[Still_Water]

(Original post by Planar)
We need a pragmatic approach to it. A lot of eurosceptics don't seem to realise just how ruinous it would be to leave the EU

This. The EU is currently the biggest market in the world, with very high degree of free trade. Leaving would put us at quite a disadvantage, at a time where we don't really have the resources to do that.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Aj12)
The EU should be scaled back to free trade and maybe free travel. Enough of this bull**** from Brussels adding another layer or laws over our own as well as interfering in our domestic affairs.

Indeed **** Bruxelles!!!

(Original post by juicy)
Post says it all vote in the poll and discuss

Well for the UK to leave would be a disaster to the UK as the UK gets more money back than it puts into the EU so really it is lose funding which is vital to some of the rural community projects but get back more control over legislation or keep extra funding and lose some control of legislation.

European Court of Human Rights isn't included in this which will have powers over some UK decisions whether you like it or not due to the UK being a signatory to the Human Rights Convention.

[YorkieLad101]

(Original post by Understudy)
Yes, the EU is an afront to our national identity and it is anti-democratic.

exactly!

[juicy]

Reboot

[Tahooper]

Leave the EU, but join the EEC.

[Vanbrugh]

Voted yes. Not because Britain would be better off without the EU, but that the EU might be better off without Britain

[abc:)]

Right on the fence xD don't know enough about it....

[A Mysterious Lord]

I'm on the fence here.

In 1973, Britain joined the EEC, a common market. It's a lot more than that now, I'd be in favour of remaining in the EU if it could remain a common market with free trade and if all decision making powers are returned to Westminster and Britain is completely withdrawn from the Schengen Agreement and Lisbon Treaty. If there's no movement from Brussels on law making, then we need out completely.

(Original post by Vanbrugh)
Voted yes. Not because Britain would be better off without the EU, but that the EU might be better off without Britain

We have the Commonwealth, which we can reaffirm our links with to trade - they don't

[Ministerdonut]

The main issue is that British people were given a vote on something different in 1973 and since then it has gone from the EEC ,EC to now the EU ,and with the change of names the nature of the beast has changed significantly.

My opinion is there should be a referendum on in or out as we cannot expect the other euro nations to alter everything just for us. I have no problem with other european countries integrating (although I think it is a shame as a nationalist to see national identities be flushed down the toilet) ,I certain don't have a problem with people from other european nations I do have a problem with our politicians not giving the people a vote on the EU project.

I think David Cameron is a disgrace personally ,and he is somewhat of a hypocrite to criticise other nations political and human rights when he won't give his own people a vote on something that effects every single one of them in so many ways. Our laws,our national identity,our immigration policies. I am all for human rights, I believe in a human rights act,but it should be a British human rights act tailored to the needs of our country.

It also should be a fair act for both the law abiding and the criminal,those accused of crimes , I think unfortunately, it has swung towards the criminal, this must change. Britain is an island race, we need different laws and legal system because the British man and woman need harsh laws and harsh punishments to keep us in line. We are a fighting people who likes a drink, we are not like those on the contintent.

I think to be honest it is time ,someone made a petition to the UN to say the British are not living under a total democracy and we require a UN intervention to force our government to give us a referendum.If that doesn't work perhaps we need the US military to remove cameron and the rest from power. If it take US marines walking the streets ,so be it.

[Aphotic Cosmos]

(Original post by Planar)
We need a pragmatic approach to it. A lot of eurosceptics don't seem to realise just how ruinous it would be to leave the EU

Pragmatic? What is pragmatic about giving up control of a dozen policy areas to an undemocratic, largely unelected, unaccountable, corrupt and wasteful centralised government overseas? This has only served to increase government expenditure and decrease it's effectiveness at dealing with issues specific to Britain through being bound by EU legislation.

It would be ruinous to leave the EU without a replacement free trade scheme, but since the EU isn't going to reform itself any time soon, much less give up competencies (at which it is supremely incompetent, ironically - look at the CAP and CFP for starters) to national governments again, there's not really much choice if you want to live in a free country. Who said liberty ever came cheap? I would accept joining the EFTA for now, along with Switzerland and Norway, and eventually moving to bilateral trade agreements with our major European trading partners rather than a one-size fits all common market. In any case Europe is a market in decline, we need to be forging stronger bonds with India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, PNG, South Africa, etc. - not through some glorious United Commonwealth wet dream or anything, but through reviving our strong bilateral relations. The EU has done nothing for these countries anyway, in most cases the EU has actually damaged their long-term economic prospects by increasing protectionism within the EU and preventing nations, especially African ones, from trading with the EU on a fair and equitable basis.

[Tamora]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Indeed **** Bruxelles!!!

Well for the UK to leave would be a disaster to the UK as the UK gets more money back than it puts into the EU so really it is lose funding which is vital to some of the rural community projects but get back more control over legislation or keep extra funding and lose some control of legislation.

Not true. The UK is a net contributor.

European Court of Human Rights isn't included in this which will have powers over some UK decisions whether you like it or not due to the UK being a signatory to the Human Rights Convention.

