Something To Think About

OP

Original post by The Dark Lord

Here's something else to think about:

On the news last night they went from stories of the riots, to stories of people dying of famine and starvation in Africa. What the rioters don't appreciate is that even though they might be struggling to find jobs etc and might live off benefits, at least in this country they aren't left to die. The fact of the matter is that they are living better than half the people in the world and they take so many things for granted; healthcare, a home, benefits to buy food and clothes.

hardly anyone appreciates how good we have it in this country, regardless of the economic difficulties. The UK needs to learn something from the Japanese. After every earthquake/tsunami they have, ordinary people get together to help their fellow people with no desire to get something in return. These moral values and disciplines are what should be taught in schools these days. The government should bring back the traditional curriculum and instill some pride in the younger generations.

It's true, things are worse in other countries, but people tend to turn a blind eye to it once they've acknowledged it and pretended to care. For this country, these people are more relevant (even though they aren't dying like the ones in Africa).

As far as learning goes, you can't teach these people morals. I know the types of people who'd have gone looting, I went to school with them. They genuinely just don't give a damn... about anything! Stealing, smashing or even stabbing, doesn't make a difference to them, they'll do whatever they feel like.

The government can't do anything because if you tried to teach this stuff in school these kids would just consider it more of the same boring lessons which they don't pay attention in; and if the teachers try to punish them, they'll just stand up and rebel.

Reply 3

Lack of perspective, lack of real parenting, lack of a real judicial and penal system, lack of self-respect.

I think those are the causes.

These people don't understand cause and effect, they don't actually believe they don't deserve to have something, they think if they can take it they can have it. Lack of perspective.

Their parents never instilled them with a proper sense of right and wrong. And I think it is specifically the parents responsible here, and not wider society. I've been exposed to the same world as many of those rioters, why am I not like them? Well a huge chunk of that is my parents, they taught me decent morals, respect for myself and others and so many other life lessons that make me a responsible citizen.

Obviously prison no longer being a place to be feared is a huge problem. People know if they get caught they'll get some BS ASBO, maybe a few months inside a cushy prison. Warm water, 3 square meals, TV, access to a GYM, hell even school if they want it. Prison is not hard any more, add to that the few people being sent there. There is no real deterrent to criminals who feel marginalised or at the bottom.

Lack of self respect. There was a time when being a criminal was a shameful thign to do, unless you were from a proper crime family. All throughout history there have been sects of criminal society, this I acknowledge. But it wasn't so long ago that being a theif brought shame to you, shame to your family and your associates. Bring back shame and you've got such a powerful tool. Nowadays theivery is something bragged about in school corridors, not the last bastion of the poorest in society.

That is not to abdicate responsibility from the rioters though. They are scum, scum in themselves and by product of their enviroment.

Reply 4

OP

Original post by Steevee

Lack of perspective, lack of real parenting, lack of a real judicial and penal system, lack of self-respect.

I definitely agree with lack of real parenting... but how do you solve that?

The parents have these kids, either they're too busy at work trying to make ends meet and as such never have much time for their kids... or they're just not interested in their kids lives and couldn't care less. Either way it leads to a corruption in the child's understanding of morality and once you go past a certain age, there's no turning back. After that, the kids will stand up to their parents and anyone else, they have no fear.

The fact is, you can't straight out stop people from having kids by saying they're unfit to be parents. And moreover, if you do take kids away because of that, they're likely to turn out even worse. Is there a solution?

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 5

The Dark Lord

12

Original post by Chaos_91

It's true, things are worse in other countries, but people tend to turn a blind eye to it once they've acknowledged it and pretended to care. For this country, these people are more relevant (even though they aren't dying like the ones in Africa).

As far as learning goes, you can't teach these people morals. I know the types of people who'd have gone looting, I went to school with them. They genuinely just don't give a damn... about anything! Stealing, smashing or even stabbing, doesn't make a difference to them, they'll do whatever they feel like.

The government can't do anything because if you tried to teach this stuff in school these kids would just consider it more of the same boring lessons which they don't pay attention in; and if the teachers try to punish them, they'll just stand up and rebel.

Agreed, but only if it is left until secondary education. I believe morals can be taught, as long as it is done so straight away at primary level. The reason kids these days don't pay any attention in secondary school is because they didn't experience any sort of discipline from an early age.

Reply 6

The Dark Lord

12

Original post by Chaos_91

I definitely agree with lack of real parenting... but how do you solve that?

The parents have these kids, either they're too busy at work trying to make ends meet and as such never have much time for their kids... or they're just not interested in their kids lives and couldn't care less. Either way it leads to a corruption in the child's understanding of morality and once you go past a certain age, there's no turning back. After that, the kids will stand up to their parents and anyone else, they have no fear.

The fact is, you can't straight out stop people from having kids by saying they're unfit to be parents. And moreover, if you do take kids away because of that, they're likely to turn out even worse. Is there a solution?

There is a solution; don't leave it up to the parents. Tougher, stricter, more intensive primary education will make a major impact.

