Dance and Trance Music Society

Phil_D

Wow! For someone who has so little respect CD DJs so much you seem to know a hell of a lot about it. :rolleyes:

Mate, I know how you're feeling - this dude got under my skin too. What DJDJ said, was close to what Eddie was doing - but not exact. Although, he's right with respect to this not actually being too difficult to do. I've seen Eddie do some incredible stuff with a set of turntables, but this isn't one of his best. What he's doing, a reasonably good DJ could do, perhaps after DJing for say 2 years... just to be as fluent as Eddie is. The particular trick itself, isn't hard though; simply understanding when the major kicks and rhythms are and 'playing' with the channels accordingly. :smile:

Reply 802

actually, on second though maybe he can **** sround and dance with the crowd. Hard house djs dont usually mix the incoming tune for that long.

Reply 803

DJDJ

'****in' around with records, to me, is entertaining.

Gah, I'll watch the second one tomorrow and comment.

Yeah, but it is a different genre - you aren't taking that into consideration. I said before, I've played at an event in Holland where my mate had mates who were doing CRAZY stuff with Hip-hop, but what they were doing wouldn't sound good in Dance. It's all about relevance.

Reply 804

DJDJ

actually, on second though maybe he can **** sround and dance with the crowd. Hard house djs dont usually mix the incoming tune for that long.

Fair point, the average is about 20s. However, HH can be mixed for longer - the longest I've ever done (as an experiment more than anything) was 2 minutes.

Reply 805

^^ well thats what i've been saying (in relation to hip-hop and dance).

http://www.toolboxrecords.com/catalog/Techno+hardtek/Live+Shot+04,p3131.html

check out the samples, track 2 (with the vocal). i've been thinknig of geting some hard techno and mixing it with DnB.

Reply 806

No, you've been trying to compare Dance and Hip-hop DJs, and said that Hip-hop DJs have more tricks accessable to them. I've said all along, what a Hip-hop DJ can do with his non-steady beat, can be done to any Dance track (even 2/4 breaks). Granted Hip-hop DJs are better at what they do, that is because Dance DJs don't do it. If you turned up at a Dance event and Judge Jules started ****ing around like that DMC guy did, he'd get boo'd off after a while. It's fun to listen to at first, and a fresh, strange experience, but Dance isnt about chopping from track to track and back again. Especially within Trance: the idea of a Trance mix is that it flows from track to track and in an entire set - thus you need to know your genre well, what works with what (because not all pure Trance work together), read the crowd and see what they are enjoying, and hammer osme more of that while taking them on a 'journey'. In this respect, a DJ must be a lot more involved than that of a Hip-hop DJ who just wiggly wop woops every couple of seconds, no matter how impressive it is. :smile:

I'll check tomorrow or so, I'm off to bed - got an early rise tomorrow.

Reply 807

Also, it sounded like Eddie was swapping the lower-mid when I was watching, however it wasn't until I realised what mixer he was using (my own!) that he was purely chaging the mids, as the DJM600B doesn't have two mid-ranges. :wink:

Reply 808

Phil_D

DJDJ

i wasn't patronising you :rolleyes:

stop being so sensitive.

Of course, you were partronising me. I'm not a DJ so i think it's magic!? I'm not a DJ but i'm not a *****ing idiot.

DJDJ

Obviously. But it's all relative. Different skills take different amounts of practice to perfect. Different people take longer to master certain skills.

DJDJ

Traffic is nearly 7 minutes, mate.

DJDJ

'****in' around with records, to me, is entertaining.

It can be - but i don't want to see it for hours on end. I wanna hear music - a flowing set.

djmarkmclachlan

Well, as i said, it's all relative i suppose. What might be difficult for me might be easy to a DJ with 2 or 3 years experience. What might be incredibley difficult for one DJ might be a piece of p*ss for another. 3 things remain though - 1. what Eddie is doing in that video takes a level of technical skill. 2. Dance DJs can do a lot (this video maybe not being the perfect example of exactly what Halliwell is capable of - it's just something an example i knew of that i could dig out.) 3. What Eddie is doing in that video, to me, sounds *****ing awesome whether he learnt it in 10 years or 10 minutes.

djmarkmclachlan

Absoultely, mate. Spot on!

