[soyasauce]

(Original post by mel0n)

time to stalk

nah joke i aint that desperate to know !

[mel0n]

(Original post by soyasauce)
time to stalk

nah joke i aint that desperate to know !

lol, thank God

[Tpos]

(Original post by mel0n)
Not tryna be a killjoy but there's no isnad for this that suggests it goes back to Abu Hanifa. In fact there are lots of 'sayings' attributed to him that it's hard to tell which is genuine and this is one that is untraceable afaik. If someone else knows otherwise then please say so

I got it fom a book called 'The wisdom of Abu Haneefah'.

The isnad is not always important imo - dont get me wrong ofcourse the right attribution should be given and you gotta ensure the right thing is being said but when it's things that don't affect things like prayer or other obligatory things but just show the right manners etc and are motivational or something then the message is more important than trying to always find who said it, if you get what I mean.

[soyasauce]

(Original post by mel0n)
lol, thank God

yu bet !

[mel0n]

(Original post by Tpos)
I got it fom a book called 'The wisdom of Abu Haneefah'.

The isnad is not always important imo - dont get me wrong ofcourse the right attribution should be given and you gotta ensure the right thing is being said but when it's things that don't affect things like prayer or other obligatory things but just show the right manners etc and are motivational or something then the message is more important than trying to always find who said it, if you get what I mean.

We'll agree to disagree then to an extent A report that isn't proven authentic is considered batil afaik. I agree with you to an extent, though the first time that story was ever reported was by someone from the Ottoman in around 968AH, and whether the story itself is important regardless of the isnad is dependent on whether everyone agrees on the 'replies' that 'Abu Hanifa' gave. But fair enough

Also out of interest how does that quote show the right manners etc? I'm not trying to have a dig at you lol, I promise, I'm just actually wondering.

[boromir9111]

(Original post by mel0n)
if you say so

too predictable your response

[mel0n]

(Original post by boromir9111)
too predictable your response

....Erm?

[Tpos]

(Original post by mel0n)
We'll agree to disagree then to an extent A report that isn't proven authentic is considered batil afaik. I agree with you to an extent, though the first time that story was ever reported was by someone from the Ottoman in around 968AH, and whether the story itself is important regardless of the isnad is dependent on whether everyone agrees on the 'replies' that 'Abu Hanifa' gave. But fair enough

Also out of interest how does that quote show the right manners etc? I'm not trying to have a dig at you lol, I promise, I'm just actually wondering.

it isn't I was just giving examples of stuff that can't be argued about lol
To use this story as an example - there is nothing wrong with any of the answers given to the Qs, so to take from it shouldn't be an issue therefore it doesn't matter if it is true or not, or who exactly said it - hence what I mean about the message being more important.

What does batil mean?

[Butterfly1991]

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, "Verily the inhabitants of the Fire cry, so much so that if ships were sailed into their tears, they would float, and verily they would cry blood (instead of tears)." (al-Haakim, Ibn Maajah, Kitaab az-Zuhd, no. 4323)

You should aid yourself through fear: living with the fear of an eternal abode in the Hellfire and of never coming out of it, from everlasting hunger and continuous thirst, with fear of crying blood continually, so much so that if a ship were to be sent into it, it would float. When you are truly afraid of this, only then will you take the necessary steps to stay out of this danger that you have been warned about. In addition to changing your beliefs and lifestyle, also make the supplication of Yusuf (alaihis salaam): "Cause me to die as a Muslim and join me with the righteous." [Quran 12:101] Don't just sit around while the sweetness of Faith is missing or weak.

[mel0n]

(Original post by Tpos)
it isn't I was just giving examples of stuff that can't be argued about lol
To use this story as an example - there is nothing wrong with any of the answers given to the Qs, so to take from it shouldn't be an issue therefore it doesn't matter if it is true or not, or who exactly said it - hence what I mean about the message being more important.

What does batil mean?

This is where I said we'll agree to disagree, lol

and it means 'falsehood', but that's probably quite a strict opinion which I agree with. Though saying that Imam Bukhari has narrated some hadiths in his book on Adab (I can't remember the full name) that are not wholly authentic but are included because of the meaning of them and because it's just manners (although they're hadiths and not just stories)... so I understand exactly what you mean

[Tpos]

(Original post by mel0n)
This is where I said we'll agree to disagree, lol

and it means 'falsehood', but that's probably quite a strict opinion which I agree with. Though saying that Imam Bukhari has narrated some hadiths in his book on Adab (I can't remember the full name) that are not wholly authentic but are included because of the meaning of them and because it's just manners (although they're hadiths and not just stories)... so I understand exactly what you mean

why do you disagree? What's wrong with the answers? (Just tryna understand, not gna force you to accept my opinion lol)

Haven't heard of the last bit before...I'm wary of believing it tbh no offence to you! ...but I'm glad you understand my point lol

[soyasauce]

[mel0n]

(Original post by Tpos)
why do you disagree? What's wrong with the answers? (Just tryna understand, not gna force you to accept my opinion lol)

Haven't heard of the last bit before...I'm wary of believing it tbh no offence to you! ...but I'm glad you understand my point lol

I don't know if there's any point going into it. I'm far from knowledgeable and I just read what I can and base my opinion on what is the most reliable to me. The main thing that makes that quote, imo, unreliable is the second point suggesting that Allah is everywhere: ''...then how can we work out the direction of the face of the Creator, as He is limitless)''. Also wouldn't the answer to the third simply be that Allah does what He wills ? I read that Ibn Jawzi said this.

[mel0n]

(Original post by In2deep)
x

How is anyone meant to reply to anything you write on walls?!

