is getting the results and points mean prizes.

    Michael Schumacher is treading unknown territory. What happens to a 42-year old in a formula-1 car, if they decide to compete for real?
    BAR is 39 and still racing, DLR is 40 and still in the car occationally, Badoer is 40 and was used to race, Fisichella is 40 and still trying to get a race seat, so MSC is not exactly ancient.
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    (Original post by Steeps)
    BAR is 39 and still racing, DLR is 40 and still in the car occationally, Badoer is 40 and was used to race, Fisichella is 40 and still trying to get a race seat, so MSC is not exactly ancient.
    BAR hasn't been out of the sport for 3 years, he's evolved with the changing F1 cars and tyres. Also, at 39 he's consistently being outqualified by rookie Maldonado nowadays. So if Schumacher is being beaten by a driver who has been here for 5 years, then you have no grounds to use BAR as a counter-argument if he's being beaten by a guy who's done just half a season. So that example: fail.

    DLR: So good at 40 he lost his drive half way through his season :yy:

    Badoer: lol...really? :rolleyes: We know how brilliantly he did, he lasted an impressive 2 GPs before getting sacked.

    Fisi is pretty decent, but I would be surprised if he comes back in 2 years and is as close to a driver like Rosberg.

    I think the fact that the current F1 drivers respect MSC's comeback comes to show he's been decent. Not great, obviously not good as his prime but anybody who expected him to be probably doesn't understand the sport.

    Unsurprisingly it's the older champions and ex-team mates who criticise him nowadays, which is expected because older drivers have always been are more bitter/jealous of him than admiring like the younger generation drivers.

    It's funny because when Schumacher used to win all his races, people said it's not him it's because of his front-running car.
    Yet now all of a sudden if Schumacher isn't winning, people are saying it's because of him and don't consider the mid-field car he's in.
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    No but more importantly rosberg is doing better on a consistent basis. Schumacher is selfish he should retire and give others with more desire a chance
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    He's shown flashes of his old brilliance this year, most notably in Canada; but he's never going to challenge the front runners in that truck of a Mercedes.
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    He isn't in a winning car so comparing Schumi's performance now to his winning days is a flawed comparison.

    It doesn't make sense that if he's slow today automatically people declare that he was always a genuinely slow driver and won all his previous championships because of the car. Again, a flawed logic as this assumes that the 42 year old is the same as he was before.

    If Mercedes have the fastest car next year and Schumi still doesn't win it will show that the guy is most definitely not the same as before...which will confirm that 1) his two careers can't be compared on a fair basis and 2) that in 21st century F1, age is a factor.

    Finally, people need to get this idea out of their head that fastest car = win and that it's as simple as that.

    This constant need to discount Vettel (and Schumacher for his championships) because he's in a fastest car , always making his wins out to be so 'easy'.

    Well if winning in such a fast car is so easy, why has Webber not won a single race this season?
    It takes more than the fastest car to win. Having the fastest car is just ONE of the many requirements.

    It also doesn't make sense for people to say if Schumacher was in the RBR he would be winning. It's possible, but I don't think it's that simple.

    As of right now you'd have to say Webber is faster, more consistent and generally driving better than Schumacher. If Webber hasn't won, it shows that even Schumi in his current form may not win races in a winning car.

    He can have a piss poor comeback. When he leaves, all one has to do is open the record books and see his name everywhere.

    A truly spectacular driver. He's raced against Senna, Prost and Alonso in his first career. Competing against the greats just adds to his credibility.

    It's pretty categorically agreed amongst former and present F1 drivers that he's the 2nd best driver in F1 history after Senna.
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    I am not a fortune teller.
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    (Original post by Marc Fiorano)
    BAR hasn't been out of the sport for 3 years, he's evolved with the changing F1 cars and tyres. Also, at 39 he's consistently being outqualified by rookie Maldonado nowadays. So if Schumacher is being beaten by a driver who has been here for 5 years, then you have no grounds to use BAR as a counter-argument if he's being beaten by a guy who's done just half a season. So that example: fail.

    2010: BAR vs HULK: 47 vs 22 points. BAR was better.
    2011: BAR vs MAL: 4 vs 0 points. BAR is better

    Outqualified yes, getting points which gets the cash, no.


    DLR: So good at 40 he lost his drive half way through his season :yy:
    DLR: Still had the same points as Mr.Reliable Heidfeld by the end of the season, looks like he was let down more by the car than his performance, still a well respected test driver for McLaren and the tyres. He didn't race for 3 years and wasn't competitive against his team mate either (that sounds like MSC!)

    Badoer: lol...really? :rolleyes: We know how brilliantly he did, he lasted an impressive 2 GPs before getting sacked.
    Yup, not driven an F1 car in anger for 10 years... see the trend here?

