Would anyone want Ireland to rejoin the union?

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Ireland was a 32 county country then, there was no such this as a majority in the north etc. There can only be two things a majority (wanted independance) and a minority, (wanted to remain British).

When you think about it, the main reason why home rule wasn't granted in the first place was the unionist threat, particulary after the 250k signed the covenent. Had home rule been granted there would most certainly been civil war. However, they were vastly out numbered on this island, probably would have lost and soon came to realise that the 'discrimination' they thought they would have received from Dublin was a mere myth.

But then you have to look at all the blood shed that came from that treaty, civil war, sectarianism in the north, the troubles etc
Yeah, I resent him for signing it.

Would have rathered he continued the fight and lost; than the outcome that we got.

DeValera supporter I'm guessing?

There may not have been a "Northern Island" per se, but there was still a big divide between the South and North due to the fact that plantations in the North were carried out much more effectively and lead to a more stable population of those identifying themselves as British than the South.

Il agree with you that the threat of the UVF was the main reason we didnt get home rule but the fact remains that there was a very large group of people who would be vehemently opposed to having to join a Home Rule government run from Dublin. And to force them to join would be flat out wrong, how would we have been much better than the Tans if we had resorted to violence?

At the end of the day, the Treaty was a damn good deal for us and deValera was a short sighted fool to argue against it. All the bloodshed you mention can hardly be blamed on Collins, he tried hard not to create a civil war, it was deValera who whipped up his supporters and created the conditions under which a civil war would be inevitable.

The blood shed resulting from the civil war is miniscule compared to what would have happened if we had tried to take on thousands of well armed and pissed off UVF soldiers to force them into a united Ireland they didnt want. Collins made the best out of a bad situation by signing the Treaty

Reply 41

Craig_D

Simply, no. I love both countries, but it wouldn't do any good for relations at all. And I don't want to find myself having one citizenship either.

Reply 42

Hylean

Original post by bestofyou

Would you?

Personally I would, because a 32-county Ireland isn't going to happen anytime soon, and it really depresses me to see it divided. It's not like if we rejoined it would be the same as 100 years ago and we would get discriminated against.

And with all the stuff a few months ago with the Queens visiting, so many people saying 'its time to move on blah blah' surely they'd be hypocritical if they wouldn't want to rejoin for the sole purpose of 'men have died for the independance', I'd be pretty certain they were turning in their graves by the time dev had squandered another chance of unification, if not when Collins signed the treaty that divided the island in the first place. Not to mention the sheer abomination they created which is suposed to be an economy.

Whilst I have no issue with a United Ireland under the UK, I think you're underestimating the backlash such an idea would cause amongst nationalists and republicans within Ireland and Northern Ireland. Hell, I think even Unionists and Loyalists would be pretty pissed off by it all.

Reply 43

bestofyou

Original post by Hylean

Yeah, I'd probably object myself if it was actually proposed.

I guess the idea of a united Ireland got the better of me = this stupid thread

Reply 44

bestofyou

Original post by J0kerman2

DeValera supporter I'm guessing?

nope, opposite in fact. Anti-treaty, but still against dev

There may not have been a "Northern Island" per se, but there was still a big divide between the South and North due to the fact that plantations in the North were carried out much more effectively and lead to a more stable population of those identifying themselves as British than the South.

Il agree with you that the threat of the UVF was the main reason we didnt get home rule but the fact remains that there was a very large group of people who would be vehemently opposed to having to join a Home Rule government run from Dublin. And to force them to join would be flat out wrong, how would we have been much better than the Tans if we had resorted to violence?

At the end of the day, the Treaty was a damn good deal for us and deValera was a short sighted fool to argue against it. All the bloodshed you mention can hardly be blamed on Collins, he tried hard not to create a civil war, it was deValera who whipped up his supporters and created the conditions under which a civil war would be inevitable.

The blood shed resulting from the civil war is miniscule compared to what would have happened if we had tried to take on thousands of well armed and pissed off UVF soldiers to force them into a united Ireland they didnt want. Collins made the best out of a bad situation by signing the Treaty

True, Collins didn't force the unionist gov. in the north to treat catholics like **** etc. But he still signed the treaty that gave them the opportunity. Obviously he didn't do it knowing that would happen, but he still did it. There was quite alot of negitive knock ons as a result of the treaty.

There are still people dying today as a result of sectarianism in the north. Of course had the treaty not been signed, the war lost and Eire under brit rule; there still might be sectarianism here. Maybe worse. Maybe he prevented a genocide by signing it. Who knows.

Reply 45

Snagprophet

Seeing as Ireland's been bailed out again, I doubt their debt is something we want. I would like to see Northern Ireland become a part of the Republic of Ireland because I would honestly like to see Sein Fein's faces when they realise they cannot subsidise Northern Ireland in the same way England does. It's the most subsided country in the UK.

Reply 46

Aphotic Cosmos

Original post by bestofyou

Yeah, I'd probably object myself if it was actually proposed.

I guess the idea of a united Ireland got the better of me = this stupid thread

Just because it's a totally unrealistic idea now doesn't mean that it always will be or that it's a bad idea. IMO unionism across these isles could be a powerful force for good in this world. Britain, especially England, is going to have to slowly redefine itself over the next few decades due to devolution, immigration (saying that from a neutral pov) and shrinking power on the world stage. Maybe a union would make more sense then.

Reply 47

Hylean

Original post by J0kerman2

Il agree with you that the threat of the UVF was the main reason we didnt get home rule but the fact remains that there was a very large group of people who would be vehemently opposed to having to join a Home Rule government run from Dublin. And to force them to join would be flat out wrong, how would we have been much better than the Tans if we had resorted to violence?

