[MTR_10]

In all honesty I agree. Allowing (and encouraging) rebels to go mad in a country, loot and destroy the place and then call themselves a legitimate government would be slightly wrong. Not to mention the precedent it could set. I personally am glad that the African Union refuses to recognise the NTC as Libya's government. Not that I support Gaddafi but the west and NATO have gone about removing him completely the wrong way.

http://af.reuters.com/article/commod...7JQ1QY20110826

[Aj12]

No shock there, most of the AU are great friends with Gaddafi. He has long used the oil wealth to buy himself influence.

[Kelsey A]

(Original post by MTR_10)
In all honesty I agree. Allowing (and encouraging) rebels to go mad in a country, loot and destroy the place and then call themselves a legitimate government would be slightly wrong. Not to mention the precedent it could set. I personally am glad that the African Union refuses to recognise the NTC as Libya's government. Not that I support Gaddafi but the west and NATO have gone about removing him completely the wrong way.

http://af.reuters.com/article/commod...7JQ1QY20110826

Completely agree. There was absolutely no diplomacy involved in ousting Gaddafi. I still don't understand why the African Union where not consulted about Libya NATO and the western governments instead went to the Arab Union even though Libya has stronger ties with Africa and is within that continent. We also do not know who these people are and where they have the full support of Libya, giving them power may only lead to another civil war in that country.

[MTR_10]

(Original post by Kelsey A)
Completely agree. There was absolutely no diplomacy involved in ousting Gaddafi. I still don't understand why the African Union where not consulted about Libya NATO and the western governments instead went to the Arab Union even though Libya has stronger ties with Africa and is within that continent. We also do not know who these people are and where they have the full support of Libya, giving them power may only lead to another civil war in that country.

Thank you.

Not to mention how this could send out the wrong message to other countries. If you don't like your leader just go out into the street fire your rifles into the air and loot the presidential palace stealing things from the President's daughter's bedroom. Don't worry the West will be there to support you!

[Aj12]

(Original post by MTR_10)
Thank you.

Not to mention how this could send out the wrong message to other countries. If you don't like your leader just go out into the street fire your rifles into the air and loot the presidential palace stealing things from the President's daughter's bedroom. Don't worry the West will be there to support you!

No I think the message more is if your government starts shooting peaceful protesters and you rebel the UN may support you.

[Snagprophet]

I'd lol if Libya became the EU's 29th state while Israel becomes the 28th state.

[Aj12]

(Original post by GwrxVurfer)
MTR, I have to warn you about this guy. Aj buys into the conspiracy theory that Gadaffi magically teleported to Benghazi, managed to shoot many protesters despite being vastly outnumbered, teleported back to Tripoli and left no video or photographic proof whatsoever. Aj won't produce any proof, other than the "written reports" he's so fond of which simply parrot his claims. While Aj and the reports allege to offer proof, it is important to note that neither actually have offered any so far.


Let's keep on topic here. The concern now is with the average Libyan guy on the street, and the danger that the new regime poses to them. Forces loyal to the NTC have already besieged civilian population centres, putting civilian lives in danger, in their military coup against the Gadaffi Government. My problem with the NTC is that they refuse to accept the will of the Libyan people, the vast majority of which are still in support of the legitimate Government, not the new regime. The NTC must step down, they have no legitimacy.

You must be one of the only people in the world who refuses to accept witness testimony.

[tehFrance]

No country should recognise the NTC as the government in Libya until Gaddafi is captured as he still effectively rules... even if he is on the run.

[MTR_10]

(Original post by Aj12)
No I think the message more is if your government starts shooting peaceful protesters and you rebel the UN may support you.

It's the government choice how they deal with protesters. Dare I say it is also none of our business.

They are many cases in the West where our leaders have done things which are not strictly speaking democratic or are a little heavy handed. That doesn't mean I would support people going out onto the streets with guns looting and causing havoc and then refer to them as a government.

[MTR_10]

(Original post by GwrxVurfer)
MTR, I have to warn you about this guy. Aj buys into the conspiracy theory that Gadaffi magically teleported to Benghazi, managed to shoot many protesters despite being vastly outnumbered, teleported back to Tripoli and left no video or photographic proof whatsoever. Aj won't produce any proof, other than the "written reports" he's so fond of which simply parrot his claims. While Aj and the reports allege to offer proof, it is important to note that neither actually have offered any so far.


Let's keep on topic here. The concern now is with the average Libyan guy on the street, and the danger that the new regime poses to them. Forces loyal to the NTC have already besieged civilian population centres, putting civilian lives in danger, in their military coup against the Gadaffi Government. My problem with the NTC is that they refuse to accept the will of the Libyan people, the vast majority of which are still in support of the legitimate Government, not the new regime. The NTC must step down, they have no legitimacy.