    It's funny because when Schumacher used to win all his races, people said it's not him it's because of his front-running car.
    Yet now all of a sudden if Schumacher isn't winning, people are saying it's because of him and don't consider the mid-field car he's in.
    MSC won because he was in a front running car and used to flatten his team mates. Now he's in a midfield car he's not expected to win, but he's not even beating his team mate, that's what the problem is. In the race of 2 drivers he's finishing second.
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    (Original post by Steeps)
    2010: BAR vs HULK: 47 vs 22 points. BAR was better.
    2011: BAR vs MAL: 4 vs 0 points. BAR is better

    Outqualified yes, getting points which gets the cash, no.
    How can somebody have such a poor grasp of the sport :facepalm:

    You're comparing how BAR fares against brand new rookies to how MSc does against a guy who's in his 6th season. That's the stupidity of your logic. I'm saying BAR isn't doing so well even at 40 because rookies are on a competitive level to him.

    Also you're obviously one of those fans on the dumber side of the scale, the ones who look at the sport through black and white points. It's a bit more complicated than that sunny boy, but I wouldn't expect somebody who makes these stupid statements to understand :yy:

    DLR: Still had the same points as Mr.Reliable Heidfeld by the end of the season, looks like he was let down more by the car than his performance, still a well respected test driver for McLaren and the tyres. He didn't race for 3 years and wasn't competitive against his team mate either (that sounds like MSC!)
    Oh fail again :facepalm:
    Heidfeld did 5 races. 6 points
    DLR did 14 races. 6 points

    :rofl:
    See what I mean, you're one of those stupid people who look at the black and white points and make conclusions on that basis.

    So erm, yeah, your argument for DLR = fail. Unless you can somehow justify why 6 points off 14 races is as good as 6 points of 5? :rofl:

    Yup, not driven an F1 car in anger for 10 years... see the trend here?
    Exactly, so it would take a truly stupid individual to bring up Badoer in this argument and make comparisons...wouldn't you say? :rolleyes: Only a stupid individual would say Badoer did okay and he was 40, and then backtrack with the fact that he hasn't race din 10 years.

    Just please stop looking so stupid :rofl:


    MSC won because he was in a front running car and used to flatten his team mates. Now he's in a midfield car he's not expected to win, but he's not even beating his team mate, that's what the problem is. In the race of 2 drivers he's finishing second.
    Indeed. What does that show? That he's not as good as he used to be.

    Is it surprising? Perhaps to a noob like you, but intelligent followers expected him to be rusty in the first year and generally slower at 42 than he was at for e.g. 25.
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    (Original post by Schumacher)
    Too much of F1 nowadays depends on the car and not the skill of the driver as it did 20-30 years ago.
    Formula 1 has always been that way and always will be that way. It is a team sport in which the philosophy has always been centered around engineering a car.
    Remember 20 years ago? full ABS, Traction Control and fully automatic 60/Second self-adjusting suspension?
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    No,

    F1 is dominated by Red Bull, Ferrari & McLaren at the moment. Only they will win races & championships. Time would have run out for Schumi by the time Mercedes start to win races, and would have retired.
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    The only comparisons of driver skill which can be made in this sport is comparing those to the person driving the same car. Using this purely without bias he was better than a good number of drivers in his first career, but now he is inferior to Rosberg. This presents a few possible explanations.

    1. Rosberg is better than MSC, and all his previous teammates
    2. MSC isn't as good as he was before.
    3. Rosberg is good AND MSC isn't as good as he was before.

    Ofc. this ignores the fact cars can be designed for specific drivers, and the preference Schumacher received at Ferrari(and possibly Benetton). As to whether he will win another race... if Mercedes produce a world beating car which is in at least one grand prix the fastest car, he has a chance on the off chance he can beat Rosberg. Personally I doubt it.
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    (Original post by boromir9111)
    He's out of retirement? this is news to me
    Where the **** have you been since 2008?

    As for OP, I think he is still good enough to win a race, but has a **** car. Put him in a Red Bull and he'd do things you wouldn't believe.
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    (Original post by ThisIsMyMoment)
    Where the **** have you been since 2008?

    As for OP, I think he is still good enough to win a race, but has a **** car. Put him in a Red Bull and he'd do things you wouldn't believe.
    :eek: :eek: apparently on another planet
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    (Original post by Davethedavedave)
    he doesn't have the talent anymore.

    Even if he does manage to get a better car, whoever is team mate is will beat him. unless its glock, then he might have a chance of winning.

