The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)lol do you think the women in saudi are happy?? they werent even able to vote just until very recently(Original post by mel0n)
Why would anyone need an alternative unless they're not happy with the already established and, for the most part, agreed upon "rulings" and issues?
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)i dont see how this is relevant? we get a lot of iranian and saudi tourists in Turkey and we know what they are like(Original post by In2deep)
Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia or Iran btw? -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)I hope you are not seriously measuring happiness with the ability to vote.(Original post by ibs137)
lol do you think the women in saudi are happy?? they werent even able to vote just until very recently
I just think forming an opinion on a few million people you've never met is not very smart and if you truly believe that "Islam is best practiced in Turkey" then you need to travel more.(Original post by ibs137)
i dont see how this is relevant? we get a lot of iranian and saudi tourists in Turkey and we know what they are like
As for your apparent advocacy of Democracy and you're apparent dislike of an Islamic Political System, know that it is political system grounded in Sharia is a fundamental part of Islam, one that is unquestionable. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Do you accept, at all, that women in Saudi are oppressed?(Original post by In2deep)
I hope you are not seriously measuring happiness with the ability to vote.
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)omg.. if you are saying that the women in saudi get treated equally and are as happy as women in other countries, i will not even take you seriously(Original post by In2deep)
I hope you are not seriously measuring happiness with the ability to vote.
well tbh you've never been to Turkey so what do you know?? it is you who needs to travelI just think forming an opinion on a few million people you've never met is not very smart and if you truly believe that "Islam is best practiced in Turkey" then you need to travel more.
As for your apparent advocacy of Democracy and you're apparent dislike of an Islamic Political System, know that it is political system grounded in Sharia is a fundamental part of Islam, one that is unquestionable. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Check my posts Tpos, I speak out against the Saudi government when it is needed, I just oppose the whole mentality behind attacking Saudi Arabia as the only "Islamic country" with the logic:(Original post by Tpos)
Do you accept, at all, that women in Saudi are oppressed?
Women are oppressed in the KSA ---> KSA applies Islamic Law ----> Therefore Islamic Law is barbarous and uncivilised.
There is a lot of oppression going on in the ME and particularly the KSA, may Allaah guide them and us inshallaah.
Edit: This isn't aimed at brother ibs137, I'm just generally speaking here.Last edited by In2deep; 16-01-2012 at 19:28. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)no we are not concluding that "Islamic Law is barbarous and uncivilised."(Original post by In2deep)
Check my posts Tpos, I speak out against the Saudi government when it is needed, I just oppose the whole mentality behind attacking Saudi Arabia as the only "Islamic country" with the logic:
Women are oppressed in the KSA ---> KSA applies Islamic Law ----> Therefore Islamic Law is barbarous and uncivilised.
There is a lot of oppression going on in the ME and particularly the KSA, may Allaah guide them and us inshallaah.
Edit: This isn't aimed at brother ibs137, I'm just generally speaking here.
obviously islamic way the best and right way but it's not implemented correctly anywhere.. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)That isn't what I asked, nor is it what I meant. You turned what I asked generally about why someone would need an alternative into an issue concerning quite a specific matter(Original post by ibs137)
lol do you think the women in saudi are happy?? they werent even able to vote just until very recently
a matter that isn't the only "issue" raised in the video you posted. No need to get defensive as I was genuinely just wondering, as I always wonder why people feel the need to have a modernized version of Islam and what makes them choose such alternatives.
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)because the "traditional" way that is implemented clearly isnt working(Original post by mel0n)
That isn't what I asked, nor is it what I meant. You turned what I asked generally about why someone would need an alternative into an issue concerning quite a specific matter a matter that isn't the only "issue" raised in the video you posted. No need to get defensive as I was genuinely just wondering, as I always wonder why people feel the need to have a modernized version of Islam and what makes them choose such alternatives.
