[zaliack]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
I'd like a gradual withdrawal to try and maintain relations as far as possible. Refusing to hand over any new powers and re negotiating where possible. Eventually we'll get to the point where the organisation works for us once again, as the primarily economic union should be, or we leave hopefully fairly amiably.

We've done that - European Union Act 2011 - and only at a cost of £30m per referendum!

[Bohedie]

I think we should withdraw but not now as it will be too expensive. Just wait a few months and it will be dissolved anyway :/

However it's a fact that we need to dramatically increase our manufacturing of products to trade if we want to be taken seriously as a lone country on such a harsh global platform. We need to have what people want and find desirable to survive otherwise the open trade agreements we have in the EU will be sorely missed

[Alpharius]

We would be worse off leaving the EU. The free trade does outweigh the cost of membership.

I can fully understand why many want out, especially considering the economic world has taken a battering these last 5 years. You have to take the bad with the good though, boom is inevitably followed by slump, and occasionally bust. We're just in one of those bust periods now, the economy will recover (eventually).

So long as we stay out of the Euro, I will be happy to stay in the EU.

[zaliack]

(Original post by Alpharius)
We would be worse off leaving the EU. The free trade does outweigh the cost of membership.

I can fully understand why many want out, especially considering the economic world has taken a battering these last 5 years. You have to take the bad with the good though, boom is inevitably followed by slump, and occasionally bust. We're just in one of those bust periods now, the economy will recover (eventually).

So long as we stay out of the Euro, I will be happy to stay in the EU.

Well, if you believe the Governor of the Bank of England, there was no boom, just a bust

[Alpharius]

(Original post by zaliack)
Well, if you believe the Governor of the Bank of England, there was no boom, just a bust

No, I don't listen to what bankers say. Who does?

[chrisawhitmore]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
I'd like a gradual withdrawal to try and maintain relations as far as possible. Refusing to hand over any new powers and re negotiating where possible. Eventually we'll get to the point where the organisation works for us once again, as the primarily economic union should be, or we leave hopefully fairly amiably.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think this approach will make any headway. Renegotiating the CAP, for example, has been an objective of almost every UK government since we begun negotiations to join the community and we are yet to make meaningful progress.

[Cannotbelieveit]

(Original post by Alpharius)
We would be worse off leaving the EU. The free trade does outweigh the cost of membership.

EU and Free Trade are two fairly different things.

Norway and Switzerland enjoy free trade with EU members, but are not part of the EU.

[someguy113]

(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
So we'll have a higher GDP per capita, less than half the debt to GDP, the second best HDI quality of life score in the world, lower inflation, higher GDP growth, no negative outlook on our credit rating, a smaller deficit in terms of GDP, an overall trade surplus and the ability to set our own laws.

Sounds good to me.

Yeah, but they're still an irrelevance globally.

[ANARCHY__]

(Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
EU and Free Trade are two fairly different things.

Norway and Switzerland enjoy free trade with EU members, but are not part of the EU.

This doesn't explain the hindrances, if any, caused through the member title of an economic bloc.

[chrisawhitmore]

(Original post by someguy113)
Yeah, but they're still an irrelevance globally.

I would rather be an irrelevant and prosperous than join in with the EU's extremely globally relevant slide into poverty.

As to the relevance of the EU, western europe, here meaning the 15 EU members prior to the admission of the ex-communist states in 2004 has seen its share of Global GDP drop by over 10% between 1974 and 2009. It is predicted, by the EU, to have dropped a further 10% by 2020. In the same time frame (1974-2009) US share of global GDP grew just over 0.3%.

The EU is only helping Britain become economically irrelevant, whilst simultaneously removing our reputation as an advocate of democracy.

[Brandmon]

(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
I would rather be an irrelevant and prosperous than join in with the EU's extremely globally relevant slide into poverty.

Do explain (in a logical manner) how we are becoming poorer as a result of EU membership.

[Llamageddon]

EFTA nations are subjected to the vast majority of regulations that EU member states are yet have next to no say in them. I really don't see how this would be better for UK sovereignty. I think there are serious issues with the EU, many of its policies, going beyond its remit and the general quality of MEP's (which is atrocious), but I can't see how leaving it would improve our situation.

[chrisawhitmore]

(Original post by Brandmon)
Do explain (in a logical manner) how we are becoming poorer as a result of EU membership.

Aside from the figures in the last post which show that the EU decreases its members' global GDP share, even in conditions where others are holding steady or growing, how about the way it has ruined our fishing industry. What about the extra taxes needed to pay for the bureaucracy or the regulations which cost EU businesses an estimated half a trillion euros a year, or the trade deals in which the interests of the UK are secondary to those of other countries. Perhaps those are making us poorer.