    He is a great driver, maybe the greatest of all time, but he is well past it and should move on.
    Look at button though. he was crap a few years ago when he had an average car
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    (Original post by Ich Dien)
    Formula 1 has always been that way and always will be that way. It is a team sport in which the philosophy has always been centered around engineering a car.
    Remember 20 years ago? full ABS, Traction Control and fully automatic 60/Second self-adjusting suspension?
    Remember when there wasn't massive supermarket car park run off areas at almost every single corner or DRS zones? When there was the proper Nurburgring instead of what we have now? F1 has changed a lot since then and as such I believe that the cars are outweighing the ability of the driver in deciding the outcome of a race. It's not the be all and end all, but it's playing more of a role than it should do in my eyes.
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    (Original post by Schumacher)
    Remember when there wasn't massive supermarket car park run off areas at almost every single corner or DRS zones? When there was the proper Nurburgring instead of what we have now? F1 has changed a lot since then and as such I believe that the cars are outweighing the ability of the driver in deciding the outcome of a race. It's not the be all and end all, but it's playing more of a role than it should do in my eyes.
    Run off areas and track layouts have nothing to do with the relative competitiveness of the cars.
    If you put today's cars on the Nordschleife the problem would not improve. that's just a poor argument :rolleyes:

    We should make F1 more dangerous to test the drivers? You're a closet NASCAR fan....
    50's engineering, control chassis', tires, engines, fuel and tracks set in stone. You genuinely are in the wrong business.

    In the days when the Nurburgring had no barriers Matra's F2 cars raced alongside the F1 field because they were so well built.
    You had Colin Chapman and Keith Duckworth out engineering the rest of the field to the extent that a swiss privateer could win a GP race in one of their cars.

    Consistent success in F1 has always depended more on the car. Not the driver. It's a team sport. The guy plastering the carbon fibre on the wing moulds is just as important.
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    (Original post by Ich Dien)
    Run off areas and track layouts have nothing to do with the relative competitiveness of the cars.
    If you put today's cars on the Nordschleife the problem would not improve. that's just a poor argument :rolleyes:

    We should make F1 more dangerous to test the drivers? You're a closet NASCAR fan....

    In the days when the Nurburgring had no barriers Matra's F2 cars raced alongside the F1 field because they were so well built.
    You had Colin Chapman and Keith Dupworth out engineering the rest of the field to the extent that a swiss privateer could win a GP race in one of their cars.

    Consistent success in F1 has always depended more on the car. Not the driver. It's a team sport. The guy plastering the carbon fibre on the wing moulds is just as important.
    You have completely misread my post.

    Nowhere did I suggest that we should make the tracks more dangerous. I mentioned how the sport had changed where there was older venues that were more challenging than the ones we had now, but nowhere did I suggest we should put modern cars on the Nord or put drivers lives at risk.

    Your Nascar comment is complete nonsense and I have no idea what you are on about.

    I agree with your final point. You're reading into what I'm saying too much. I am not saying that a good car is the be all and end all, I'm just saying I feel it's becoming more important than it used to be years ago.
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    (Original post by Schumacher)
    Your Nascar comment is complete nonsense and I have no idea what you are on about.
    Perhaps you should write about a motorsport in which the car plays little to no part in determining the outcome of the races.

    (Original post by Schumacher)
    I agree with your final point. You're reading into what I'm saying too much. I am not saying that a good car is the be all and end all, I'm just saying I feel it's becoming more important than it used to be years ago.
    In the past Grand Prixs were an endurance test. The idea was to build a car that was quick and could last the distance. The latter is almost not taken into account these days as the cars are very good in that respect. Hence why performance seems to have taken center stage to a greater extent.
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    (Original post by Ich Dien)
    Perhaps you should write about a motorsport in which the car plays little to no part in determining the outcome of the races.
    Ok, can we get back on topic instead of talking about stuff that has nothing to do with what has been a fairly interesting debate so far? :rolleyes:
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    As a fan of Schumacher i may be biased but i do think that given the car he would find that extra gear and win races, possibly even a championship. The problem for him is time as i doubt he will stay too long.

    In regards to his first two seasons, let us look scientifically. The past two seasons have seen Mercedes competing with Renault for 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th. If we take a finish of 6th or better to mean that he would have given a performance worthy of 1st or 2nd if the car was good enougth then we get the following results for 2010 and 2011 for both Mercedes drivers...

    Rosberg Qualyfying
    2010 - 10
    2011 - 4 so far

    Rosberg Race
    2010 - 12
    2011 - 3

    Schumacher Qualyfying
    2010 - 2 (Spain, Turkey)
    2011 - 1 so far (Monaco)

    Schumacher Race
    2010 - 5 (Bahrain, Spain, Turkey, Japan, Korea)
    2011 - 2 sor far (Spain and Canada)

    Seems to love Spain.

    Looking at that, i would say that Schumacher was clearly outclassed during 2010 however this season he has been much closer to Roseberg in the race.

    Yes to wins, but Rosberg would take it to the wire for the championship.

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