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What would a Union Jack without Scotland look like?

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Reply 40
Original post by Osmond
Indeed, but surely this is a grand opportunity to include the Welsh on the flag (who've been British longer than anyone, I'd say. Besides the Cornish maybe). I suppose it remaining the same is quite likely.


But it's precisely because they've been "British" longer than anyone that they're not on the flag. Wales was conquered by England and therefore it became a largely unwilling part of England. Henry VIII was a bit of a reformer, and was a Tudor, who were a Welsh family. In 1535-42, he sought to unify the legal system of the principality with England's, officially creating a successor state (Wales subsumed under the "England" name).

In 1541, England also conquered Ireland, however, probably because Henry wasn't Irish, he couldn't get away with full unification. The land was nominally given back to the Irish nobility and the "Kingdom of Ireland" was established, largely controlled by the English crown, but still a kingdom by name.

In 1603, King James became joint ruler of England/Ireland and Scotland, and the first Union Flag was produced - it combined only the colours of England and Scotland.

In 1707, the dual flag was current for the official Acts of Union.

In 1800, there was a second Act of Union with the Kingdom of Ireland, which abolished the nominal kingdom. It was then that the Irish cross was added.

So the flag was created by two mergers, the English/Scottish a true merger, and the Union/Ireland a nominal merger. The point is Wales never merged, it was conquered by force, and then annexed to England with the Laws in Wales Acts 1535-42. It's all on Wikipedia.

I fully believe that Wales should be represented, in this day and age, but you can see the legal/technical reasons why it didn't happen naturally.
Reply 41
Original post by Steevee
I say, keep the flag as it is pretty much. But change the backround to black. Then put a Tudor Rose in the top left segment, and a dragon in the bottom right. Let's get this thing looking like a coat of arms rather than a traditional flag.


Something like this?

I approve :tongue:
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by thunder_chunky
No diagonal crosses.
Then there would be room to put in something cool like a dragon driving a car full of half naked women.


Can the car be on fire and the dragon have shades? :awesome:
Original post by Aphotic Cosmos
Can the car be on fire and the dragon have shades? :awesome:


Only if it's aviators
Original post by thunder_chunky
Only if it's aviators


Deal.

Now I know my purpose in life. To create this flag.
Original post by Aphotic Cosmos
Deal.

Now I know my purpose in life. To create this flag.


Indeed. It would be the coolest flag ever. It would have to be flown over ten downing street and Buckingham Palace of course
Original post by Ocassus
Number 4 pl0x


Looks alright, but doesn't the dragon being in the top-left corner imply Welsh superiority/seniority? Like the Union Flag's position on the flags of many ex-colonies?

How about the dragon in the bottom-left corner?
Reply 48
Original post by Malluma
This flag...



Made me snicker.


I'm not Welsh so I didn't hear anything. :colone:
Reply 49
Question: If the Union Jack changes, do all countries that incorporate the Union Jack into their flags also change their flags?
Original post by Snagprophet


There's 50 million English. Why do we need anything different for the sake of 3 million people (going by the notion that Northern Ireland has a red cross with a hand in the centre, so they'd identify with the red cross).

Sein Fein can have Northern Ireland. I'd whole heartedly love to see them try and subsidise them to the level that England can.


Once you're done being rude, you might want to check your spelling of Sinn Féin.
Reply 51
Original post by unamed
Question: If the Union Jack changes, do all countries that incorporate the Union Jack into their flags also change their flags?


Well if Scotland doesn't become a republic (i.e. becomes a separate commonwealth realm), then I don't see why they should change their flags. The fact is the monarchy of Australia, New Zealand, etc. is descended from the monarchies of both England and Scotland, so there's no reason to not have both represented in their flags.
Reply 52
Original post by Psyk
Well if Scotland doesn't become a republic (i.e. becomes a separate commonwealth realm), then I don't see why they should change their flags. The fact is the monarchy of Australia, New Zealand, etc. is descended from the monarchies of both England and Scotland, so there's no reason to not have both represented in their flags.


It's a good question. We'd have to see, really. Although I prefer some of these flags to the current Union Jack, I don't think they'd "go" with the blue on the Australian flag, for example.
Original post by Osmond
As Bob Dylan once said, the times are a-changing, and so we might have to consider some unusual possibilities. For one, Scotland seceding from the UK is definitely on the cards - it might not happen, yes, but what if it did? Would the Union Jack have to be edited to accurately represent the new sum of its parts?

I certainly think it would, although previous attempts to edit the flag to include Wales has never been very successful. In theory the dragon on the Union Jack would be quite inspirational, but it just doesn't look right in my opinion. It's even worse if you try cramming some yellow and black in there too, representing the flag of St. David.

I've come to the conclusion that the most logical form for the flag would be to simply colour the blue on the flag in black, as in this image:



I don't think that looks too shabby, does it?

To put it simply - the black would represent the Welsh, the red saltire is of course representative of the Northern Irish (that may be up for debate) and the St. George's cross would represent England. I think it'd be the most practical way of doing things - it means that all of the Union Jack merchandise only needs 1 quick colour change, after all.

I'm genuinely interested to see if anyone can come up with something interesting to represent a new Union Jack without Scotland. I invite you to share them with us in this thread.


White diagonal cross doesn't need to be there then, and just do the background white, the colour of both N.Ireland and England's flags backgrounds.
Reply 54
Original post by Moleman1996
White diagonal cross doesn't need to be there then, and just do the background white, the colour of both N.Ireland and England's flags backgrounds.


The black represents Wales because the background of St David's cross is black.
That flag looks like the pirate version of the union flag.
On a serious note



Yellow represents Wales.
Original post by unamed
Question: If the Union Jack changes, do all countries that incorporate the Union Jack into their flags also change their flags?


No, only the British Overseas Territories incorporating the flag in their canton would change it.

But it would probably be an impetus for New Zealand, Tuvalu, Australia and Fiji to change their flag as well as the various non-British dependent territories and states (Hawaii, New South Wales, etc.) to change their flags - either to keep the flag as might be popular in Tuvalu where the monarchy is very popular, or to a new flag without the Union Jack as would probably be the case in Australia and New Zealand.
Original post by Psyk
The black represents Wales because the background of St David's cross is black.


Wales has been under the control of the Kingdom of England for around 1000 years, and was not independent when the Union was created, nor added to the Union afterwards. It joined as a part of the Kingdom of England and therefore should not be recognised in the Union Flag.
Original post by Moleman1996
Wales has been under the control of the Kingdom of England for around 1000 years, and was not independent when the Union was created, nor added to the Union afterwards. It joined as a part of the Kingdom of England and therefore should not be recognised in the Union Flag.


Wales was a fairly distinct entity until it's legal subsumation into England under Henry VIII between 1535 and 1542, and increasingly so in the past 90 years since the disestablishment of the Church of Wales it has been a more functionally independent entity within the union.

The flag should represent the Home Nations. It does not presently, so it should be changed. Our flag is not esoterically symbolic like most countries - like that of the United States it has changed to represent an altered constitutional status as the Union has changed over time as the flag literally represents distinct entities and identities. The Americans have added 37 stars to their flag over the past two centuries as more states have been admitted, we have added the Cross of St. Patrick to ours to represent Ireland and now Northern Ireland. Wales has emerged again and become a self-governing part of the Union, so IMO it should be given it's rightful place on the Jack.

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