[arebours]

(Original post by Brandmon)
Can you list examples where we are being run by Europe, as opposed to run by ourselves? And if you can back up your claim of an £8-20 billion regulation by the EU, that would be lovely.

+1 and if the OP could also explain how if the Euro collapsed being in the EU causes more damage to 'our' economy than if we weren't in the EU.

[Zyyz]

No chance! That means England won't be in the Euro's anymore, and we'll have to wait 4 years until each tournament, we never win but the atmosphere when we play AWSOME!! Such a love hate relationship

[TheIronist]

(Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
I'm on the fence here.

In 1973, Britain joined the EEC, a common market. It's a lot more than that now, I'd be in favour of remaining in the EU if it could remain a common market with free trade and if all decision making powers are returned to Westminster and Britain is completely withdrawn from the Schengen Agreement and Lisbon Treaty. If there's no movement from Brussels on law making, then we need out completely.



We have the Commonwealth, which we can reaffirm our links with to trade - they don't

What's wrong with the Schengen Agreement?

Is Britain even partially in the Schengen Area?

EDIT: FFS I just realised this is a very old thread. I didn't revive it though!

[tomcol23]

(Original post by Brandmon)
Can you list examples where we are being run by Europe, as opposed to run by ourselves? And if you can back up your claim of an £8-20 billion regulation by the EU, that would be lovely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-4-xienarQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_jKgyONu7Y
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/busine...n-6741678.html
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/foi_...turereview.pdf - that is a "lovely" one to read

List of ways we are run by Europe, well, obviously there is the regulation on our economy, which we have no say over. We have the CAP, CFP, the employment laws, the holidays laws, health and safety laws, an increase in the EU's budget, our borders in Europe...

If you wish to give me a reply on any of the information that I just sent to you "that would be lovely"

Look forward to hearing from you

[tomcol23]

(Original post by Zyyz)
No chance! That means England won't be in the Euro's anymore, and we'll have to wait 4 years until each tournament, we never win but the atmosphere when we play AWSOME!! Such a love hate relationship

Russia, Switzerland and Norway are outside the EU and they still play in the Euro's

[tomcol23]

(Original post by arebours)
+1 and if the OP could also explain how if the Euro collapsed being in the EU causes more damage to 'our' economy than if we weren't in the EU.

If we were outside the EU it would therefore be less likely that we would have the bail those countries out, whereas our money should be spent at home. Bailing out failing Eurozone member states is an absolute waste of time, look at Greece and Ireland for example, they are desperate to leave the Euro but they are being repeatedly being told to remain in it. The people should decide whether or not they want to remain in the Euro rather than the unelected European Commission.

[cesca42]

Economically (I'm talking purely about trade and not fiscal government budgets etc...) we should be a part of it.

Politically or fiscally? No way. They are beginning to encroach on sovereignty and for the moment I'd like the UK to remain a country on its own. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that there are elements within the EU that really don't like Britain right now (obvs pissed off that we didn't sign up to their euro :P )

I don't agree with things like the Schengen Agreement and also recent news that Britain could soon be forced to give benefits to Turkish immigrants (this is not anti-Turkish, this is the fact that Turkey is half Europe, half Asia and not even a part of the EU proper).

Ideally the whole thing needs to return to something like the EEC.

[muddywaters51]

of course they should leave the EU

[Brandmon]

(Original post by tomcol23)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-4-xienarQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_jKgyONu7Y
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/busine...n-6741678.html
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/foi_...turereview.pdf - that is a "lovely" one to read

List of ways we are run by Europe, well, obviously there is the regulation on our economy, which we have no say over. We have the CAP, CFP, the employment laws, the holidays laws, health and safety laws, an increase in the EU's budget, our borders in Europe...

If you wish to give me a reply on any of the information that I just sent to you "that would be lovely"

Look forward to hearing from you

Thanks for clearing up the regulation issue with sources, they are actually quite informative.

But on the being tun by Europe, I am hardly convinced that we are. The above things you mentioned, especially the CAP and CFP are hardly set in stone and unchangeable. If the British government saw that the terms present are not to our advantage, then we are in a favourable position to renegotiate the terms. That is what we did back in the Thatcher days, where she renegotiated the CAP from being completely unfavourable to us towards being more fair. The same could be done if such is the case today.

But why doesn't the British government be more forceful with demanding what is good for Britain? Because it is doomed against the Franco-German Alliance? Balls! The Germans and French have more to disagree about than we actually do with either. And we are hardly alone as a nation with our concerns about the EU. Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden share similar views. So why don't we rally their support?

I am not at all in favour (if anything, very much against) the unconditional acceptance of EU laws when we can do otherwise. But to leave the EU should only be our last resort. And I don't think it is wise to go for the last resort if we don't even try to actually be an active player within the EU - leading blocks of nations against what the French or Germans might want if necessary. Only then would the EU become a benefit to us. Otherwise, if we just maintain our quasi isolationist stance in this regard, we don't even need a referendum for an answer -we should just leave immediately!

And as a last point, having mentioned referendums, the EU doesn't have a say about that at all. It is up to the British government itself to start the referendum and nobody else. The problem of course is that the established government and opposition are unconditionally in favour of EU membership. And my biggest gripe in this regard is that if the British public is so eurosceptic, why don't we elect UKIP MPs to where they are needed - the House of Commons? Electing UKIP MEPs is as vain as that other attempt at European politics we should quickly forget.

(Original post by tomcol23)
If we were outside the EU it would therefore be less likely that we would have the bail those countries out, whereas our money should be spent at home. Bailing out failing Eurozone member states is an absolute waste of time, look at Greece and Ireland for example, they are desperate to leave the Euro but they are being repeatedly being told to remain in it. The people should decide whether or not they want to remain in the Euro rather than the unelected European Commission.

