[Dr. Bassman]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
"Surely being "very hard to learn" is a bad thing?"

Not really - i think you saying that just highlights your overall lack of brain processing power - werent you earlier just bitching about mcdojos and 9 year olds getting karate black belts?

Clearly doing a degree in theoretical physics is superior to reading a kids book on albert einstein. The former may take many times longer - but you will become more well rounded and capable as oppossed to the latter that will only train you teach the subject to 10 year olds.

All the traditional kung fu styles were taught on the principles of learn everything you may need and execute it with precision' - not 'learn what you need to compete in a sporting event ina dojo' as judo was . Judo was quite literally marketed by the japanese to the westerner because they didnt want to teach the westerner the full jitsu or 'jutsu' systems in the early part of last century. It probably suits your limited capacity and certainly suits the other ufc teeny boppers that roll around their bedroom floors with each other getting hardons lol

amuses me too that you still bring up the "touch of death" as if you had any clue where that idea came from- just been watch some ninja movies have we?

Is this the same 'ground-based' judo that you were talking about earlier?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dr. Bassman)
Is this the same 'ground-based' judo that you were talking about earlier?

The judo that was invented for sanitised sport training, the Olympics and export to the west, yes.
Im happy to conduct an informed debate on this topic, just id rather speak with someone that doesnt get all their knowledge of martial arts from computer games and the ufc.
Preferabley someone with an iq above 2 digits who knows the difference between an armbar and a wrist lock ..{cough}Einheri{cough}

[Dr. Bassman]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
The judo that was invented for sanitised sport training, the Olympics and export to the west, yes.
Im happy to conduct an informed debate on this topic, just id rather speak with someone that doesnt get all their knowledge of matrial arts from computer games and the ufc.
Preferabley someone with an iq above 2 digits who knows the difference between an armbar and a wrist lock ..{cough}Einheri{cough}

Judo isn't a ground-based sport...

I don't even... are you trolling me?

[miser]

If you're looking for actual self defence (rather than for fun, sport or social reasons) then I'd suggest to stay away from martial arts that don't allow sparring - the conditions you practice in are the conditions you get good in. It's no good training for the 'street' if in your dojo you're training with all these extra rules and compliancy. You should also look critically at the arts that do promote sparring, since it's usually always one-on-one (which real-life altercations probably won't be) and in the case of BJJ for instance, they place a lot of emphasis on taking your opponent to the ground - that's great with one-on-one, but when your aggressor is out drinking with his friends his friends will probably just start kicking you.

On top of that I'd say try to stay away from particularly aggressive or lethal arts because for one thing you can't practice them properly, and secondly if you're always training to obliterate your opponent, that's all you'll know how to do. In the real world there are laws against using more force than is reasonably necessary. Krav Maga is quite a good example - it's developed by the Israeli military for steamrolling enemy combatants, so unless your club tones it down to using only lawful force then even if you do use it perfectly, you risk assault charges.

Sorry if I've repeated points expressed earlier in the topic, I didn't read it all.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by miser)
If you're looking for actual self defence (rather than for fun, sport or social reasons) then I'd suggest to stay away from martial arts that don't allow sparring - the conditions you practice in are the conditions you get good in. It's no good training for the 'street' if in your dojo you're training with all these extra rules and compliancy. You should also look critically at the arts that do promote sparring, since it's usually always one-on-one (which real-life altercations probably won't be) and in the case of BJJ for instance, they place a lot of emphasis on taking your opponent to the ground - that's great with one-on-one, but when your aggressor is out drinking with his friends his friends will probably just start kicking you.

On top of that I'd say try to stay away from particularly aggressive or lethal arts because for one thing you can't practice them properly, and secondly if you're always training to obliterate your opponent, that's all you'll know how to do. In the real world there are laws against using more force than is reasonably necessary. Krav Maga is quite a good example - it's developed by the Israeli military for steamrolling enemy combatants, so unless your club tones it down to using only lawful force then even if you do use it perfectly, you risk assault charges.

Sorry if I've repeated points expressed earlier in the topic, I didn't read it all.

yeh well thats round about what many have said - therea are the judo and bj brigade that will tell you their grappling is the best, but as has already been explained grappling is not the most effective form of self defence - it really is a last resort of self defence if you find yourself in that position.

proper martial arts spends huge amount of time on maneourvability, avoidance and speed and counter attack standing on your feet necuase thats the safeest way to defend yourself

[560g481]

Rex Kwon Do! Duh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9k...eature=related

[drummer]

Muay Thai

[Einheri]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
"Surely being "very hard to learn" is a bad thing?"