To join what? You're talking as if the North and the South were always separate areas, which is utterly bull****. Protestants were the major landowners across Ireland and whilst they were exceptionally strong in the North, there was no special divide between the two regions, not even along province lines.

I'm sorry, but to force a minority group to follow along with a democratically sanctioned ruling is exactly what democracy is all about. They were in Ireland, Ireland was being given Home Rule. They should've accepted that fact and tried to make changes from the inside, as opposed to taking up the gun and threatening civil war.

Original post by J0kerman2

The blood shed resulting from the civil war is miniscule compared to what would have happened if we had tried to take on thousands of well armed and pissed off UVF soldiers to force them into a united Ireland they didnt want. Collins made the best out of a bad situation by signing the Treaty

Oh, because The Troubles have been so much frigging better? I really don't get this argument. I really don't. Oh, the separation was better because it prevented bloodshed. Bull****. People are still being killed in Northern Ireland today because of it. There's a poster on this forum who supports the 32CSM and another who is worried about being openly Unionist at Queens, because it apparently has a reputation as a republican university. Or how about all the **** that Catholics have had to face in Northern Ireland until relatively recently?

They were already in a United Ireland. They should've bowed down to the wishes of the majority. Hell, Carson himself was from the South. The Ulster Unionists should never have been pandered to. Hell, for all we know, Ireland might still be in the UK right now if Carson and Craigavon hadn't been such dickheads. All the **** that has gone down over the past 100 years might never have happened if the Unionists had realised that Home Rule from Dublin wasn't necessarily a bad thing. We will never know, but do not defend their right to ignore the wishes of the majority, especially with unrequired violence, all because they were sectarian *****.

Reply 48

thoy

It's funny how incredibly naive this thread is. NOBODY in the ROI would EVER want to be part of the UK!! To even propose it is almost an insult! Irish people are so proud to be Irish and would NEVER want to be part of the UK ever again!!!

Whilst yes, most people would love to see a 'united Ireland' (i.e. 32 counties) they have accepted what they have and would never give an inch to the Queen ever again!

Also, I'll remind you that Britain took over Ireland- therefore 'uniting' Ireland under British rule is not the same as uniting it as an independant country. (Ireland).

Reply 49

maria1291

Original post by Chief Wiggum

The difference is much larger than 2%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NILT_NIRELND2.png

That is the statitics for those who want to reunited with a free Ireland ... I am a Republican and I do not want to reunite with Ireland yet!!! It would be crazy!!!! I may repeat myself again. The gap between Protestant and Catholic is about 2% ... okay, not the gap between those in support of the union for the current time.

There is so much pratical things to sort out first, certainly won't reunite until the economy is stable a currency is established, education, health and argriculture, policing are all agreed upon. You simply have mistaken the statistics!

Reply 50

KiwiIsland

Ehh, if they wanted to. They have quite sexy accents.

Reply 51

Psyk

Original post by thoy

Whilst yes, most people would love to see a 'united Ireland' (i.e. 32 counties) they have accepted what they have and would never give an inch to the Queen ever again!

I bet they'd change their mind if the current Queen and Prince Charles died in a plane crash. Then I'm sure plenty of Irish people would be willing to give the Queen a few inches.

Reply 52

Chief Wiggum

Original post by maria1291

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were talking about the difference in support for a united Ireland / Ireland rejoining the Union.

Reply 53

Sighrawr

Original post by bestofyou

well maybe you should read the full op before shooting you're mouth off

I never attacked you. I basically said go read the op and a book about the home rule crisis

You're exceedingly annoying.

Reply 54

thoy

Original post by Psyk

I bet they'd change their mind if the current Queen and Prince Charles died in a plane crash. Then I'm sure plenty of Irish people would be willing to give the Queen a few inches.

What??? I meant no Irish person would ever let the UK take more of the island! People here do not have a problem with the Queen, hence the visit, but they would never, ever want to join the UK! It would literally lead to another war.

Reply 55

Psyk

Original post by thoy

I know what you meant :tongue:

Reply 56

maria1291

Original post by Chief Wiggum

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were talking about the difference in support for a united Ireland / Ireland rejoining the Union.

Oh don't worry! It's such a common mistake! I'm not even a Catholic myself but a Republican and support Sinn Féin. Just typically accosiation that Catholic=nationalist/republican and Protestant=unionist/loyalist. I don't know of too many Catholic unionists lol but there is no shortage of Protestant republicans!

Just a bit like you don't have any members of the KKK that are black lol. But many white people who support the right of black people. Catholics were completely discriminated against and there is no two roads about that!

Just unfortunate the then the Catholics sort of tended to target ordinary Protestants that just happened to make the two sides hate each other more when it never really was the issue at all. As I say again it was a Catholic who handed Ireland over to invasion! And many many many Protestants ... James Connelly, Sam Mc Guire etc. who fought this! Really such as shame it turned out to be about religion :-(

Reply 57

bestofyou

Original post by Sighrawr

You're exceedingly annoying.

Exceedingly you're annoying

Reply 58

medbh4805

Original post by maria1291

I want both groups to agree of course, but it isn't up to Protestants it is up to the whole of the 6 counties, and the way demographics are going there is an increase in Catholics and a decrease in Protestants, which I have to be honest is a stupid way of generalising this issue considering it was a Catholic who handed Ireland over to invasion and many many Protestants are Republicans. You just don't find many Catholic unionists cause unionists opposed the Catholic people of Ireland.