Reply 7

Original post by Chaos_91

I definitely agree with lack of real parenting... but how do you solve that?

The parents have these kids, either they're too busy at work trying to make ends meet and as such never have much time for their kids... or they're just not interested in their kids lives and couldn't care less. Either way it leads to a corruption in the child's understanding of morality and once you go past a certain age, there's no turning back. After that, the kids will stand up to their parents and anyone else, they have no fear.

The fact is, you can't straight out stop people from having kids by saying they're unfit to be parents. And moreover, if you do take kids away because of that, they're likely to turn out even worse. Is there a solution?

I think we can take a look at the solution from history. But I don't think it's a practical solution in this day and age. Sadly.

My solution? Remove child benefit to start with. Government corrective schools for trouble pupils, plus make it easier for schools to expel pupils so those that cause trouble are caught and corrected by the state when the parents fail. Plus more regular fines or benifit docks for children in trouble. I'm sure the parents might start taking an interest when they're slapped with a fifty quid fine because of their kid.

Reply 8

Homer_Simpson

money is the only reason!

Reply 9

bristols

It really saddened me as a parent to see those kids looting at night when they should have been safely tucked up in bed. Teaching morality at school does not work if there is none at home, and if a child does not have moral guidance and discipline from around 18 months then its hard to address. There has been some great early prevention projects, i mentor young mums, and am proud that i've got a good few into college, so that they and their children have a chance, plus they rarely go onto have another when they succeed elsewhere. Its a real shame that the early prevention budgets have been slashed.

There is a wider role for the community to start confronting these 'problem families', but the community has to be supported by the police and local authoritied

Reply 10

ypo

6

Original post by The Dark Lord

hardly anyone appreciates how good we have it in this country, regardless of the economic difficulties. The UK needs to learn something from the Japanese. After every earthquake/tsunami they have, ordinary people get together to help their fellow people with no desire to get something in return. These moral values and disciplines are what should be taught in schools these days. The government should bring back the traditional curriculum and instill some pride in the younger generations.

The Japanese don't believe in this multiculuralism bull. They certainly don't believe in all this "mulitracial" garbage. Despite being a prosperous society, they don't believe in opening up the floodgates to backward, stupid, ignorant Third World immigrants and asylum seekers. They want to see their country Japanese, their cities Japanese and their culture and customs Japanese. Shock oh shock, they don't have to deal with constant "community" problems, riots and out-of-control crime committed by "youths".

Reply 11

OP

Original post by The Dark Lord

Agreed, but only if it is left until secondary education. I believe morals can be taught, as long as it is done so straight away at primary level. The reason kids these days don't pay any attention in secondary school is because they didn't experience any sort of discipline from an early age.

I agree morals can be taught at an earlier age, but primary school isn't the place to learn such things. Try and remember primary school... most of the time kids weren't paying attention and loved to run around, play pranks, etc. Especially with these kids, even when they're young, they're impossible to control.

Reply 12

OP

Original post by Steevee

I think we can take a look at the solution from history. But I don't think it's a practical solution in this day and age. Sadly.

My solution? Remove child benefit to start with. Government corrective schools for trouble pupils, plus make it easier for schools to expel pupils so those that cause trouble are caught and corrected by the state when the parents fail. Plus more regular fines or benifit docks for children in trouble. I'm sure the parents might start taking an interest when they're slapped with a fifty quid fine because of their kid.

So wait, you would try and make things better by making the life of these kids even harder? Removing child benefits would make them even less privelaged than they already are. Expelling them from school would just mean that they end up at home with nothing to do and before you know it they'll start hitting the streets. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who were expelled from schools were part of the riots.

As for a fine, these kids already probably have a strained relationship with there parents, and do you honestly think making it worse will help? They'll just shout at their kids, put them down, have a worse relationship and these kids will just be filled with more anger and hatred towards the world.

Reply 13

OP

Original post by ypo

The Japanese don't believe in this multiculuralism bull. They certainly don't believe in all this "mulitracial" garbage. Despite being a prosperous society, they don't believe in opening up the floodgates to backward, stupid, ignorant Third World immigrants and asylum seekers. They want to see their country Japanese, their cities Japanese and their culture and customs Japanese. Shock oh shock, they don't have to deal with constant "community" problems, riots and out-of-control crime committed by "youths".

Errr... you do realise that the rioters were people who were born and bred in this country? A lot of were at least 3rd generation black and there were lots of white british as well.

I get he Japanese angle, but that's because their culture is based heavily on respect and honour. This is something that's instilled into the kids from the time they're young. But like I said earlier, the british culture isn't one of community. The british like to be a lot more closed and keep to themselves, everyone getting on with their own lives. As such, your always gonna have people who feel marginalised from society, if your culture is one that breeds such things.

