[rupertj]

(Original post by mel0n)
Sorry this is so vastly off topic to the other thread that I moved it.

Firstly forgive me if the following is so convoluted and incomprehensible that it induces nausea, but it's 4:27am and I am still awake for some reason. I am likely not to reply to you if not now, as I'm quite forgetful with things like TSR. Apologies in advance for the stupid length. Don't expect to be able to follow it, my eyes are shutting...

So you would reject anything from the Hanbali school on the basis that it is the same as this 'movement', as I don't see where the distinction between Hanbalis and this 'movement' is drawn. The spread of madhabs and how big it is, or how many people follow it, doesn't mean that the adherents to it are somehow more 'rightful' than those of the Hanbali school. I'm not even Hanbali but my point here is that you can't say 'so and so is right because of the madhab'. Though the reason those three schools have probably dominated in terms of scholarship IS because they're bigger, rather than anything else.

Not quite sure what your intention of posting these two particular articles was. I know what a salafi is. I don't really like the term but then I also understand why the term is used today. Though a lot don't call themselves salafis, because there's no need to. I like how you slipped the 'I place my trust in the superior knowledge of scholars' in - seeing as you're very opposed to 'salafis' do you think that they don't?

You're not being

I take it you're referring to the Ashari school as being the 'dominant' school? The aqidah in these schools hasn't always been dominant and history speaks a lot about something more so than the present, so to say that 'today this is taught so and so' doesn't link back to the truth of the matter. They were cursed in the Sunni world by Sunni scholars as well as the Mutazila, while Caliph al-Qadir, as far as I know, banned them from preaching their views and this creed was signed by ***aha of all four schools. But saying this I have no problem with Deobandis so I'm sorry if I made it sound that way!

The aqidah of the four imams of Sunni Islam was the same, I hope you agree - and if we're pretty certain that Imam Ahmad's was contrary to what you claim is taught in 95% of schools today, then by entailment I hope you agree that the other three imams, who were students/teachers of each other, was the same. You could equally say "today 95% of Muslims think X" and so "X must be right" even if X is bad. You can't always equate majority to truth. On one hand you sound quite open minded but on the other you seem like a 'I'm not even gonna read it or accept it cos it has come from Saudi' type, even if it hasn't necessarily come from there.

Out of genuine interest, some examples?

What statistics though? Seriously, substantial numbers are always better than claims. Though I'm glad we agree that it would be blasphemous to use the other term. Also don't understand your last sentence. I'm not trying to prove you wrong in anything, as I'm far from knowledgeable enough to do that and I wouldn't even bother attempting, but I think it's alright to discuss and I guess at least I get to learn too!

No, I certainly wouldn't remove anything from the Hanbali school, but from my experience it's rare to find a Salafi who isn't a Hanbali. (Unless they're Western converts, or they're from younger generations, in which case a much greater number are Salafi than is common for Muslim-since-birth non-Hanbalis.). I meant to use it in the statistical sense, just to justify my use of the word 'mainstream'. I thought you were a Salafi (I still don't know what you are, if anything particular), and as is often the case with Salafis, they seem to truly believe that percentage wise, they dominate the Ummah. Rather than working out how many Hanbali's are Salafis and how many are such and such a thing etc. etc., I was trying to guestimate. Obviously I have massive respect for Imam Ahmad (ra), considering my position in all of this as being negligible. It was never my aim, with this passage, to claim that the numbers proved that such and such a Madhhab is superior. Indeed, I would agree with you that all four Madhhabs are theologically and doctrinally concurrent.

Those articles, especially the first, though entitled a little patronisingly, are really good I think (unless you've grown up learning more about Islamic scholarship, methodology and so on than I have, but really I've had to discover a lot of this myself with some minor parental input). The 'I place my trust...' comment was not meant to be sneaky! I know nothing about you, and there are definitely a lot of people who don't subscribe to this way of thinking. Even a lot of Salafis don't. Take the comparative religionist, Zakir Naik, whom a lot of relatively uninformed Salafis (the ones who get all their info from television, and don't know too much about schools of thought and so on, particularly in the Hindustani community) subscribe to. He's self-taught, and is even rejected by most Salafis for seemingly delving into all kinds of theologies at times. (I cannot confirm this as I avoid watching his videos on anything but comparative religion.) Furthermore, seeing as we're on a students' website, I couldn't expect you to be necessarily well-versed in these matters - a lot of near and distant relatives of mine, even educated ones in their 30s and stuff, have no clue.

