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Why Niall Ferguson Sucks

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You are dodging the issue - does Ferguson suck?

To answer your question - science/engineering are pre requisites to becoming a scientist or engineer - they are required by professional bodies. You're a student - and you don't know this?

Notice that I said, 'typical graduate job'. In other words, one which doesn't require a specific field of knowledge. The point I was making is that if you're applying for a typical graduate position, a science-related degree is no better than arts and humanities.

Reply 21

Clumsy_Chemist

Original post by Ory

3. Most people with a Year 10 education could also gather the facts from libraries, sources, and then write a lengthy opinion piece or book without even doing a degree; after all, apart from the letters, laws, facts and primary sources

Have you met year 10s??!! They don't have study skills. What little work they do involves copying from Wikipedia or each other.

Original post by Ory

Loads of science graduates go on to do other things - become teachers, lawyers, accountants, businesspeople, civil servants, the list goes on. Many jobs simply require a graduate, someone who is able to analyse, evaluate, *insert buzzwords* and generally be clever. That could be a historian, or it could be a linguist, or it could be a scientist. It doesn't matter - education is about more than narrow knowledge specialisms.

Reply 22

Ory

Yes, but leaving the issue of whether paying to study history at university level and then talk about it - something most people could do for themselves - aside for a moment, does Niall Ferguson suck?

I dont know where you went to school, but yes, Year 10s could do it. To many he looks like a Steve Jobs figure, people seem to worship him. Why exactly? I know 70 year old lawyers and doctors who are more articulate and know history better, more defined and confined in scope, sure, but better. Why? Because they realize that making vast sweeping generalizations about the history like NF does looks plainly obvious - and stupid.

Reply 23

Clumsy_Chemist

Original post by Ory

I dont know where you went to school, but yes, Year 10s could do it. To many he looks like a Steve Jobs figure, people seem to worship him. Why exactly? I know 70 year old lawyers and doctors who are more articulate and know history better, more defined and confined in scope, sure, but better. Why? Because they realize that making vast sweeping generalizations about the history like NF does looks plainly obvious - and stupid.

I don't know anyone who worships him :tongue:

Reply 24

Ory

40% of TSR says "He is the best historian in history - ever." Yeah, right, better than Tacitus or Herodotus? He also gets a lot of air time - and reaches 6 billion people more than either of those guys ever did. People mention his name hand in hand with "authoritative historian".

That's worship. Carry on.

Reply 25

Clumsy_Chemist

Original post by Ory

It's not worship, it's misguided enthusiasm for someone based on the fact that, unlike many of their peers, they're on TV. Not that he's ever going to be watched by the entire global population at once :tongue:

Reply 26

Young Pretender

Original post by Ory

I doubt that.

Reply 27

Stempede

Original post by Ory

Absolutely agree with Clumsy_Chemist on your view. Those people who take him as an authoritan historian say so, first of all, because he is widely-read and he has documentary films on TV. This certainly indicates success, even though it's more about talent of a businessman rather than brilliance of a scholar.
But you taking this point to the extreme comparing Ferguson to Herodotus. They lived in different times and pursued different goals, and surely NF knows perfectly well that he is no match to some of history idols.

Reply 28

Phantom_X

Original post by Ory

Wonderful. So something that most of us have with a year 10 education. That's why so many history grads end up working at McDonalds unless they luck out and become professors.

Wrong. Indeed, many average graduates do get lousy jobs- that applies for all grads. Ive met chemists and mathematicians who work at burger king and at BHS. And again, please debunk the myth that sciences/maths= automatic jobs. They don't. Indeed, science majors tend to have to pursue postgraduate work to even get a role working in a lab, and there is also elitism in terms of the scientists allowed to work on 'glamorous' projects. In fact, all the science students I knew from school are either pursuing PhD's because they couldn't get recruited, or they are working through grad schemes alongside historians, english majors etc. In this climate, unless you pursue medicine, you are in competition for jobs (and this applies to accounting too)

The fact is that anyone with a year 10 education and a Kindle can do what Ferguson does.

