Training Contracts 2014
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xElliex
I know exactly how you are feeling. My only legal experience so far is couple of open days (CMS Cameron McKenna, Mayer Brown) and a 2 day work shadow at a local employment solicitors. I am going to be applying for some VS (and probably some more open days) alongside the TC applications.
At least you have that - I have nothing. I'm really hoping to be able to do something alongside my degree this year at uni. Really hoping for one day free a week so I can hopefully shadow/volunteer somewhere. I'll be doing the same as you as far as VS/TC and open days go.
This is scary ****...I don't want to grow up :'(
Original post by brownbear88
Good God! I'm a non-law postgrad, just starting to think about law, how on earth am I supposed to keep up with you seasoned law students and TC applicants? I've got a Masters dissertation to write alongside 20-30 TC apps.. nightmare!
Of course you're not going to be at the same point as students who have experience of applying or who have been researching and planning applications for months when you've only just started thinking about it.. You should probably send off a lower number of apps, as previously said, if you're not confident you can do them well. Besides.. If you can't manage your time effectively, you probably shouldn't be looking at a career in law
prettyprettygood
Hint: don't do 20-30 apps!
Original post by jjarvis
PRSOM.
I went through my LCN, as I had just been adding and adding more firms for the past year, and weeded out the ones I wasn't really interested in, and the ones I didn't like at fairs. I only managed to get it down to a :
Champions League of 4 firms - those that I want above all others
Spoiler
Premier League of 10 firms - I'll still crawl through a barrel of broken glass for
Championship of 10 firms - still pleased
Winnie Mandela FC of 14 firms - it's still a TC
Realistically, I'll put it all into the first 4, make a fuss over the second 10, and I think I'll play fast and loose with the next 10 - take some chances and so some wacky stuff. The last 14, in all likelihood I won't apply to unless I have nothing else to do (apart from actually reading LLB, of course).
That's still 24 apps - which sounds on the very high side. I'm thinking of reducing them to 4-8-8 or even 4-6-8.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Clip
I went through my LCN, as I had just been adding and adding more firms for the past year, and weeded out the ones I wasn't really interested in, and the ones I didn't like at fairs. I only managed to get it down to a :
Champions League of 4 firms - those that I want above all others
Premier League of 10 firms - I'll still crawl through a barrel of broken glass for
Championship of 10 firms - still pleased
Winnie Mandela FC of 14 firms - it's still a TC
Realistically, I'll put it all into the first 4, make a fuss over the second 10, and I think I'll play fast and loose with the next 10 - take some chances and so some wacky stuff. The last 14, in all likelihood I won't apply to unless I have nothing else to do (apart from actually reading LLB, of course).
That's still 24 apps - which sounds on the very high side. I'm thinking of reducing them to 4-8-8 or even 4-6-8.
Champions League of 4 firms - those that I want above all others
Premier League of 10 firms - I'll still crawl through a barrel of broken glass for
Championship of 10 firms - still pleased
Winnie Mandela FC of 14 firms - it's still a TC
Realistically, I'll put it all into the first 4, make a fuss over the second 10, and I think I'll play fast and loose with the next 10 - take some chances and so some wacky stuff. The last 14, in all likelihood I won't apply to unless I have nothing else to do (apart from actually reading LLB, of course).
That's still 24 apps - which sounds on the very high side. I'm thinking of reducing them to 4-8-8 or even 4-6-8.
Having four firms you really want to work at, and a further ten that you'd be very happy to work at seems ideal to me. I can't even imagine applying to 14, but for god's sake don't add 24 more to that number
(based on your post, the last 14 are last-ditch firms, which I guess is fair enough).I'd be very curious to hear these rankings, either on here or via PM. It'd be interesting to see if any of the firms I chose between are on there!
After my pretty massive effort and a handful of final round interviews, alas I have failed to clutch the training contract. Perhaps it is like a bird: grip it too softly and it will fly away, too hard and you will kill it...
But anyway, next round starts...well, not soon. But I graduated this year (2:1 woop...) and I really don't know much about VSs. I was silly enough not to apply during my second year although my first year results were somewhat disappointing. Any applications would invariably have been rejections. So, as a graduate, what are peoples thoughts on getting a VS?