Reply 809

it's apples and oranges; an eternal online debate. most professionals are happy to admit that the 'other side' has a more specialised skill set...

people don't beatjuggle in trance sets for a reason. it's the same reason people don't dance much at the turntablist events - you tend to get about 400 students from bedfordshire standing around chin-stroking & pretending that they own all the original toolz on vinyl & have done since before they were born :wink:

but seriously, there exists a divide. it's kinda like the difference between being the Queen's official driver and being a rally driver. one is about fast, furious technical control, extracting absolute performance from the components, and creative showmanship. the other is about planning, route selection, smoothness, delicacy and having a sense of the big occasion.

and to be honest crowds recognise this differentiation. it's easy to admit that C2C (you know them, DJDJ? french turntablist outfit) have skills in terms of vinyl manipulation that John 00 Fleming will never be able to match. ever. but then people go to a John 00 Fleming gig to be part of an impeccably crafted 3-hour journey through multiple genres. there's a reason that the Danny Ramplings of this world can hold a crowd for 8 hour sets - because they clearly know their shizzle. find me a DMC champ who can take people on a journey for a third of a day and i'll eat my hi-hats :smile:

in terms of real world motor control, hell yeah - turntablism is an awesome experience. it's unmatched. it's also got enormous creative possibilities because you are genuinely making brand new music. but then again, i've seen techno DJs play 4-deck layered madness, cutting and shaping with an intricacy that comes pretty close... whilst also playing to a club full of people who are dancing their titties off :smile:

the point is that comparisons are entirely useless because the two artforms require and create a different performance methodology. not better, not worse, just different.

anyone who thinks they've 'got' dance DJing once they've learned how to beatmatch is generally lacking gig experience. there's an awful lot more to it...

i can't understand a DJ who doesn't respect CD decks... everyone's all over them for a reason (with the exception of techno, which is resolutely old-skool! :wink:

). if you're a gigging DJ there are about 1,000 reasons why CDJs are the way to go. but for now i'll just list my favourite 3:

1) carrying my set to the club in my pocket. that's right, no more dislocated shoulders!
2) no vinyl burn. ever get home and realise the 2p pieces taped to the tone arm & ****ed up old club needles have worn your prize record down to the black bone? ever stuck a favourite on and thought 'damn, when did the bass get so muddy? where did the high-frequency definition go?' nevermore...
3) keeping all your original CDs at home & burning copies of your favourites. sweet!

[edit: and remember guys, we're all basically in love with beats & bleeps... most people think a DJ is a DJ is a DJ, so we gotsta unite to defeat the common enemy :wink:

hehehe j/k]

now for the qualifiers: i'm a professional producer and DJ. i've played in people's backgardens for nothing and played 1000+ venues in London. i've done DJ sets & live sets, played festivals and clubnights.

Reply 810

Phil_D

-aeon-

I'm not sure whether that is the perfect analogy. I mean, the Queen's official driver is never deservedly going to win best driver in the world. Whereas PvD deserves to be named best DJ in the world - well, much more so that than the Queen's official driver deserves to be best driver in the world at least. It's a clever analogoy to me but might give people the wrong idea. Driving cars and DJing aren't the same discipline afterall.

But more or less everything you say, i'm prepared to agree with. As i said ages ago the demand for tricks in trance and house is not as great - it's an entirely different mode of DJing. The crowd are there to see an entirely different brand of performance. They want a journey.

But i maintain, dance DJs have plenty of tricks and technical capabilities available to them if they want to use them - trance and house DJs (the best ones like Halliwell) have a level of technical skill that doesn't come easy.