This is true, about Aqidah, but as I say, I posted it to justify the notion that Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamah is 'mainstream'. You only have to Google-search a country on various Islamic websites to discover which sects, Aqidah's, Madhhabs etc. are dominant, and you can check out famous scholars of their and stuff. Looking into Turkey, Syria, Egypt, India-Pakistan-Bangladesh and Indonesia, which together make up about 70% of the world's Muslims, I've discovered that Sufi influences are pretty embedded within the structure, since Sufis played a very important role in missionary work in these places in centuries gone by, and universities are tied together in all kinds of ways. Admittedly my research into 'Salafi Aqidah' has been thin but what stood out to me was that Muhammad Abdur who played a significant role in the intellectual part of the movement's spreading (rather than the political and military significance of the Saud family), was apparently a Mu'tazilite. I may be assuming a lot from that, so correct me if I'm wrong in supposing that at the esoteric level of theology, one which has few practical implications for us non-scholars, Salafis believe in this Aqidah. This would certainly suggest to me that it's not 'mainstream' at this point in time.

I'm not one of those types who reject all Saudi work; indeed, I consider the 'Noble Qur'an' translation by Dr Muhammad Mohsen Khan to be great. (although I really would prefer the parentheses to be footnoted instead... - ''...tanks, planes, missiles...'') I double check the trustworthiness of everything I read, but I avoid reading about certain topics if it is Salafi stuff. A Seerah book, for example, is always fine!

Regarding examples of contradictory beliefs: Egypt - one of the richest sources of scholarship for the Islamic world today. Al Azhar is the obvious example of a pretty open university that doesn't shudder at the mention of 'Sufi'. (c.f. famous Salafi lecturer Bilal Philips, sorry for my over-reliance on television personalities, but this guy's a genuine scholar) I probably don't need to tell you about Egypt and its scholars? Shaykhs Muhammad Metwali al Sharawi, Muhammad al-Ghazali (d. 1996), Yusuf al-Qaradawi and others I don't know of.

Turkey - Ottoman influences, and therefore Hanafi Sufi-dominated.

India, Pakistan and Bangladesh - Deobandi School, Barelwi School, both subsets of the Hanafi school, both of which ascribe Sufi tenets.

etc.etc.etc.

All of these schools of thought, which are essentially the same, uphold the belief that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) is alive in spirit, in some active capacity of some sort. From this tenet (based on scholarship of Qur'an and Hadith and narrations of the Four Imams) stems much of the spiritualism and the Sufi position on Tawassul. Seeking intercession by the nobility of the Prophet (saw) in direct Du'a to Allah (swt) (i.e. ''On account of your Love for him (saw) and your Mercy to him...'') is an essential part of Sufi practices. Incessant Tasbeeh of Durood is all a part of this.

Ibn Abdul Wahhab on this matter: "Those who perform tawassul (asking Allah by the prophets, for example) are similar to those blasphemers mentioned in Surat az-Zumar, Ayah 3, who claim they do not worship the idols except to achieve a higher status from Allah. The blasphemers did not believe the idols create anything; they believed Allah is the Creator."

This is pretty damning, and considering that this is such an essential part of the belief systems of these other schools...

The first time I really knew anything about Medina University, and how it wasn't automatically the greatest university just because it's situated in Medina, was in a conversation with a cousin (once removed) who is a lot older (40ish) and who had left a very poor living in rural India for a scholarship to the university, aged 18 or something. He is know a professor at an Islamic university in India, and speaks of the extreme restriction of opinion there (especially regarding what I mention above). He himself was certainly no major Sufi at the time, and yet he doesn't like what he saw. It is only after he had some spiritual experiences of his own that he really starting leaning towards the (true) Sufi end. Indeed, a lot of non-Salafis study there because of its excellent reputation (particularly in teaching Arabic to a very high level) but the faculty are rather hardline. I'm trying to find the article from a UK paper about the expulsion of a certain Professor there after he declared something that was anti-establishment and pro-Sufism, but I'm failing. Maybe I'll edit this if and when I find it. For what it's worth, Yahoo answers seems to agree with me

The last sentence was an American phrase 'My two cents' is kind of like 'that's my humble opinion'. Sorry for the essay. Peace out.

[In2deep]

(Original post by rupertj)
x

Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of "Salafi"?