[In2deep]

(Original post by mel0n)
How is anyone meant to reply to anything you write on walls?!

my wall or PM

[mel0n]

(Original post by In2deep)
my wall or PM

No wall is visible

[In2deep]

(Original post by mel0n)
No wall is visible

Visitor messages are enabled, don't know what's up. I actually have a one from 4 days ago

Also, you can PM me for sure.

[mel0n]

(Original post by In2deep)
Visitor messages are enabled, don't know what's up. I actually have a one from 4 days ago

Also, you can PM me for sure.

I will if I find no way to wall to wall you. I cba PMing, long ting.

[someperson]

'The world is a vehicle for you. If you drive it, it will deliver you to your destination. If it drives you, you will be destroyed.'

- Al-Hasan Al-Basri

[mel0n]

Sorry this is so vastly off topic to the other thread that I moved it.

(Original post by rupertj)
'Mainstream' refers to those who follow Hanafi, Shafi'i and Maliki fiqh, and who aren't followers of this movement which extends from the Hanbali school. I'm talking in terms of sheer numbers here. You may not have enjoyed my use of the word 'mainstream', but the fact is that those three schools of thought haved dominated scholarship in terms of numbers of Muftis, quantity of Universities and religious schools and so on. Al Azhar University is traditionally recognised (obviously not by some, and you may disagree) as the primary voice of Sunni Islam (it certainly doesn't agree with many things taught in Saudi universities) , and outside Saudi Arabia, most schools follow Hanafi, Shafi'i or Maliki madhhabs.

So you would reject anything from the Hanbali school on the basis that it is the same as this 'movement', as I don't see where the distinction between Hanbalis and this 'movement' is drawn. The spread of madhabs and how big it is, or how many people follow it, doesn't mean that the adherents to it are somehow more 'rightful' than those of another. I'm not even Hanbali but my point here is that you can't say 'so and so is right because of the madhab being bigger'. Though the reason those three schools have probably dominated in terms of scholarship IS because they're bigger, rather than anything else. Yet the reason they're bigger has more to do with their spread in history rather than them being 'right'. Also, in my opinion, pointing out the madhabs is unimportant as the madhab an individual follows is not what is considered the important thing. Differences of opinion in fiqh are totally acceptable.

As a traditional kind of Muslim, for want of a better term, I place my trust in the superior knowledge of scholars, and that's why I'm not explicitly talking about the details of Tawassul etcetera, and I especially wouldn't do that on TSR even if I wished to. So I'll refer you to an article which explains a bit about the traditional methodology of Islamic scholarship and the importance of assimilating previous scholarship with serious respect for it:

This one
This is a great read, whatever your viewpoint, even if the text doesn't come out great everywhere

Not quite sure what your intention of posting these two particular articles was. I know what a salafi is. I don't really like the term but then I also understand why the term is used today. Though a lot don't call themselves salafis, because there's no need to. I like how you slipped the 'I place my trust in the superior knowledge of scholars' in - seeing as you're very opposed to 'salafis' do you think that they don't?

Once again, forgive me if you took this to be harsh on your views;

You're not being

it wasn't intended (and didn't start out) that way. I only object to harsh criticism of my own views, or obvious, massive deviance (like the people who circumambulate graves). You have to understand that Aqidah schools that may be grouped with Sufism are the prominent systems taught and learnt in the vast majority of Islamic Universities in the Muslim world, as well as, in fact, the UK, where something like 90% of existing mosques were set up by the Deobandi subschool of the Hanafi madhhab.

I take it you're referring to the Ashari school as being the 'dominant' school? The aqidah in these schools hasn't always been dominant and history speaks a lot about something more so than the present, so to say that 'today this is taught so and so' doesn't link back to the truth of the matter. They were cursed in the Sunni world by Sunni scholars as well as the Mutazila, while Caliph al-Qadir, as far as I know, banned them from preaching their views and this creed was signed by ***aha of all four schools. But saying this I have no problem with Deobandis so I'm sorry if I made it sound that way!

The aqidah of the four imams of Sunni Islam was the same, I hope you agree - and if we're pretty certain that Imam Ahmad's was contrary to what you claim is taught in 95% of schools today, then by entailment I hope you agree that the other three imams, who were students/teachers of each other, was the same. You could equally say "today 95% of Muslims think X" and so "X must be right" even if X is bad. You can't always equate majority to truth. On one hand you sound quite open minded but on the other you seem like a 'I'm not even gonna read it or accept it cos it has come from Saudi' type, even if it hasn't necessarily come from there.

Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Bosnia, Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Central Asia, West Africa, Jordan, Malaysia and Yemen (as well as others) are all dominated by Islamic universities and Islamic jurists following a set of theological beliefs that are acknowledged to contradict the writings of Ibn Abdul Wahhab in the same respects, and only Saudi Arabia's universities are in clear conformance with them.

Out of genuine interest, some examples?

So that's what I meant by mainstream. Clearly the Salafi movement (and you can't 'lol' at that because you have to call it something, and 'Wahhabi' would be insulting and blasphemous at the same time) is gaining in numbers but it would be grossly inaccurate, statistically speaking, to suggest that it represents mainstream theology. Most Muslims believe in at least a bit of that stuff which the movement rejects are heretical, since their Imams profess it.Just my two cents.

What statistics though? Seriously, substantial numbers are always better than claims. Though I'm glad we agree that it would be blasphemous to use the other term. Also don't understand your last sentence. I'm not trying to prove you wrong in anything, as I'm far from knowledgeable enough to do that and I wouldn't even bother attempting, but I think it's alright to discuss and I guess at least I get to learn too!