Ferguson has teaching positions at oxford, harvard and stanford, as well as Berkeley and other top universities. He has knowledge, and ideas that the 'casual reader' of History dosent get. If it was the case that you could get such knowledge in your spare time, then i'm quite sure that many more people would be much more aware of their own history in general. The reality is that this is not the case. Hate Ferguson or not, his intelligence has made him successful, much more so than your professor.

If you couldn't read between the lines with your history degree skills, the question posed was "What is the point of studying it at university and paying all that money to get a degree that will allow you to do something you could do while at the beach or on your tern schooner in the antipodes?". BTW, there's no need to answer that question, the answer is obvious.

I don't think you really understand. Essentially, any subject can be studied leisurely. To actually 'study' history, you need to be in an environment of discussion and debate, because what history is, is ideas that fit within particular paradigmns. That is why people see it as one of the most useful humanities, and one that is too often misunderstood in terms of its value because of people with your kind of views. The principle of course, is that had history actually been learnt properly, politicos, social scientists and other 'practical geniuses' might not have made the **** load of mistakes as they have done for the past century. but perhaps they should have spent more time on the beach then, right ?

Delivering an argument? You mean like this? Ferguson can't even win a conversation with Borat, and that should remind you of something -the thread is about Niall - not about whether you should spend 3 years or your life spending money learning something that anyone could do at home - carry on.

^ You are the one that brought up the validity of studying History. Also, why do you seem to think that historians= Niall ferguson ? There are plenty more who are much much better than him, and whether you like him or not is up to you, but you will find it is you that sidetracked your own thread.

Reply 29

Ory

Original post by Phantom_X

^ You are the one that brought up the validity of studying History.

There aint nothing wrong with studying history, but paying to do it and spending three years of your life doing it may be ill advised unless you want a job at McDonalds. It is obvious that most people who are reasonably literate could do it themselves with a Kindle, a library card, and some spare time. Almost half the members here polled say Niall is the greatest historian in history - ever. That's a fail in and of itself when anyone reasonably intelligent who actually understands history might say that he is like the Ronald McDonald of the history "profession".

The issue at hand is whether Niall Ferguson sucks.

Reply 30

Patriot Rich

I'm currently about half way through the Ascent of Money and so far so good, I've learnt a lot about economics from it and its really well written
Obviously I can't really judge him in general from that, but as an author, I think he's excellent

Reply 31

DJkG.1

He's a close-minded fool IMO.

I remember him complaining when a department of Islamic studies opened in Oxford - he sounded like a BNP nutter, moaning about the Islamification of Europe... mate, it's an educational faculty. We expect academics to be above that. Stop being a ****. :rolleyes:

Reply 32

Locke54

I love Niall Ferguson, just putting it out there. He's one of a few historians out there that actually has the balls to accurately analyse the British Empire and not to be scared of praising it's achievements. Political correctness has created a generation of historians who are afraid to praise the Empire because they're taught that we should all be sorry for it's mistakes and it's abuses. This feeling of guilt has grown to overwhelm the historiography of the subject and whenever someone breaks away from it they're shouted down as racists and neo-cons by the left wingers who created it in the first place or by post-colonialist authors/academics who have a chip on their shoulders.

Colossus and the Ascent of Money are great aswell. I have an A in A-Level Economics but I learned so much about Economics, it's history and the modern crash from the Ascent of Money TV series.

Reply 33

TheArsenal

Original post by Ory

Yes but does he suck? It seems that 1. History is not a pre requisite for any job and that learning accounting or languages would actually serve an historian better 2. These are things you can do in your own time 3. Most people with a Year 10 education could also gather the facts from libraries, sources, and then write a lengthy opinion piece or book without even doing a degree; after all, apart from the letters, laws, facts and primary sources - the rest is opinion and Ferguson's opinion is like anyones - in fact people are realizing the Emporer has no clothes. His former students who are now working at Jack in the Box must be ****ed that they spent 20 grand a year learning about stuff their uncle who is a doctor, lawyer, or dentist could talk about in their sleep.