But anyway, next round starts...well, not soon. But I graduated this year (2:1 woop...) and I really don't know much about VSs. I was silly enough not to apply during my second year although my first year results were somewhat disappointing. Any applications would invariably have been rejections. So, as a graduate, what are peoples thoughts on getting a VS?
Original post by Gorton20
But anyway, next round starts...well, not soon. But I graduated this year (2:1 woop...) and I really don't know much about VSs. I was silly enough not to apply during my second year although my first year results were somewhat disappointing. Any applications would invariably have been rejections. So, as a graduate, what are peoples thoughts on getting a VS?
Sorry to hear you haven't been successful this time around in securing a TC. I'm also a graduate and will be applying for VSs this year. There seems to be a lot of firms who accept applications from graduates for their vacation schemes. I'm not sure how many graduates get on these schemes but I am guessing it is just down to the strength of each individuals application. There are a handful of firms that I have come across who specify that the VS are for certain groups (eg second year law or final year non law etc) but you will just need to check the individual firms websites. I am sure someone on here will have far more knowledge on the process than me as I am still in the process of researching!
Are there any specific firms that you are thinking of applying to?
Original post by xElliex
Are there any specific firms that you are thinking of applying to?
Haven't done my research yet. A friend of mine did a VS with Herbert Smith. Whilst he was in his final year, he said he was often working with graduates who were already well into their legal career. Perhaps I'll give Herbert Smith a try, but I know they'll have top standards!
Original post by prettyprettygood
Having four firms you really want to work at, and a further ten that you'd be very happy to work at seems ideal to me. I can't even imagine applying to 14, but for god's sake don't add 24 more to that number (based on your post, the last 14 are last-ditch firms, which I guess is fair enough).
I'd be very curious to hear these rankings, either on here or via PM. It'd be interesting to see if any of the firms I chose between are on there!
(based on your post, the last 14 are last-ditch firms, which I guess is fair enough).I'd be very curious to hear these rankings, either on here or via PM. It'd be interesting to see if any of the firms I chose between are on there!
I'm actually interested to see how far I can "push the envelope" with the ones I'm meh about. One of them, a niche insurance/reinsurance firm has a pretty dreadful application form. I've redesigned it, and I'm sending it back to them, with all the macros and forms etc. They'll probably think "You arrogant little ****," and put the application through the shredder twice, but I just want to see what happens. On a good day, HR says "that saved us three hours".
On some of the other ones on the last resort list, I just want to try and call their bluff on what they've written in terms of who/what they're looking for.
Original post by Gorton20
Haven't done my research yet. A friend of mine did a VS with Herbert Smith. Whilst he was in his final year, he said he was often working with graduates who were already well into their legal career. Perhaps I'll give Herbert Smith a try, but I know they'll have top standards!
Jarvis chose Herbies, and to me, he's like some kind of Law Student Greek Hero.
Original post by Clip
Jarvis chose Herbies, and to me, he's like some kind of Law Student Greek Hero.
That explains the dodgy ankle...
(In earnest, though, I'm very flattered.)
Gorton20
x
Herbies are really nice, so if you like the look of the work and their ethos have a punt. Worst that happens is they don't take VS applications from grads, though I'd be surprised if that were the case.
By the way, I don't quite belong in this thread, so feel free to tell me to leave you guys alone...
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by jjarvis
By the way, I don't quite belong in this thread,
By the way, I don't quite belong in this thread,
No-one really belongs here. It's like an airport departure lounge where half the flights have been cancelled, but none of the passengers know which ones.
so feel free to tell me to leave you guys alone...
If this were real life, you'd have groupies by now.
Original post by midlandsman
So when do applications actually open for 2014 training contracts/vacation schemes next summer?
It depends on the firm and which VS you are applying for. I have a list of the deadlines for about 30 firms, they're all in a similar date range though.
Winter VS applications have a pretty short window, and they mostly seem to be for non-law students/graduates. For the firms I've looked at, they seem to open 1st of October and close either the end of October or mid-November.
A lot of firms open their summer VS applications on the 1st of October, some open the 1st of November, some open in early December. Pretty much all have a closing deadline for apps in late January though, but it's usually recommended to get your application in a while before then.
As far as TCs go, the deadline for most seems to be in July 2012. A lot of the websites haven't actually updated the information yet, and are still referring to the 2013 TCs.. I've found on a couple of websites though that their 2014 TC apps open in November.