[soyasauce]

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their Furuj (private parts),and disclose not their adornments except only that which is apparent, and that they should draw their head covers over their Juyub (bosoms), and that they disclose not their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or what their hands posses, or such of male attendants who have no sexual desire or young children who have not attained the knowledge of women's private parts. And that they should not stamp their feet lest what they hide of their ornaments be known. And turn you to all together, O believers that you may be successful." (24:31)

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters, and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies, that is more proper that they may be distinguished and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful." (33:59)

"And when you ask them for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and their hearts." (33:53)

[mel0n]

(Original post by rupertj)
I thought you were a Salafi (I still don't know what you are, if anything particular), and as is often the case with Salafis, they seem to truly believe that percentage wise, they dominate the Ummah. Rather than working out how many Hanbali's are Salafis and how many are such and such a thing etc. etc., I was trying to guestimate.

So tell me how do you differentiate between a non-salafi Hanbali, and a salafi Hanbali?

This is true, about Aqidah, but as I say, I posted it to justify the notion that Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamah is 'mainstream'. You only have to Google-search a country on various Islamic websites to discover which sects, Aqidah's, Madhhabs etc. are dominant, and you can check out famous scholars of their and stuff. Looking into Turkey, Syria, Egypt, India-Pakistan-Bangladesh and Indonesia, which together make up about 70% of the world's Muslims, I've discovered that Sufi influences are pretty embedded within the structure, since Sufis played a very important role in missionary work in these places in centuries gone by, and universities are tied together in all kinds of ways.

I still don't know what you're getting it. What was the Ahle-Sunnah wal Jamah defined as before Asharism came about, seeing as Asharis seem to be what make up the ahle-sunnah in your opinion? As I already said, the dominance of a certain aqidah (though this dominance will probably be in schools alone and not in the whole ummah, tbf) says nothing about the truth, does it?

Admittedly my research into 'Salafi Aqidah' has been thin but what stood out to me was that Muhammad Abdur who played a significant role in the intellectual part of the movement's spreading (rather than the political and military significance of the Saud family), was apparently a Mu'tazilite. I may be assuming a lot from that, so correct me if I'm wrong in supposing that at the esoteric level of theology, one which has few practical implications for us non-scholars, Salafis believe in this Aqidah. This would certainly suggest to me that it's not 'mainstream' at this point in time.

...I would say he was quite far from a Mu'tazilite Lol! What have you been reading?

All of these schools of thought, which are essentially the same, uphold the belief that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) is alive in spirit, in some active capacity of some sort. From this tenet (based on scholarship of Qur'an and Hadith and narrations of the Four Imams) stems much of the spiritualism and the Sufi position on Tawassul. Seeking intercession by the nobility of the Prophet (saw) in direct Du'a to Allah (swt) (i.e. ''On account of your Love for him (saw) and your Mercy to him...'') is an essential part of Sufi practices.

The belief that A) the Prophet is alive, doesn't entail belief B) you can pray to Allah and seek intercession. If you believe both then fair enough but I'm jus' sayin one doesn't necessary have the other as a consequence. As far as I am aware, someone correct me if I'm wrong, salafis don't have a problem with tawassul when done correctly.

To break it down - 1) It's shirk to call on other than Allah and ask for something, believing that the one you're asking will answer. 2) To call on other than Allah asking for something even though you believe only Allah will answer, is shirk. 3) To call upon other than Allah, asking them directly to intercede for us is shirk as far as I know. 4) To call directly on the prophet and ask him to fulfill our du'a or ask him to ask Allah for something for us is shirk (we should just ask ourselves!) and 5) To call on Allah alone and ask him by his prophet has a difference of opinion - and I assume this is the type of tawassul you are referring to when you say 'on account of your Love for him and Mercy for him'

I'm trying to show you that salafis don't disregard tawassul in the way that you've made out.

Can you show me narrations from the four imams on such matters? I'm not favouring them over Qur'an and Hadith but it'd be interesting to see what the four imams said, seeing as they were themselves interpreting hadith and qur'an a lot (some more than others etc). Because, as far as I'm aware, they believed quite the contrary.

Ibn Abdul Wahhab on this matter: "Those who perform tawassul (asking Allah by the prophets, for example) are similar to those blasphemers mentioned in Surat az-Zumar, Ayah 3, who claim they do not worship the idols except to achieve a higher status from Allah. The blasphemers did not believe the idols create anything; they believed Allah is the Creator."

This is pretty damning, and considering that this is such an essential part of the belief systems of these other schools...