Not really - i think you saying that just highlights your overall lack of brain processing power - werent you earlier just bitching about mcdojos and 9 year olds getting karate black belts?

Clearly doing a degree in theoretical physics is superior to reading a kids book on albert einstein. The former may take many times longer - but you will become more well rounded and capable as oppossed to the latter that will only train you teach the subject to 10 year olds.

All the traditional kung fu styles were taught on the principles of learn everything you may need and execute it with precision' - not 'learn what you need to compete in a sporting event ina dojo' as judo was . Judo was quite literally marketed by the japanese to the westerner because they didnt want to teach the westerner the full jitsu or 'jutsu' systems in the early part of last century. It probably suits your limited capacity and certainly suits the other ufc teeny boppers that roll around their bedroom floors with each other getting hardons lol

amuses me too that you still bring up the "touch of death" as if you had any clue where that idea came from- just been watch some ninja movies have we?

I'm saying the simpler the technique is the more likely you will be to pull it off when it counts. For example, I'm well aware of how to perform a rolling toehold from inside open guard but it's a fairly complex technique so I probably wouldn't try it in competition or a real fight instead I'd pass guard or go for a simpler leglock. To go with your physics analogy - you're more likely to remember what's in your 10-year-old physics textbook than in your advanced textbook, because it is simpler.

The lesser mechanical difficulty of a technique is the more likely it is to work and the easier it is to learn. The highest level grapplers tend to have a very simple game. Roger Gracie wins most of his matches by taking full mount and collar choking them - you learn the collar in your first lesson! But he has perfected it to high technical level and its simplicity makes it a very high percentage technique. My old instructor Victor Estima recently won the 2011 Worlds by winning every match in his division with a standing toe-hold; a technically quite simple technique which he has perfected and repped over and over and which performs so well because it is reasonably simple. How many people do you see winning every time with rolling kneebars and flying omoplatas? None. Why? Because they are very complex and techniques which you use to supplement your basic repertoire of simple submissions.

And no, I don't think children should be given black belts.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
The judo that was invented for sanitised sport training, the Olympics and export to the west, yes.
Im happy to conduct an informed debate on this topic, just id rather speak with someone that doesnt get all their knowledge of martial arts from computer games and the ufc.
Preferabley someone with an iq above 2 digits who knows the difference between an armbar and a wrist lock ..{cough}Einheri{cough}

Jujutsu is all but extinct in Japan, whereas Judo is the Japanese national sport. it's not some inferior export fobbed off to the those silly gaijin. The two were tested and proven against eachother and Judo came off the victor. And Judo is 90% stand-up (tachi waza) and 10% ground-work (ne waza) - me and Bassman should know; we both actually practise Judo!

You seem to be going out of your way to pick arguments with me. Rather odd for someone who doesn't want to debate with me. And as I said before I don't play video games with any great frequency nor am I overly interested in the UFC.

We already debunked your idea that that guy was demonstrating a wristlock. I, and every other person except you who commented on it, thought he was attempting a retarded armbar not a wristlock. I'm not going to debate this with a non-grappler anymore - you're wrong, simple. I've clocked nearly a thousand hours of combined mat time over two years in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Judo and Wrestling, whereas you have some wishy-washy Kung Fu crappling - you're in the inferior position here in terms of experience and knowledge of submission-based grappling. You can go shove that Tiger Claw up your arse.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Einheri)
I'm saying the simpler the technique is the more likely you will be to pull it off when it counts. For example, I'm well aware of how to perform a rolling toehold from inside open guard but it's a fairly complex technique so I probably wouldn't try it in competition or a real fight instead I'd pass guard or go for a simpler leglock. To go with your physics analogy - you're more likely to remember what's in your 10-year-old physics textbook than in your advanced textbook, because it is simpler.
.

Techniques werent being discussed - the style or art of fighting was the point being made - traditional kung fu being some of the more complex and difficult styles to learn. Typically 20+ years because it covers so many differnt circumstances of fighting as well as some military style discplined and regimented attention to detail) And of course there as many styles of kung fu that are as different to each other as sumo to judo. This doesnt mean any would be my personal choice of training - im simply highlighting your ignorance on the subject.
Clearly the simplest Technique that works is the best to apply in a real situation -what are you doing here, having a stating the obvious competition?
In most scenarios where self defence is called upon, rolling around on the floor for leglocks is not the simplest technique available or the most effective. Thats the point you dont seem to be able to process - proper martial arts prioritise self defence and counter attack as oppossed to rolling around trying to score a match winning hold.