Borat makes Ferguson look like a chump. Buchanan makes Ferguson look like a chump. Almost all of the 20 something law students at Harvard would make Ferguson look like a chump and probably say "what's the point"? as they could do the kind of thing Ferguson does in their spare time - and they wouldn't be as douchey about it.

You do know Ferguson was a Harvard professor?

Reply 34

Locke54

Original post by Ory

No, no they couldn't. You're speaking out of your ass and showing the ignorance of people who think that because they do something like accountancy they'll end up in a good job. Historians actually have above average job prospects. Your point is even less valid as we're talking about Economic History, which after all is what Ferguson does. Economic History requires as much knowledge of economics as economists themselves plus the skills of a historian. All of his works have economics at their centre, even his analysis of the British Empire is primarily an economic analysis. He argues that the Empire was a good thing because of it's economic impact. He dislikes the British Empire entering WW1 because it ruined Britain economically etc

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 35

Ory

Original post by TheArsenal

You do know Ferguson was a Harvard professor?

But a law student could out trump a history professor. Different caliber of intellect. Science, engineering, law, medicine - most of these students could do history equally well in their spare time.

Reply 36

Ory

Original post by ajp100688

No, no they couldn't. You're speaking out of your ass and showing the ignorance of people who think that because they do something like accountancy they'll end up in a good job.

Yes, yes, yes they could. And an accountancy degree is not a mark of excellence (I never mentioned it), but it is a degree with an end in sight - the public utility of a ticket to be an accountant.

Original post by ajp100688

Historians actually have above average job prospects

At McDonalds, yes. Or as a civil servant, or teacher, because no one in the private sector find them much chop.

Original post by ajp100688

All of his works have economics at their centre...

Which the public realizes is a half step up from astrology. Accountants are multiple times more useful than "economists", which is a pseudo science at best.

Reply 37

Abbadon27

After watching Civilization: Is the West History, I think he is a idiot.

Reply 38

Locke54

Original post by Ory

Yes, yes, yes they could. And an accountancy degree is not a mark of excellence (I never mentioned it), but it is a degree with an end in sight - the public utility of a ticket to be an accountant.

And since when have you needed to do a degree that leads to a distinct career path? If you look at most of our top politicians these days about the only vocational degree they ever do is Law. History graduates are over represented on the boards of FTSE 100 companies, most graduate job schemes ask just for a 2.1 not any specific subject.

At McDonalds, yes. Or as a civil servant, or teacher, because no one in the private sector find them much chop.

Funny that...considering 85% of History graduates from my university end up in graduate level jobs with a further 5% going on to further study.

Which the public realizes is a half step up from astrology. Accountants are multiple times more useful than "economists", which is a pseudo science at best.

Haha good luck in the future if you consider Economics to be a pseudo science. When you're working for Subway, you can tell the customers who walk in that you consider Economics a pseudo science, I'm sure they'll stand there in raptorous silence while listening to your nuggets of wisdom before they walk back to work in their office and earn 10x what you do p/a.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 39

Ory

Original post by ajp100688

Haha good luck in the future if you consider Economics to be a pseudo science.

It is, the public know this, apparently you do not, and the people who get jobs in finance would have gotten them in spite of their economics subjects. By the way, compared to a few years ago, finance as an industry is practically dead in the water if you knew anything about the real world. All those econ grads who have been thrown onto the street in their tens of thousands each year, cannot compete with accountants who have a ticket to provide services the public needs, not just a specific employer such as an investment bank.

I'm doing just fine; read my profile, and I will be partying with about a dozen models from Russia, Ukraine, Hungary and Czech Republic in a couple of hours. No economics degree necessary.

Now, let's talk about Niall again - if you can.