And you, like myself and Mark, have rubbished DJDJ's ridiculous assertion that nobody respects CD DJs (which is where this argument started)... so we can put that one to bed now.

Reply 811

the argument started because i said Andy C was the most skilled dj in the world, you disagreed and brought forth the notion, that infact, PvD was the best because the public voted him so.

And i am talking about technical skill here, which you keep on forgetting, then you go off on one about how a dj is suppose to take you on a 'journey' blah blah blah.

and phil, shut up. how have they 'rubbished' my arguments about cds? i dont like them, most of the top djs in DnB dont like them, hip-hop artists will never like them; FACT. Get over it mate, i have more respect for a vinyl junkie than a cd junkie, sorry its the way i feel about it. You thought that halliwell bloke was producing some amazing skills in that clip (which i explained wasn't the case)! well, if i wana see a guy prance about like a fairy ill go to the circus, if i wana see some serious skills on the decks ill go to a club (and no, playing about with the treble does not constitute to 'serious skills' even though it may sound good), and contary to your misguided belief, a set that includes tricks can also be extremely smooth: i can Andy C as an example here.

I really dont know how you can have an opinion, seeing as how you've never even mixed on any of them before.

Reply 812

I'm not sure whether that is the perfect analogy.

agreed, it was a bit clumsy!

I mean, the Queen's official driver is never deservedly going to win best driver in the world. Whereas PvD deserves to be named best DJ in the world - well, much more so that than the Queen's official driver deserves to be best driver in the world at least. It's a clever analogoy to me but might give people the wrong idea. Driving cars and DJing aren't the same discipline afterall.

fair play; though maybe you could argue that driving the queen is the most prestigious driving job in the world; i think what i was trying to get at is that measuring performance based purely on methods is kind of misleading when you have different end purposes.

But more or less everything you say, i'm prepared to agree with. As i said ages ago the demand for tricks in trance and house is not as great - it's an entirely different mode of DJing. The crowd are there to see an entirely different brand of performance. They want a journey.

But i maintain, dance DJs have plenty of tricks and technical capabilities available to them if they want to use them - trance and house DJs (the best ones like Halliwell) have a level of technical skill that doesn't come easy.

And you, like myself and Mark, have rubbished DJDJ's ridiculous assertion that nobody respects CD DJs (which is where this argument started)... so we can put that one to bed now.

i know - i realise this thread is 30+ pages long and all the points i made have been posted before, but i still wanted to add my 2 pence worth :smile:

Reply 813

i am talking about technical skill here, which you keep on forgetting, then you go off on one about how a dj is suppose to take you on a 'journey' blah blah blah.

au contraire.

i said many things about technical skill. for example:

-aeon-

in terms of real world motor control, hell yeah - turntablism is an awesome experience. it's unmatched. it's also got enormous creative possibilities because you are genuinely making brand new music.

but like we said: there's a lot more to entertainment than technical skill alone. and ignoring one skillset at the expense of another is pretty short-sighted...

you can take an awesome bedroom DJ who rains down flurries of beat-shredding skilltastic 3-deck glory... stick them in front of just 200 people in a main room... and watch 'em crash and burn. technique is not everything. it's the foundation, the basis, the fundamental - but it's not everything. otherwise we'd only be interested in DJs with the best technical skills and not those who entertain the most.

i dont like them, most of the top djs in DnB dont like them, hip-hop artists will never like them; FACT.

the fact that YOU don't like them is FACT.

saying that hip-hop artists will never like them is FICTION. no-one knows. i bet ya more and more hiphop djs will use CDJs in the future... in fact, i'll put a tenner on it now :smile:

notice you said 'most of the top DnB DJs'. most. would i be right in guessing that a few years ago it would have been 'no Dnb DJs will ever use CDs'? :wink:

times change, technology changes, and the first time you realise you've lost a favourite record because it got scratched / burnt out / warped maybe you'll think differently!

plus to any DJ who values creative mixing a CD deck is a wonderful thing... hot cue points, built in samplers, being able to play many different file formats, built in digital effects... i thought you liked innovative mixing? :wink:

Get over it mate, i have more respect for a vinyl junkie than a cd junkie, sorry its the way i feel about it.

that's cool - it's your opinion :smile:

Reply 814

So you've backed my statements up. Hopefully this will lay it to rest now.