[Brandmon]

(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
Aside from the figures in the last post which show that the EU decreases its members' global GDP share, even in conditions where others are holding steady or growing, how about the way it has ruined our fishing industry. What about the extra taxes needed to pay for the bureaucracy or the regulations which cost EU businesses an estimated half a trillion euros a year, or the trade deals in which the interests of the UK are secondary to those of other countries. Perhaps those are making us poorer.

First of all you are using percentages in a misleading way. In the past 5 years I have grown in height 1000% more than my dad, does that mean that my dad should start worrying about his height? The same counts for economies: emerging economies are inevitably going to grow faster than established ones. What we witnessed in the past 10 years is nations such as China, Brazil and India growing towards their full potential and thus the balance of economic power shifting more equally. As Westerners, we are hardly entitled to 80% of the world's economic power given that we hardly constitute 20% of the world's population.

Secondly the fishing industry was in decline despite of the EU. EU Fishery policies were hardly significant towards even ruining the fishing industry. In any case, the fishing industry was neglected by the national government itself, clearly having in the past few decades focused towards a service-oriented economy.

Thirdly, direct taxation is only done by nation states. The EU doesn't need taxes because it builds its budget via negotiated direct contributions by individual member states. And before you suggest that leaving the EU in favour of the EEA alleviates us from such a burden, think again. Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland, which is are not EU members, still contributes via the EEA directly towards Eastern European countries - amounting to contributions of 1.3 billion euros over a period of 5 years. To put it into perspective, considering that the British government budget is 5 times larger than the mentioned nations combined, it would amount to contributions of 1.3 billion euros a year. Sounds familiar? And that only counts direct contributions towards other member states - the EEA still contributes further in other area, even directly to institutions of the EU.

And if there are any particular trade deals that caused us much economic loss, please do mention them. Very likely it was our fault in the first place because the British government itself accepted such a trade deal. Nothing in the EU is enforced - only negotiated. It is the lack of ability of the British government to negotiate favourable positions when necessary that gets us worse off in the EU in the first place. We should start acting like the 2nd Largest economy within the EU if we are to benefit, rather than just being a nuisance for the mainland.

[chrisawhitmore]

(Original post by Brandmon)
First of all you are using percentages in a misleading way. In the past 5 years I have grown in height 1000% more than my dad, does that mean that my dad should start worrying about his height? The same counts for economies: emerging economies are inevitably going to grow faster than established ones. What we witnessed in the past 10 years is nations such as China, Brazil and India growing towards their full potential and thus the balance of economic power shifting more equally. As Westerners, we are hardly entitled to 80% of the world's economic power given that we hardly constitute 20% of the world's population.

Secondly the fishing industry was in decline despite of the EU. EU Fishery policies were hardly significant towards even ruining the fishing industry. In any case, the fishing industry was neglected by the national government itself, clearly having in the past few decades focused towards a service-oriented economy.

Thirdly, direct taxation is only done by nation states. The EU doesn't need taxes because it builds its budget via negotiated direct contributions by individual member states. And before you suggest that leaving the EU in favour of the EEA alleviates us from such a burden, think again. Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland, which is are not EU members, still contributes via the EEA directly towards Eastern European countries - amounting to contributions of 1.3 billion euros over a period of 5 years. To put it into perspective, considering that the British government budget is 5 times larger than the mentioned nations combined, it would amount to contributions of 1.3 billion euros a year. Sounds familiar? And that only counts direct contributions towards other member states - the EEA still contributes further in other area, even directly to institutions of the EU.

And if there are any particular trade deals that caused us much economic loss, please do mention them. Very likely it was our fault in the first place because the British government itself accepted such a trade deal. Nothing in the EU is enforced - only negotiated. It is the lack of ability of the British government to negotiate favourable positions when necessary that gets us worse off in the EU in the first place. We should start acting like the 2nd Largest economy within the EU if we are to benefit, rather than just being a nuisance for the mainland.

Well, a 1.3 bn net contribution to the EU does sound familiar, as it is about an eighth of our current net contribution. As to the trade deals, it seems obvious to me that a treaty negotiated on behalf of 27 people will not serve the interests of one of those as well as an individual treaty. As to joining the EEA, I wouldn't. The EFTA is more than enough Europe for me. The decline in GDP share is significant, as of the two major western economic powers in the 1970s, the EU has lost share and the US hasn't. The small state advantage is what made Europe world leaders, and the EU is what is losing us that position.

[arebours]

Interested to hear some expansion on how people think the EU is undemocratic, and why this is such an affront to Britain. Our political system is hardly democratic even comparatively.

