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BBC NEWS: Shafilea Ahmed's parents charged with her murder

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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    If you read this post in context, you'd realise it was aimed at the other poster, who tried to connect Islamics teachings of respect/honouring parents in connection to Honour killings.
    What I was pointing out was the fallacy of your argument when you said "Islam teachers us to respect our elders and for our parents to care for their children. Go figure honor killings in that.". Like I said there are many broad values that Islam teaches in one place (such as to care for your child), but then more specific teachings create a dilemma. Should a parent testify against their child in a criminal case, even if the result of such testimony would result in imprisonment or even corporal and capital punishment? The dilemma and contradiction is obvious. Hence why I was pointing out to you that you cannot say "Islam teaches X, so cannot possibly condone Y", because Islam raises these ethical dilemma because of contradictory teachings.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    If her parents did indeed murder her sister in front of her as alleged, then the fact that she could rob them 7 years later is not really that eyebrow-raising. I think having your sister murdered by your parents would change the relationship somewhat.
    The question is if, and it's a big if. Admittingly, we don't know the full case details which have been disclosed to the public, but making out with what we have, imo there's more chances of the girl being a liar than there is of the girl being truthful.
    It is possible that she is lying. It is possible that she is telling the truth. You put forward a circumstantial argument as to why she would seek to lie in order to bring her parents down, and it's perfectly reasonable to do so. However, the circumstantial arguments as to how she could be telling the truth are just as compelling. This is why circumstantial evidence has minimal power in courts of law. That's why we have judicial process.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    So your objection is the character of person giving testimony, or the fact it is only one person giving testimony?
    The person giving testimony and the circumstances in which it is given.
    So one person's testimony could be sufficient depending on the person and the circumstances?

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    If the person hated her parents for killing her sister, she would've told the police a long time ago. Clearly fear had little to do with it if she was willing to rob, tie and kidnap them.
    One circumstantial argument. Another perfectly plausible one is that her witness to the crime made her feel involved it in. She was a young teenager at the time of the crime, and you cannot presume that all young people would act in the same way. Reporting your parents is a big thing, especially when you are young and vulnerable. Her silence would make her feel complicit, and the longer the silence, the greater the sense of complicity.

    You cannot presume rationality to be the only driver in human actions. Some people would have told the police a long time ago, others in the same situation would need a trigger, and others may never tell. A broader and more mind is quite helpful in understanding these sorts of things. Human behaviour is not black and white.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    The question of innocent until proven guilty is not what I was referring to here, so not sure what the cut and paste is for. Just to point out though, that the judicial notion of innocent until proven guilty does not have its origins in Islamic law but in Roman Law.
    If you actually read quotes in their full (instead if skimming or getting carried away) nor I nor did the historian quoted state that the innocent until proven guilty law has origins in Shariah. Rather the author stated the western legal systems influence from the Shariah based on evidences presented.
    Except that is is not.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    And the law does have significance, because given the context of such a law applied, the parents would still be innocent, as no substantial evidences has been presented to render them guilty of the crime. It's also wholly related to Shariah, which is what you initially asked.
    I think you misunderstand the principle of the presumption of innocence, but never mind.

    You bringing it into the debate it wholly irrelevant either way.

    And witness testimony is actually considered substantial evidence in all courts of law, Shariah or otherwise.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    And finally, nowhere is the notion of innocent until proven guilty actually applied, as seen by the fact that people are charged and detained pre-trial in every judicial system internationally.
    Pre-trials are not as simple as your putting it, usually the majority of them consist in the prosecutors and defense attorneys coming to some kind of agreement, based on some lighter sentence or fee settlement - probably because the defendant knows they won't be able to win the case.
    I think it's becoming clear your level of understanding of legal issues. Pre-trial detainment is standard in every system in the world. I am not talking about "pre-trials", as a form arbitration and bargain, which is very much an American thing, and not relevant to pre-trial detention. Pre-trial detention is the arrest and imprisonment of somebody prior to trial proceedings (often called remand). This is the case in many murder cases, but also in any serious case where there is a perceived risk by the person being at large in society, or a belief that they may abscond. Note they are presumed guilty, even before the trial. This is standard. Would it be the case in a Shariah system?

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Otherwise like in this case, there's a proper trial where the defendant is able to defend their case against the testimony of the same girl who just tried to rob, kidnap and tie them. The prosecutors should attempt to provide the evidences against the defendants, and I believe a single testimony in such circumstances is not "enough" evidence. A person who studies law can probably shed more light.
    You've misunderstood what I meant with reference to pre-trial detainment.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    And I'll repeat, even those are deeply connected to the case understand the girl could easily be lying and could potentially be telling the truth, if it's 50/50 then you should give the benefit of the doubt to the parents in this case.
    In every case, the question of reliability of evidence is put to question, hence why a trial takes places. So the issue of a witness lying is hardly radical in this case, since that is questioned in every trial.

    How can testimonial evidence be determined as 50/50? 49/51?
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    http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16249414
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...barrister.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-18772766

    Wow.
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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/ju...a-ahmed-father
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    Oh dear. Starting to unravel.
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    Is her mum trying to get herself off the hook???
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    (Original post by Ray Bradbury)
    Oh dear. Starting to unravel.
    Omg I know right....
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-18797540
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18833734
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    When will this case end?

    How do you guys think this case will turn out?
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    I'm not sure why these so called honour killings receive so much media attention while there are more horrific crimes that go barely unreported. A few days ago I heard of a handicapped man who was abducted, tortured and executed in the US! hate crime apparently but it never reached the likes of Fox News or MSNBC.
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    (Original post by Jareth)
    I'm not sure why these so called honour killings receive so much media attention while there are more horrific crimes that go barely unreported. A few days ago I heard of a handicapped man who was abducted, tortured and executed in the US! hate crime apparently but it never reached the likes of Fox News or MSNBC.
    A lot of crimes happen every day, the media doesn't have room to report it all - if there are other things happening deemed more important or perhaps there's a legal block on reporting about it, or even that the topic isn't flavour of the month at the moment, it isn't going to get the same sort of coverage as this sort of thing in the UK where Islam is a hot topic at the moment and an honour killing is, if past media coverage is anything to go by, something rare. It's perhaps not fair and maybe some crimes are worse than others but I think that's just how the media works - and it's also hardly fair to family and friends of someone when they see people complaining saying "Oh, so-and-so is so much worse, so much more deserving of media attention" - I think it's quite disrespectful.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    So if this was to be held in a Shariah court, how would the evidence be treated differently?
    In a shariah court the parents and sister would be severely punished. That's because firstly- forced marriages are completely forbidden in Islam.
    Secondly- murdering your daughter because she didn't want to get married is forbidden.
    And thirdly- stealing is forbidden.

    The sister would get punished for stealing, but she may also get punished for not stopping this from happening.


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
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    (Original post by pinkspark)
    In a shariah court the parents and sister would be severely punished. That's because firstly- forced marriages are completely forbidden in Islam.
    Secondly- murdering your daughter because she didn't want to get married is forbidden.
    And thirdly- stealing is forbidden.

    The sister would get punished for stealing, but she may also get punished for not stopping this from happening.


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
    But the sister, other siblings and mum were apparently threatened by the dad to keep quiet and not ask about Shafilea otherwise he would kill them too. Would the sister be punished then? Especially as she was probably in danger as well?

    This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830
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    (Original post by diggy)

    If not that it would be suspicious a young girl with no family living by herself
    In Pakistan? Yes

    In the UK? No, not at all, this isnt unusual for a lot of young people
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    BREAKING NEWS

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/parents-gui...121201161.html
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    Hope the parents rot in hell

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