Can I ask a general question (to everyone)?
How do the mechanics of this work? Are there several tranches of interviews? i.e firms offer their first choice people early, wait to see if they are accepted, see how many places they have left, and then AC/interview their next favourite and then so on?
What do they do? Start PFOing at the other end of the list?
Otherwise, it seems odd to me that some firms are offering much later than others, and the process seems to rather open ended - especially if candidates are holding one offer, rejecting others in anticipation of another.
Here's something I've worked out - let me know if I have this wrong:
How do the mechanics of this work? Are there several tranches of interviews? i.e firms offer their first choice people early, wait to see if they are accepted, see how many places they have left, and then AC/interview their next favourite and then so on?
What do they do? Start PFOing at the other end of the list?
Otherwise, it seems odd to me that some firms are offering much later than others, and the process seems to rather open ended - especially if candidates are holding one offer, rejecting others in anticipation of another.
Here's something I've worked out - let me know if I have this wrong:
Three Firms - Apples & Oranges(A), Bruges Salmon (B) and Cobblers (C). Each has 10 training places.
A total of 100 students apply for TCs this year - all of them apply to all of the firms.
What happens first? The firms pick the 10 they want, and then PFO - let's say the 50 that they think have no chance with them.
They immediately invite the top 25 to AC, on Sept 1st, and let's just say they reject 5, and offer the top 10 that they interviewed - but leave the middle 10 in limbo.
Our first candidate, Joan of Arc, gets offers from Apples and Bruges. But she really wants to work for Cobblers, but hasn't been invited to AC as she was 30th on their list.
Does she now have to wait until either 10 people confirm C (thereby closing their recruitment for the year and everyone remaining gets a PFO) or until 5 people turn down C - in which case, presumably they hold another AC and invite another 10 or so.
Either way, she's holding offers from A and B, which no-one else can take.
Our second candidate, Genghis Khan is holding an early offer from C, but he wants A, and he's 12th on their list. He's been to AC, but left in limbo. Basically, he's holding "Joan's" offer, and she's holding "his".
Talleyrand is our third candidate, and he has no offers, but was PFO'd early by A and C. He's on the reserve list for B, which he wants.
So what happens? Assume the offers have a 4 week life. What will happen, except time getting short and causing someone to panic.
Let's say Joan breaks first, she doesn't think she'll get offered by C, so on Sept 25th, she accepts A, and fills their quota. They now PFO everyone left, and she declines B.
Genghis now gets PFOs from Apples & Oranges. Genghis is now only holding his offer from C, and reluctantly accepts it.
Let's say the arbitrage works its way through, and Talleyrand ends up with an offer from B, which he happily accepts.
So, the because of the brinkmanship, the two "stronger" candidates ended up at firms they didn't want, but would have taken them. The "weaker" candidate (who was no-one's first choice) gets his firm of choice.
Joan of Arc: Apples & Oranges
Genghis Khan : Cobblers
Talleyrand: Bruges Salmon
A total of 100 students apply for TCs this year - all of them apply to all of the firms.
What happens first? The firms pick the 10 they want, and then PFO - let's say the 50 that they think have no chance with them.
They immediately invite the top 25 to AC, on Sept 1st, and let's just say they reject 5, and offer the top 10 that they interviewed - but leave the middle 10 in limbo.
Our first candidate, Joan of Arc, gets offers from Apples and Bruges. But she really wants to work for Cobblers, but hasn't been invited to AC as she was 30th on their list.
Does she now have to wait until either 10 people confirm C (thereby closing their recruitment for the year and everyone remaining gets a PFO) or until 5 people turn down C - in which case, presumably they hold another AC and invite another 10 or so.
Either way, she's holding offers from A and B, which no-one else can take.
Our second candidate, Genghis Khan is holding an early offer from C, but he wants A, and he's 12th on their list. He's been to AC, but left in limbo. Basically, he's holding "Joan's" offer, and she's holding "his".
Talleyrand is our third candidate, and he has no offers, but was PFO'd early by A and C. He's on the reserve list for B, which he wants.
So what happens? Assume the offers have a 4 week life. What will happen, except time getting short and causing someone to panic.
Let's say Joan breaks first, she doesn't think she'll get offered by C, so on Sept 25th, she accepts A, and fills their quota. They now PFO everyone left, and she declines B.