[RyanT]

I am pro-European but the EU has failed to represent the interests of European peoples. It is meaningless to be European, if the nations of Europe are replaced by immigrants from the third world.

The EU has toxically felt that in order to have a European identity, it had to destroy every national one in Europe. This is deeply misguided. I feel solidarity with the Dutch, not because I am European but because I am English. The misguided destruction of European nations has to be halted and that is only possible by leaving the EU.

We can easily set up an alternative organisation for cooperation in Europe with likeminded states.

Part of the problem with the EU is that it is too political. An organisation that ensures car standards across Europe are harmonised is to be welcomed, the bad old days when certain models of Italian cars couldn't be sold in Austria because they were 16mm off the Austrian standards, shouldn't be returned to. But there is no reason why a pan-EU organisation should be forcing diversity and immigration on EU states. It has overstepped its remit and should be left to die at the wayside.

(Original post by arebours)
Interested to hear some expansion on how people think the EU is undemocratic, and why this is such an affront to Britain. Our political system is hardly democratic even comparatively.

+1

The people who scream about it not having a directly elected president are the same ones who would oppose any moves to have a directly elected president because it would be trying to turn the EU into a country.

The EU has issues, but not with democracy.

[Brandmon]

(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
Well, a 1.3 bn net contribution to the EU does sound familiar, as it is about an eighth of our current net contribution. As to the trade deals, it seems obvious to me that a treaty negotiated on behalf of 27 people will not serve the interests of one of those as well as an individual treaty. As to joining the EEA, I wouldn't. The EFTA is more than enough Europe for me. The decline in GDP share is significant, as of the two major western economic powers in the 1970s, the EU has lost share and the US hasn't. The small state advantage is what made Europe world leaders, and the EU is what is losing us that position.

Can you please actually use statistics to base your claims? First of all growth within the EU is not at all uniform and very dependant on nation state. Secondly average growth within the EU and US was average. The recession his us both equally for example.

[tomcol23]

(Original post by chrisawhitmore)
To be perfectly honest, I don't think this approach will make any headway. Renegotiating the CAP, for example, has been an objective of almost every UK government since we begun negotiations to join the community and we are yet to make meaningful progress.

Exactly, attempting to repatriate powers has been a complete waste of time. The referendum that has also been placed by this government is utter nonsense, when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon Treaty Ireland were told to have another referendum until the answer was yes to the Lisbon and the same will happen to us. If we were to vote no, which this country would, to treaty changes we would be told to have another referendum until the answer be yes.

I am all in favour of working with Europe, trading with Europe, but not being run by Europe. This argument that some people are making who are saying if we were to leave the EU we would no longer get free trade with members of the EU is absolute rubbish. Do you really expect Germany to say you can no longer have our cars, the french to say you can no longer have our wine and the Italians to say you can no longer have our pasta? Quite frankly, they would say yes, we import more from EU than what we get back. Therefore the EU would set up a trade agreement with the UK if we were to leave the EU, as the EU does with Switzerland, Norway, Russia, US, China, India, Australia, South Korea etc.

If anything the EU actually damages our economy, EU regulation on our export sector is supposedly around £8 Billion to £20 Billion and therefore reduces the incentive for people in the UK to set up small businesses.

Personally, I dont think the UK should leave the EU now, but we should attempt to repatriate some powers from Europe as soon as there is a conservative majority government.

[Brandmon]

(Original post by tomcol23)
Exactly, attempting to repatriate powers has been a complete waste of time. The referendum that has also been placed by this government is utter nonsense, when Ireland voted no to the Lisbon Treaty Ireland were told to have another referendum until the answer was yes to the Lisbon and the same will happen to us. If we were to vote no, which this country would, to treaty changes we would be told to have another referendum until the answer be yes.

I am all in favour of working with Europe, trading with Europe, but not being run by Europe. This argument that some people are making who are saying if we were to leave the EU we would no longer get free trade with members of the EU is absolute rubbish. Do you really expect Germany to say you can no longer have our cars, the french to say you can no longer have our wine and the Italians to say you can no longer have our pasta? Quite frankly, they would say yes, we import more from EU than what we get back. Therefore the EU would set up a trade agreement with the UK if we were to leave the EU, as the EU does with Switzerland, Norway, Russia, US, China, India, Australia, South Korea etc.

If anything the EU actually damages our economy, EU regulation on our export sector is supposedly around £8 Billion to £20 Billion and therefore reduces the incentive for people in the UK to set up small businesses.

Personally, I think the UK should leave the EU now, being in the EU whilst the Euro is close to collapsing would prove to be highly damaging to our economy.

Can you list examples where we are being run by Europe, as opposed to run by ourselves? And if you can back up your claim of an £8-20 billion regulation by the EU, that would be lovely.