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)I don't think people should say it applies Islamic law, as if it did it wouldn't oppress women. However, I think it's used as an example, because it is one of the countries who claims to use the shariah law, yet it misuses it. Also well...it's...Saudi. It's like it should be a role model, it'd where Islam first started etc etc.(Original post by In2deep)
Check my posts Tpos, I speak out against the Saudi government when it is needed, I just oppose the whole mentality behind attacking Saudi Arabia as the only "Islamic country" with the logic:
Women are oppressed in the KSA ---> KSA applies Islamic Law ----> Therefore Islamic Law is barbarous and uncivilised.
There is a lot of oppression going on in the ME and particularly the KSA, may Allaah guide them and us inshallaah.
Edit: This isn't aimed at brother ibs137, I'm just generally speaking here.Last edited by Tpos; 16-01-2012 at 19:47. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Exactly. Having said that though, the KSA does have some major deficiencies but they are the closest and that counts for something. Yes, we could look at the negatives all day but a balanced view should also look at the positives.(Original post by ibs137)
no we are not concluding that "Islamic Law is barbarous and uncivilised."
obviously islamic way the best and right way but it's not implemented correctly anywhere..
It is the home of the two holiest places in Islam, prayer is enforced, Islam is taught at a national level from a very young age, its citizens pay Zakah, it spends a vast amount of money spreading Islam and building Mosques worldwide, it gives a lot of sadaqah to other Muslim countries in Asia and Africa and even to non-Muslims. Alcohol is forbidden and zinah is prohibited, it is a home to some of the best Islamic universities worldwide, it provides benefits to its people and takes care of its poor, gambling is forbidden and I could go on..
Unfortunately, the list of cons could be just as long but I know of no other country that does the above as well without the same amount of cons if not more. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Should we blame ourselves as implementers or should we blame the system?(Original post by ibs137)
because the "traditional" way that is implemented clearly isnt working
Very true, especially your last point, we as Muslims except more from a country that claims to implement Islamic Law, its shortcomings are clear for everyone to see especially in oppression and corruption.(Original post by Tpos)
I don't think people should say it applies Islamic law, as if it did it wouldn't oppress women. However I think it's used as an example, because it is one of the countries who claims to use the shariah law, yet it misuses it. Also well...it's...Saudi. It's like it should be a role model, it'd where Islam first started etc etc.Last edited by In2deep; 16-01-2012 at 19:45. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)I'm subscribed to this thread after posting before, and this is an interesting discussion. I was under the impression that one of the fundamental principles in Islam was wealth distribution. When half your population live in rags, and over the sea Somalia starves, I'm not sure building golden thrones and buying German supercars is a particularly fair way of spending your money. You have been duped, hook line and sinker. Saudi (the damn country is named after the family) use Saudi as a massive cash cow - collaborating with anyone - the USA, China, Israel, the EU, Russia - to get as rich as they can. You sit at home content obsessing in minute detail your religion, whilst right in front of your eyes the guardians of the two mosques amass an epic personal fortune and spend it on themselves. Even when you go on your Hajj - your money is going into Saudi coffers so they can buy American & British weaponry to the tune of billions and billions and billions and billions (the last arms sale from the USA was $62 billion - to put it into context - the annual military budget for the UK is $50 billion) and so some Prince can spend his summer spending millions in Paris, London and Vegas and buying massive mansions in LA and Oxfordshire. Yeah, they may have funded Saddam against Iran, they may have massacred people in Bahrain, they might have tried to keep Mubaruk in power, and to this day are attempting to halt democracy in Egypt, they might operate apartheid regards Shias - but hey, they teach Islam in schools! Textbook example of being kept in line by religion, whilst they rob you blind and further their own economic interests!(Original post by In2deep)
Exactly. Having said that though, the KSA does have some major deficiencies but they are the closest and that counts for something. Yes, we could look at the negatives all day but a balanced view should also look at the positives.