To the analagy of the textbook, what you remember and can apply will be based on the relative ability of the person reading it.

(Original post by Einheri)
The lesser mechanical difficulty of a technique is the more likely it is to work and the easier it is to learn. The highest level grapplers tend to have a very simple game. Roger Gracie wins most of his matches by taking full mount and collar choking them - you learn the collar in your first lesson! But he has perfected it to high technical level and its simplicity makes it a very high percentage technique. My old instructor Victor Estima recently won the 2011 Worlds by winning every match in his division with a standing toe-hold; a technically quite simple technique which he has perfected and repped over and over and which performs so well because it is reasonably simple. How many people do you see winning every time with rolling kneebars and flying omoplatas? None. Why? Because they are very complex and techniques which you use to supplement your basic repertoire of simple submissions.


.

Please dont bore everyone here with your experiences in pyjamas rolling around on rubber mats. The topic was self-defence, not your favourite sporting moments.

(Original post by Einheri)
Jujutsu is all but extinct in Japan, whereas Judo is the Japanese national sport. it's not some inferior export fobbed off to the those silly gaijin. The two were tested and proven against eachother and Judo came off the victor. And Judo is 90% stand-up (tachi waza) and 10% ground-work (ne waza) - me and Bassman should know; we both actually practise Judo! .

Sport being the operative word. Football is the national sport over here in the UK. Thanks for the pointless trivia though.

(Original post by Einheri)
You seem to be going out of your way to pick arguments with me. Rather odd for someone who doesn't want to debate with me. And as I said before I don't play video games with any great frequency nor am I overly interested in the UFC. .

Not really, you bore me infact but for some reason am compelled to correct you when you post bull toward other people. I will try and lessen this i think anyway.

(Original post by Einheri)
We already debunked your idea that that guy was demonstrating a wristlock. I, and every other person except you who commented on it, thought he was attempting a retarded armbar not a wristlock. I'm not going to debate this with a non-grappler anymore - you're wrong, simple. I've clocked nearly a thousand hours of combined mat time over two years in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Judo and Wrestling, whereas you have some wishy-washy Kung Fu crappling - you're in the inferior position here in terms of experience and knowledge of submission-based grappling. You can go shove that Tiger Claw up your arse.

Dont bother trying to second guess what i do or dont know about grappling, it doesnt matter to me what idiots think of my training- its still clearly ten times more than you given that couldnt spot an obvious wristlock in the trolling picture you trawled off the internet and then give some bull about 'debunking it'. Pretty embarrassing. It doesnt matter to me either how much time youve spent rolling around on a mat, you clearly have no clue what you are doing there.

Ill leave you with this point -The techniques of ju-do the sport came from a jitsu - a fighting style. Those original grappling techniques of Ju- jitsu came from india via china and therefore kung fu. Or didnt you know this either ?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Clip)
**EDIT** There is that guy that calls himself Meerkatsu or something. Used to teach traditional JJ at Imperial College for a long time before seeing the light. Pretty sure he's Chinese and I think he's a Brown belt now.

He's case in point. A guy that spent years living and breathing Traditional Jiu Jitsu, and ran his own club. All it took was a few minutes of BJJ to demonstrate that it was all a waste of time. He left his school with someone else and became a student at a BJJ club - I think he's at Mill Hill BJJ now - which ironically is run by Nick Brooks, who himself ran a Traditional Jiu Jitsu club, before also getting real.

Or possibly that he just saw all the teeny ufc wannabies queing up for BJJ classes, having never heard of it 10 years ago, and realised he'd make 10 times the money in bjj than teaching traditional JJ. A fully trained JJ guy can transition easily to BJJ, Judo becuase of the simplification, they cant do it the otherway round so easily. Isnt mma all about making money afterall? same reason why kids went to judo school to pick up blackbelts in their early teens, rather than train proper, complete jiujitsu where they would find themselves challenged to work hard for an extra 10 years to get that black belt.

'Getting real' is down to time perspective and what you want to achieve ie the average USMC grunt takes on 13 weeks to train at boot camp, US Navy SEALS take at least 5 times that.