You're not differentiating between different types of tawassul. Is that from his Kitab at-Tawheed or a different book?

The last sentence was an American phrase 'My two cents' is kind of like 'that's my humble opinion'. Sorry for the essay. Peace out.

Noooo not that The one before it

[soyasauce]

[mel0n]

(Original post by soyasauce)

I like this! I tried liking but it won't let me

[soyasauce]

(Original post by mel0n)
I like this! I tried liking but it won't let me

LOL i love the video watched it like 8 times

haha dont worry

[mel0n]

And Shaytan will say when the matter has been decided: "Verily, Allah promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, and you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me (Shaytan) as a partner with Allah (by obeying me in the life of the world). Verily, there is a painful torment for the wrongdoers.'')

[Surat Ibraaheem : 22]

[mel0n]

Bundled these together because they're all regarding the same topic


- Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:

"When Allah created Paradise and Hellfire, He sent Gabriel to Paradise, saying, ‘look at it and at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.’ So Gabriel went to it and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants. Then Gabriel returned it Allah and said, ‘By Your glory, no one hears of it without entering it.’ So Allah ordered that it be encompassed by forms of hardship, and He said, ‘Return to it and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants! So, Gabriel returned to it and found that it was encompassed by forms of hardship. Then he returned to Allah and said, ‘By Your glory, I fear that no one will enter it, Allah said, ‘Go to Hellfire and look at it and at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.’ Gabriel found that it was in layers, one above the other. Then Gabriel returned to Allah and said, ‘By Your glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ So Allah ordered that it be encompassed by lusts. Then He said, ‘Return to it and Gabriel returned to it and said, ‘By Your glory, I am frightened that no one will escape from entering it.’

[at-Tirmidhi, abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i]

- Abu Hurairah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that the Messenger of Allah (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said that Allah (subhanahu wa Ta'ala) said:
“I have prepared for My righteous servants what no eye has seen and no ear has heard, nor has it occurred to the human heart. Thus, recite if you wish, ‘And no soul knows what joy has been kept hidden for them.”’
[Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim, at-Tirmidhi, and ibn Majah, Surah Al Sajdah, 32: 17]

- Sahl bin Sa’d (radiAllahu anhu) narrated Allah’s Apostle (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said: “A place in Paradise equal to the size of a lash is better than the whole world and whatever is in it.”
[Sahih al-Bukhari]

- Anas bin Malik (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah’s Messenger (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) said:
“In Paradise there is a street to which they (the inhabitants of Paradise) will come every Friday. The north wind will blow and will scatter fragrance on their faces and on their clothes. This will add to their beauty and loveliness. Then they will go back to their family after having an added luster to their beauty and loveliness, and their family will say to them, ‘By Allah, you have been increased in beauty and loveliness after leaving us.’ They (the ones who have been scattered with fragrance) will say, ‘By Allah, you have also increased in beauty and loveliness after us.”
[Muslim]

- “But after them (i.e. prophets and righteous believers) there followed a posterity who neglected prayer and followed after lusts. Soon, then, will they face destruction, except those who repent, believe and work righteousness. These will enter the Garden and will not be wronged in the least - gardens of eternity, those which (Allah), Most Merciful, has promised to His servants in the Unseen. His promise must come to pass. They will not hear therein any vain discourse, but only salutation of peace. They will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening. Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance for those of Our servants who are God fearing.”
[Maryam, 19: 59-63]

[soyasauce]

i owe yu rep ^

[minnie-x]

Imam Ali (as) is quoted to have said:

Once we were sitting with Prophet Muhammad (saw) when he (saw) asked: "What is the best thing for a woman?" No one could answer his question. I approached Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) and discussed the issue with her and she immediately claimed to know the answer. According to her, the answer was, "The best thing for a woman is that she is protected from the sight of strangers such that neither does she have to see them nor do they get to see her."

I returned to Prophet Muhammad (saw) and gave him the answer. He (saw) asked at once, "Who taught you this answer?" I told him that the answer had come from Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa). Prophet Muhammad (saw) was delighted and said: "Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) is my flesh and blood."