Genghis now gets PFOs from Apples & Oranges. Genghis is now only holding his offer from C, and reluctantly accepts it.
Let's say the arbitrage works its way through, and Talleyrand ends up with an offer from B, which he happily accepts.
So, the because of the brinkmanship, the two "stronger" candidates ended up at firms they didn't want, but would have taken them. The "weaker" candidate (who was no-one's first choice) gets his firm of choice.
Joan of Arc: Apples & Oranges
Genghis Khan : Cobblers
Talleyrand: Bruges Salmon
But let's replay that. Let's say Joan accepted Bruges Salmon instead.
That frees up her place at Apples, which Genghis takes. Talleyrand gets nothing.
Joan: Bruges Salmon
Genghis : Apples
Talleyrand : becomes a paralegal at Kyriacou Bros for a year.
By changing Joan's panic choice (both of which she was meh about), Genghis gets his first choice and Talleyrand doesn't get a TC.
That frees up her place at Apples, which Genghis takes. Talleyrand gets nothing.
Joan: Bruges Salmon
Genghis : Apples
Talleyrand : becomes a paralegal at Kyriacou Bros for a year.
By changing Joan's panic choice (both of which she was meh about), Genghis gets his first choice and Talleyrand doesn't get a TC.
(edited 12 years ago)
All in all, Clip, I think your story illustrates why you shouldn't apply to firms where you wouldn't like to do your training contract (unless you're a law student governed by the 1st September rule - presumably put in place for this reason).
When I was applying for training contracts I knew I would have to (for financial/personal reasons) accept the first one I was offered.
When I was applying for training contracts I knew I would have to (for financial/personal reasons) accept the first one I was offered.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Clip
Can I ask a general question (to everyone)?
How do the mechanics of this work? Are there several tranches of interviews? i.e firms offer their first choice people early, wait to see if they are accepted, see how many places they have left, and then AC/interview their next favourite and then so on?
What do they do? Start PFOing at the other end of the list?
Otherwise, it seems odd to me that some firms are offering much later than others, and the process seems to rather open ended - especially if candidates are holding one offer, rejecting others in anticipation of another.
Here's something I've worked out - let me know if I have this wrong:
How do the mechanics of this work? Are there several tranches of interviews? i.e firms offer their first choice people early, wait to see if they are accepted, see how many places they have left, and then AC/interview their next favourite and then so on?
What do they do? Start PFOing at the other end of the list?
Otherwise, it seems odd to me that some firms are offering much later than others, and the process seems to rather open ended - especially if candidates are holding one offer, rejecting others in anticipation of another.
Here's something I've worked out - let me know if I have this wrong:
This (the bit your worked out but that the quote won't show)* is an awesome level of dedication. Makes my eyes go a little funny though!
*edit.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Frances99
All in all, Clip, I think your story illustrates why you shouldn't apply to firms where you wouldn't like to do your training contract (unless you're a law student governed by the 1st September rule - presumably put in place for this reason).
When I was applying for training contracts I knew I would have to (for financial/personal reasons) accept the first one I was offered.
When I was applying for training contracts I knew I would have to (for financial/personal reasons) accept the first one I was offered.
Oh, I understand that 100%, but for the average candidate is the mentality not "any TC is better than no TC"? I suppose because you can hold on to two offers, you have until your time limit to play chicken. My point was to ask how this whole thing plays out, and if it's why some candidates are getting very late offers or ACs.
Original post by Brevity
Out of curiosity, does anyone know when the new Chambers and Partners Student Guide is released?
It's usually October time I think. I picked it up at my university's law fair, which was November. Don't pay for it though - you can get it free at the law fairs. In the meantime, the website has most of the same information.
Original post by Clip
Honestly I would give you a job right there and then. I struggle to understand why large organisations like law firms (not only law firms) can be some incompetent when it comes to things like this. Don't know if HR will see it the same way though!!!!
Original post by Clip
How do the mechanics of this work? Are there several tranches of interviews? i.e firms offer their first choice people early, wait to see if they are accepted, see how many places they have left, and then AC/interview their next favourite and then so on?
My understanding is that firms are generally not allowed to offer jobs before 1st September and have to keep offers open for at least 3 weeks. This mitigates the impact of the circumstances you describe by giving people enough time to determine which firms accepted them and which rejected them.
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