So the attempt to introduce 'democracy' by the west has failed (miserably)?

[Aj12]

(Original post by GwrxVurfer)
Aj, if you received a written document which stated that witness testimony confirmed Gadaffi as innocent, would you believe given the absence of other supporting evidence?

That depends just how much witness testimony there was and if it came from a reliable source

[MTR_10]

(Original post by GwrxVurfer)
My problem with the NTC is that they refuse to accept the will of the Libyan people, the vast majority of which are still in support of the legitimate Government, not the new regime. The NTC must step down, they have no legitimacy.

Wouldn't that be ironic. Gaddafi removed because he is a dictator and his government is 'undemocratic'. Only to be voted back in under a democracy.

[Aj12]

(Original post by MTR_10)
It's the government choice how they deal with protesters. Dare I say it is also none of our business.

They are many cases in the West where our leaders have done things which are not strictly speaking democratic or are a little heavy handed. That doesn't mean I would support people going out onto the streets with guns looting and causing havoc and then refer to them as a government.

But they weren't. They started off peaceful in Tripoli then Gaddafi started indiscriminately shooting protesters without any kind of warning. That's when things started to go from protesting and civil unrest to outright rebellion

[tillytots]

Good. They don't have complete control over libya yet and gadaffi has not stepped down so they shouldn't be recognised. Elections please.

[wazzup]

(Original post by Kelsey A)
Completely agree. There was absolutely no diplomacy involved in ousting Gaddafi. I still don't understand why the African Union where not consulted about Libya NATO and the western governments instead went to the Arab Union even though Libya has stronger ties with Africa and is within that continent. We also do not know who these people are and where they have the full support of Libya, giving them power may only lead to another civil war in that country.

you my friend have no brains.
can you please tell me how to use diplomacy against Gaddafi, a man who became so disillusioned? he is still fighting and his troops are killing kids, women, doctors and etc.

[Aj12]

(Original post by GwrxVurfer)
No he didn't. Stop trying to pass off your conspiracy theory as fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgsAl8QweMs

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-children.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...301967925.html

http://www.news.com.au/world/gaddafi...-1226010419285

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12789740

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...h-dissent.html

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13750560.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/wo...pagewanted=all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wow47cU1Jk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epRJhnxcp2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSZNH...ipcontrinter=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CoO00yczdc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsdeEz54Jv0

[Aphotic Cosmos]

Gaddafi was the AU's bumchum for two decades. He positioned himself as a "pan-African leader" (read: corrupt power-mad dictator) so of course they're butthurt.

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Aj12)
No I think the message more is if your government starts shooting peaceful protesters and you rebel the UN may support you.

*******s, they will support you if your dictator is unreliable in terms of promoting western economics or dared to support an attack against a western power.

if your dictator pursues neo-liberal reforms however, the UN's most prominent members will send you ****loads of arms with which to kill your own people and in some cases to kill people who rise up in neighbouring countries also.

[carbonite]

(Original post by Aj12)
No I think the message more is if your government starts shooting peaceful protesters and you rebel the UN may support you.

I completely disagree. Why don't UN, NATO, US,UK and France do the same in Syria? This is a huge gaffe by Obama, the UN Chief and co. The Libya situation may go down in history as one of the worst miscalculated 'interventions' ever. I am really sorry for the people of Libya. They wanted a democratic government, yes - they needed that; but the method and the backing of NATO was very wrong. A country which had the highest HDI in Africa(even higher than Russia) has now been destroyed. If indeed the mandate was/is to protect civilians, do they call REBELS civilians? Why then are they protecting REBELS? This is all a miscalculation and I hope Libya recover's asap. Very unfortunate.

[Aj12]

(Original post by carbonite)
I completely disagree. Why don't UN, NATO, US,UK and France do the same in Syria? This is a huge gaffe by Obama, the UN Chief and co. The Libya situation may go down in history as one of the worst miscalculated 'interventions' ever. I am really sorry for the people of Libya. They wanted a democratic government, yes - they needed that; but the method and the backing of NATO was very wrong. A country which had the highest HDI in Africa(even higher than Russia) has now been destroyed. If indeed the mandate was/is to protect civilians, do they call REBELS civilians? Why then are they protecting REBELS? This is all a miscalculation and I hope Libya recover's asap. Very unfortunate.

Because the conflicts aren't the same maybe?

Again this argument keeps coming up and I find it pathetic. So because he provided a fairly decent standard of living (despite a lot of unemployment) it gives Gaddafi's government the right to shoot protesters and use any means he likes to put down protests?