Umm no, it is not the European Commission that is forcing Ireland to remain in the Eurozone, but Fine Gael. Not the EC that has forced Greece to remain in the Eurozone, but PASOK.

[arebours]

(Original post by tomcol23)
If we were outside the EU it would therefore be less likely that we would have the bail those countries out, whereas our money should be spent at home. Bailing out failing Eurozone member states is an absolute waste of time, look at Greece and Ireland for example, they are desperate to leave the Euro but they are being repeatedly being told to remain in it. The people should decide whether or not they want to remain in the Euro rather than the unelected European Commission.

I don't understand the 'our money should be spent at home' argument. What, all of it? We shouldn't invest in foreign markets or involve ourselves in the global financial system?

Bailing out failing Eurozone states is not a waste of time. Indeed don't you realise that a collapsed Greece or collapsed Ireland would be more damaging to the European Economy (of which we are an integral part), than offering funds to bail them out?

[tomcol23]

(Original post by Brandmon)
Thanks for clearing up the regulation issue with sources, they are actually quite informative.

I agree with you on the basis that leaving the EU should be the last resort, in the original message that I sent I was just clearing up the issue on whether we would lose our trade with the EU if we had left the EU and how the EU does have a negative impact on our businesses.

I would have actually voted for a third way in this poll, such as changing our relationship with the EU. Obviously we should remain in the EU, but I would like to see the UK at some point repatriate powers back from the EU, it probably won't be under this government as the Lib Dems won't allow it. A referendum that I would support would be what powers do we take back from the EU such as the regulation, and other unacceptable EU laws.

[chrisawhitmore]

Some fun, and well cited information on how the EU spends our money from openeurope. This report highlights 50 wastes of money in the EU, ranging from the billions to hundreds of euros. Personal highlights include postcards sent to MEPs which cost over 200 euro each, 16 thousand euros to encourage farmers to connect emotionally with the land and 411 thousand euros on a dog fitness centre which was never even built.

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/Content...uwaste2010.pdf

[M4LLY]

Tell you what, this fence is quite comfortable...

[goape]

(Original post by Brandmon)
That is what we did back in the Thatcher days, where she renegotiated the CAP from being completely unfavourable to us towards being more fair. The same could be done if such is the case today.

the thing most favourable to us and anyone bar the french farmers (& french govt) (note - not french society as a whole) is there not being a CAP

[Bea492]

The biggest thing that bothers me about the EU is how much it drains our resources. Anyone of EU citizenship can just waltz into the UK and set up camp. We don't have the economy (or the room) to support that and yet the EU says we can't do much about it. However, I do fear repercussions if we left...

[LETSJaM]

(Original post by meenu89)
I would like to see us going back to something like the EEC.

100% agreed.

OP; free market yes, EU > Parliamentary sovereignty no.

<3 x

[TheIronist]

(Original post by tomcol23)
If we were outside the EU it would therefore be less likely that we would have the bail those countries out, whereas our money should be spent at home. Bailing out failing Eurozone member states is an absolute waste of time, look at Greece and Ireland for example, they are desperate to leave the Euro but they are being repeatedly being told to remain in it. The people should decide whether or not they want to remain in the Euro rather than the unelected European Commission.

Polls in Greece and Ireland consistently show that the overwhelming majority of the people want to remain in the Euro. Even right now with the crisis, over 50% of the Irish people want to remain in the Euro and 58% of the Greeks do.

[Tamora]

(Original post by TheIronist)
Polls in Greece and Ireland consistently show that the overwhelming majority of the people want to remain in the Euro. Even right now with the crisis, over 50% of the Irish people want to remain in the Euro and 58% of the Greeks do.

I've seen even higher figures for Greeks who want to remain in the euro than that. Curiously similar numbers vote for parties committed to tearing up the bailout plan ... which is very likely to mean their expulsion. Perhaps they display a stunning lack of understanding, or maybe they just need to understand that other European politicians, particularly those from Germany, are having great difficulty in selling these bailouts to their electorates. Greece has to make a choice - accept the bailout conditions or leave the euro.

Free spending countries aren't the only ones at fault here. The euro was faulty from the start.

"Newly revealed German government documents reveal that many in Helmut Kohl's Chancellery had deep doubts about a European common currency when it was introduced in 1998. First and foremost, experts pointed to Italy as being the euro's weak link. The early shortcomings have yet to be corrected."

See Der Spiegel

[Tamora]

(Original post by arebours)
I don't understand the 'our money should be spent at home' argument. What, all of it? We shouldn't invest in foreign markets or involve ourselves in the global financial system?

Bailing out failing Eurozone states is not a waste of time. Indeed don't you realise that a collapsed Greece or collapsed Ireland would be more damaging to the European Economy (of which we are an integral part), than offering funds to bail them out?

Whatever money we spend abroad should be spent with the approval of our own parliament and it should not be channelled through the corrupt and wasteful EU.

Don't you understand that we could keep pouring money into the eurozone bailouts for ever and a day? The situation is that bad and the euro is that fundamentally flawed! The clowns running it did not care. The clowns supporting it, including our own major political parties, cared even less. A currency union will not survive with members as diverse as Germany and Greece.

[A Mysterious Lord]

(Original post by Zyyz)
No chance! That means England won't be in the Euro's anymore, and we'll have to wait 4 years until each tournament, we never win but the atmosphere when we play AWSOME!! Such a love hate relationship

Ukraine, Russia or Croatia aren't in the EU but they're in the Euros.