Numerous Traditions (Ahadith) have been related regarding the personality, dignity and responsibility of women. One Prophetic Tradition relates that once Prophet Muhammad (saw) asked one of his companions, "When are women closest to Allah (SWT)?" Again no one could answer this question. Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) finally answered, saying: "When they are in their home." According to exegetes, in all probability, this answer refers to a verse from the Noble Qur'an that says:

"And stay in your home and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorant of yore..." (Noble Qur'an, 33:33)

It needs to be emphasized here that although in the Noble Qur'an, this verse is addressed directly to Prophet Muhammad's (saw) wives, but it is also applicable to all Muslim women. In the same Chapter "Al-Ahzab", Allah (SWT) says:

"O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, the Merciful." (Noble Qur'an, 33:59)

The above verse has discussed the philosophy of Hijab (Islamic dress code) for women, as a kind of protection for them from being followed, teased, and disrespected from evil and lustful eyes.

One day Prophet Muhammad (saw) was sitting in the house of his daughter Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) when they heard a knock on the door. The housemaid comes to Prophet Muhammad (saw) and says: "Oh! Prophet of Allah (saw) your companion Abdullah ibn Umme Maqdoom (who was blind) has come to visit you."

Prophet Muhammad (saw) immediately told the housemaid to let him in. In the mean time his daughter Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa), chief of the women of the world and head of the women in Paradise, gets up to go to her room.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) questions her "Oh! My daughter Fatima, where are you going?"

Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) replies: "Since your companion (Sahabi) is coming to see you I am going to my room to observe my Hijab from him."

Prophet Muhammad (saw) replies: "But my daughter Fatima the companion of mine is blind and cannot see you."

Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) replies: "My father, he cannot see me but I can see him thus I must go inside."

This is not to say that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was not aware of the matter but this question was posed to inform the women, whose chief is Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa), of the importance of Hijab. And that it is not sufficient to think that we are capable of controlling our desires and will not think or look badly at someone. Who can say that Nauz Billah (God Forbid) Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) could not have had such a control on herself and yet she followed the Shariah (Islamic Law) very strictly.

Islam considers the protection of the dignity and character of women for their happiness and sincerity. However, here we need to clarify that Islam does not advocate that women should never be allowed to see the light of the day. In fact, when we study the life of Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa), we find that she was very active in her personal and social life. At the same time, she was so careful in safeguarding her dignity and self-respect that in spite of her activities, she never intermingled with any strangers.

Not only has the presence of women not been prohibited in the areas of culture, politics, defense, etc. rather wherever necessary they are obliged to participate actively in these areas. For example, whenever the society requires the services of female doctors, nurses, teachers etc., the women in that society are obliged (wajib) to obtain the necessary skills and qualifications.

The sermons of Lady Fatimah Zahra (sa) in the Prophet's Mosque (Medina), her serving alongside Imam Ali (as) in the Holy Wars (Jihad) and during their migration from Makkah to Medina and also the roles played by her great daughter Hazrat Zainab (sa) in the Battle of Karbala, followed by her famous speeches in Kufa and Sham - all these reflect on the active and powerful roles played by these great Islamic female personalities.

Fatima Al-Zahra's (sa) legacy to all the Muslim women of her Ummah (Community/Nation) is purity of faith and character. Her vision for all Muslim women for all times to come is that they keep themselves chaste and pure like angels, as per Islamic values and ethics. One Prophetic Tradition (Hadith) says: "The alms (Zakat) of the beauty of a woman are her dignity and chastity."

Thus, if a woman does not guard or protect her beauty and exhibits herself to strangers, neither does she attain salvation, nor does her husband experience peace of mind and spirit.

It is to be remembered here that Islam regards women like a beautiful and delicate flower that needs to be protected from hardships and dangers. Moreover because only if a woman is well-protected and well-secure, can she offer happiness and peace to her family and home and in this way only would the society be safe, secure and progressive.

[mel0n]

Lmao someone's on a negging spree.

[Vampire-Love4ever]

Muslims can earn good deeds after death with charity, knowledge, and offspring

Abu Huraira (RA) reported: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “When the human being dies, his deeds come to an end except for three: ongoing charity, beneficial knowledge, or a righteous child who prays for him.”

[Sahih Muslim, Book 013, Number 4005]

[Vampire-Love4ever]

(Original post by mel0n)
Lmao someone's on a negging spree.

I noticed. Its weird. =/

[joytosee]

(Original post by mel0n)

again really this needs to stop bro/sis

[In2deep]

(Original post by mel0n)
Lmao someone's on a negging spree.

Don't worry, it's just T-Ros (as usual).

[Vampire-Love4ever]

[Vampire-Love4ever]

[Vampire-Love4ever]

[Summer_fruits]

"Your souls are precious and only equal to the price of paradise; therefore sell them only at the price"

- Ali ibn Talib R.A