As to the CDJs being better I am one of the inital skeptics, but as I said, they have advantages that turntablists envy but are too stubborn and egotistic to admit. I did turn up at a gig once, with my records, headphones, sandwich, water to be confronted with a set of CDJs. I couldn't play and the crowd were none too pleased. Fact is, it's old news - CD DJs have earned their respect.

Only thing that stops me from changing over (besides the fact I'm only doing it for fun now) is the CDJs just don't cut it compared to the feeling of the music on your fingertips. Plus - it's great to open up the record box and have a flick through to see what's in there, even though you packed it and know what's in there, still a nice feeling to have a look-see - and when you pull it out its sleeve it's a rivetting experience, no matter how many times you've done it before. Yeah, I'm a music buff and a vinyl junkie, I just can't help it.

Out of interest (if you don't wish say on here PM me) which agency you with/ what you playing?

Reply 815

DJDJ

And i am talking about technical skill here, which you keep on forgetting, then you go off on one about how a dj is suppose to take you on a 'journey' blah blah blah.

Actually you said he was the best because he is technically good, I said to judge a DJ you must look at more than that; with his ability to read the crowd etc etc (I posted it ages ago). Also, his technical ability could be taken into consideration with his ability to move the music from track to track in a 'journey'.

DJDJ

I really dont know how you can have an opinion, seeing as how you've never even mixed on any of them before.

I have, and I disagree with yours. CD DJs have earned their respect from a LOAD of other people, why are you being so ignorant to what can do with CDs? They make certain aspects more easy, yes, however so do mxiers nowadays for the turntablist. However, the CDJs have functions which turntables don't (even Vestax ones) and thus they can do a lot more with them. It's simply that they are moving with the times, compared to us vinyl junkies. :smile:

Reply 816

i was the ultimate vinyl snob before i got into CDs... more hostile than DJDJ! :wink:

seriously though i used to prefer vinyl. CDs seemed clinical and unforgiving compared to the warmth and tactile advantage of a record...

and really i think one of the few arguments in favour of vinyl which i can sympathise with is the one you mentioned about the feel on your fingers. that is unique :smile:

but at the same time, it's damn frustrating when you realise your fingers have club filth on them and you're handling your favourite records! the one thing which kept drawing me back to CDs was quality and degradation. i know some people prefer the 'warmth' of vinyl, but really that sound is just distortion. and having records that were worn down so they lost clarity... man it killed me.

plus i'm now entirely used to paying about £8 for an album and getting 9 tracks, instead of £6.99 for one good track and one ****ty remix :wink:

i play psytrance :smile:

also doing some downtempo / ethnicelectric stuff at festivals this year.

Reply 817

Phil_D

DJDJ

I really dont know how you can have an opinion, seeing as how you've never even mixed on any of them before.

Stop being as arrogant.

I may not be a DJ but i know my music, i know the industry. I watch DJs, i listen to them, i collect their mixes and material. I read about the industry and DJing. I mix digitally which isn't 'proper DJing' but it's more than most non-DJs - means i have some knowledge of beat matching, measures, the kind of tracks that will and won't mix together well, how to create a listenable set - something i could give to friend for them to enjoy. Im fully entitled to state my opinion.

Plus, most of the opinions i've put forward have been consistent with Mark and -aeon- who are DJs with relative experience. So i can't be that ignorant.

Reply 818

infact, i cant even be bothered to argue any more.

Reply 819