Reply 14

MTR_10

14

The problem is more to do with having such a prominent class division. The distance and cultural difference between the classes in this country is huge. If you use the example of some of the most socially successful modern countries, say Switzerland for example, or Germany or the Scandinavian countries there is little emphasis and care about what 'class' you belong to. Although there is strictly speaking young people who are more wealthy than others that does not cause such a huge class division and conflict. Whereas in this country it seems that the only think people are interested in is going to work making as much money as possible (thus increasing status) and then going home and closing themselves off from the outside world. Sad but true.

This class division is seen everywhere across the UK but is so condensed and intense in cities like London that it makes for huge conflict and unrest. People may call it jealousy, others call it injustice. Something needs to be done though to ensure that young people are respected whether they go to Eaton and live in Belgravia or whether they grow up on a Hackney Estate. Everyone (including the wealthy) owes something to society and they need to realise that they are not bigger than society, neither are they superior to anyone else.

Having a 'House of Lords' doesn't help this class division.

Abolish the class system and peace will follow.

Reply 15

OP

Original post by MTR_10

The problem is more to do with having such a prominent class division. The distance and cultural difference between the classes in this country is huge. If you use the example of some of the most socially successful modern countries, say Switzerland for example, or Germany or the Scandinavian countries there is little emphasis and care about what 'class' you belong to. Although there is strictly speaking young people who are more wealthy than others that does not cause such a huge class division and conflict. Whereas in this country it seems that the only think people are interested in is going to work making as much money as possible (thus increasing status) and then going home and closing themselves off from the outside world. Sad but true.

This class division is seen everywhere across the UK but is so condensed and intense in cities like London that it makes for huge conflict and unrest. People may call it jealousy, others call it injustice. Something needs to be done though to ensure that young people are respected whether they go to Eaton and live in Belgravia or whether they grow up on a Hackney Estate. Everyone (including the wealthy) owes something to society and they need to realise that they are not bigger than society, neither are they superior to anyone else.

Having a 'House of Lords' doesn't help this class division.

Abolish the class system and peace will follow.

A class system is a natural result of a capitalist economy. You can't change the fact that some people will always earn more than others and be better off. You can't change that as a result the classes will live in separate areas and there will be concentrated areas where poorer people congregate. This is nature.

It's not class that is the issue, it's happiness. People can be poor but still perfectly satisfied with their lives. These guys aren't happy. They don't have anything to keep them going. Their lives are boring. Their only source of fun is getting together and seeing what happens (which may or may not involve vandalism, mugging or looting)

Also, as a sidenote; it's depressing that the only way that people in this country seem to be capable of having fun is when they're getting drunk. It's literally that sad that there are so few other things to keep the majority going; but all they look forward to is the weekend and getting smashed.
Sober fun seems to be lacking these days. For some of us, our sober fun is a game of football in the park, or just a day out in town with our friends. But for these guys, their community areas are being shut down and they're alienated when they go into town centres (self inflicted as it may be by the way they act and dress). For them, there is no fun, no satisfaction in their lives and the struggle to survive doesn't help; it's no shock that they can come out in the masses and happily wreak havoc.

Reply 16

Original post by Chaos_91

So wait, you would try and make things better by making the life of these kids even harder? Removing child benefits would make them even less privelaged than they already are. Expelling them from school would just mean that they end up at home with nothing to do and before you know it they'll start hitting the streets. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who were expelled from schools were part of the riots.

As for a fine, these kids already probably have a strained relationship with there parents, and do you honestly think making it worse will help? They'll just shout at their kids, put them down, have a worse relationship and these kids will just be filled with more anger and hatred towards the world.

Remove child benifit and you'll have far less scum having children. The expelled children would be sent to a corrective school, not left on the streets.

And the thing is though, that for the last 15 years we've had this limp wristed liberal bollox about being the kids friends, and trying to make their lives better, and has it helped? Has it bollox. Youth behaviour was better 60 years ago before all of this PC bull, and I think there is a reason for that!

Reply 17

OP

Original post by Steevee

Remove child benifit and you'll have far less scum having children. The expelled children would be sent to a corrective school, not left on the streets.

And the thing is though, that for the last 15 years we've had this limp wristed liberal bollox about being the kids friends, and trying to make their lives better, and has it helped? Has it bollox. Youth behaviour was better 60 years ago before all of this PC bull, and I think there is a reason for that!

People will still have children and try to make do with less. As such their lives will be more strained and the parents will have to be working overtime to make ends meet. So they'll have less time to spend with their kids and quite simply they'll be stealing and vandalising in no time (especially if no one's around to tell them otherwise)

Have you met the guys who went to corrective schools? Putting a bunch of guys with a similar disregard for society all in one place where they can all agree about how much they hate society and how their lives aren't gonna go anywhere. Like minded people together so that they have new friends who'll be up for doing no good at night? Sounds like a great idea...

60 years ago, the mentality of people was different. These guys genuinely don't give a f*** about anything. Try disciplining them harder in school and they'll just rebel more. Try taking more away from them and they'll just start stealing. They've got nothing to lose and like I said, they just don't care. You and I might fear the consequences of our actions but they certainly don't.

Reply 18