We could decide whether it's in our interests, or not, to remain a signatory to the ECHR if we left the EU.

(Original post by Still_Water)
This. The EU is currently the biggest market in the world, with very high degree of free trade. Leaving would put us at quite a disadvantage, at a time where we don't really have the resources to do that.

Why would leaving put us at a disadvantage? Why is it good for us to allow an EU delegation under the direction of Cathy Ashton to speak for us at the WTO when we are one of the largest trading nations in the world ourselves? Even Alex Salmond is no longer sure whether he wants Scotland to be a member on breaking away from Westminster.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Tamora)
Not true. The UK is a net contributor.

Yes and you get more money back in funding plus the rebate.

(Original post by Tamora)
We could decide whether it's in our interests, or not, to remain a signatory to the ECHR if we left the EU.

That is all fine and dandy but that is not in the UK's interest.

[Tamora]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Yes and you get more money back in funding plus the rebate.

That is all fine and dandy but that is not in the UK's interest.

Which part of "the UK is a net contributor" do you not understand?

What is in the interests of the UK is for the people of the UK to decide. Admittedly, the people keep voting for parties which support EU membership, but the EU can't rely on that state of affairs forever.

[Llamageddon]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Yes and you get more money back in funding plus the rebate.

I don't think you're grasping the phrase "net contributor". The amount that the UK receives is lower than the amount it pays out.

I don't personally think we should leave the EU but more renegotiate our current arrangements. The size of the UK economy and its importance within Europe put us in a position where we could show more teeth than we're currently doing. There's a lot in the EU that I would want to keep and also things that I wouldn't, so why not aim to keep the good and lose the bad?

[Tamora]

(Original post by Llamageddon)
I don't think you're grasping the phrase "net contributor". The amount that the UK receives is lower than the amount it pays out.

I'm grasping the phrase exactly; it means means exactly what you say, so when an earlier poster said, "the UK gets more money back than it puts into the EU" I said the UK is a net contributor, ie it hands over more than it receives.

I don't personally think we should leave the EU but more renegotiate our current arrangements. The size of the UK economy and its importance within Europe put us in a position where we could show more teeth than we're currently doing. There's a lot in the EU that I would want to keep and also things that I wouldn't, so why not aim to keep the good and lose the bad?

I also think the EU has some good points, but I don't think you realise what you'd be asking the EU to do. Its whole decision making process is so tortuous that no one will volunteer to go back over old ground. The treaties would need to renegotiated and it woud need the consent of the other 26 members before any such renegotiation could take place. David Cameron has said he doesn't want a fight with the EU, so he has no intention of showing any "teeth", and it would cause a hell of a fight if he did. We're already considered "bad Europeans" when we're fairly co-operative!

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Llamageddon)
I don't think you're grasping the phrase "net contributor". The amount that the UK receives is lower than the amount it pays out.

Admittedly I didn't get it straight away (still celebrating Freshers ) but last I checked the UK got much of their money back mainly via rebates, there are figures from eurosceptics that are higher and tip the scales to the other side in that the UK is worse off....

[Pride]

Let's not forget that the biggest buyer of UK exports is the EU. And where do we get the most of our imports? you guessed it, the EU. We depend to much on that marketplace, way too much to dare leave it.

[Tamora]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Admittedly I didn't get it straight away (still celebrating Freshers ) but last I checked the UK got much of their money back mainly via rebates, there are figures from eurosceptics that are higher and tip the scales to the other side in that the UK is worse off....

Who'd you check with?

[Llamageddon]

(Original post by Tamora)
I'm grasping the phrase exactly; it means means exactly what you say, so when an earlier poster said, "the UK gets more money back than it puts into the EU" I said the UK is a net contributor, ie it hands over more than it receives.

hence why I quoted him rather than you!

I also think the EU has some good points, but I don't think you realise what you'd be asking the EU to do. Its whole decision making process is so tortuous that no one will volunteer to go back over old ground. The treaties would need to renegotiated and it woud need the consent of the other 26 members before any such renegotiation could take place. David Cameron has said he doesn't want a fight with the EU, so he has no intention of showing any "teeth", and it would cause a hell of a fight if he did. We're already considered "bad Europeans" when we're fairly co-operative!

We've gained concessions before and other countries have managed to effectively squirm their way out of things. Cameron might be muted but Osborne is already laying groundwork with terms like "multi-speed europe".

Just a word of caution to the "in/out ref" supporters. Are you sure you would win it? Britain may well be eurosceptic but big business overwhelmingly supports EU membership which would give the staying in campaign the financial backing and credibility it would need in order to win. And what if it's lost? Imagine what the EU would do with that sort of mandate

[Aphotic Cosmos]

(Original post by Pride)
Let's not forget that the biggest buyer of UK exports is the EU. And where do we get the most of our imports? you guessed it, the EU. We depend to much on that marketplace, way too much to dare leave it.

And that is precisely the problem - we are dependent on this declining, bureaucratic, increasingly insignificant marketplace and ignoring the potential of the nations of the Commonwealth, of Latin America, of Asia. That's just silly.