It is the home of the two holiest places in Islam, prayer is enforced, Islam is taught at a national level from a very young age, its citizens pay Zakah, it spends a vast amount of money spreading Islam and building Mosques worldwide, it gives a lot of sadaqah to other Muslim countries in Asia and Africa and even to non-Muslims. Alcohol is forbidden and zinah is prohibited, it is a home to some of the best Islamic universities worldwide, it provides benefits to its people and takes care of its poor, gambling is forbidden and I could go on..
Unfortunately, the list of cons could be just as long but I know of no other country that does the above as well without the same amount of cons if not more. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Horrible reason. What do you mean by it's not "working"? Examples(Original post by ibs137)
because the "traditional" way that is implemented clearly isnt working? You can't "dislike" traditional Islam - authentic Islam - simply because of how it's implemented.
Last edited by mel0n; 16-01-2012 at 19:50. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)The fact that the entire planet from South Korea, to Sweden to Brazil look at the Islamic world as a textbook example of how not to run countries maybe? Fact of the matter, this concept of a Quranic state is never going to be rekindled; the only way it is enforceable is via repression. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)As I said "Unfortunately, the list of cons could be just as long.." and you only need to do a quick post search to see that I agree with all you say. I haven't been duped I just like to keep a balanced view, yes, the KSA is immensely corrupt and full of oppression but looking at the larger picture, name me a single Muslim-majority country which isn't and still holds to at least some Islamic values? It seems like your anti-Saudi stance has made you miss the obvious..(Original post by Ferdowsi)
I'm subscribed to this thread after posting before, and this is an interesting discussion. I was under the impression that one of the fundamental principles in Islam was wealth distribution. When half your population live in rags, and over the sea Somalia starves, I'm not sure building golden thrones and buying German supercars is a particularly fair way of spending your money. You have been duped, hook line and sinker. Saudi (the damn country is named after the family) use Saudi as a massive cash cow - collaborating with anyone - the USA, China, Israel, the EU, Russia - to get as rich as they can. You sit at home content obsessing in minute detail your religion, whilst right in front of your eyes the guardians of the two mosques amass an epic personal fortune and spend it on themselves. Even when you go on your Hajj - your money is going into Saudi coffers so they can buy American & British weaponry to the tune of billions and billions and billions and billions (the last arms sale from the USA was $62 billion - to put it into context - the annual military budget for the UK is $50 billion) and so some Prince can spend his summer spending millions in Paris, London and Vegas and buying massive mansions in LA and Oxfordshire. Yeah, they may have funded Saddam against Iran, they may have massacred people in Bahrain, they might have tried to keep Mubaruk in power, and to this day are attempting to halt democracy in Egypt, they might operate apartheid regards Shias - but hey, they teach Islam in schools! Textbook example of being kept in line by religion, whilst they rob you blind and further their own economic interests! -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)(Original post by rupertj)
I agree with what getoom says a couple of posts above this one. I have known people to have strange thoughts like these. The remedy is increase in Dhikr. Recite the Qur'an more than you do, keep faith that the Creator has Power of all things, and Insha'Allah your thoughts will be a lot more positive. It worked for them and Insha'Allah it'll work for you!
Allah gives us so many reminders - one of His Names is Al-Ghaffâr: The Forgiver. No further evidence is needed than this.Thank you for the advice brothers. Jazakom Allahu khayran.(Original post by getoom)
that is a trick Shaytaan is playing with you he is making you belive that you are beyond forgivness. You are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vibvgI3I5Ps
I haven't watched the video yet because my internet connection is apparently too slow for youtube today! But I will do as soon as it gets fixed isA, so thanks for the link. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)What? It has some token laws? Big deal?(Original post by In2deep)
As I said "Unfortunately, the list of cons could be just as long.." and you only need to do a quick post search to see that I agree with all you say. I haven't been duped I just like to keep a balanced view, yes, the KSA is immensely corrupt and full of oppression but looking at the larger picture, name me a single Muslim-majority country which isn't and still holds to at least some Islamic values? It seems like your anti-Saudi stance has made you miss the obvious..
The place is hellish - the oppression of women, slaves from the sub-continent building pointless towers, sex/drug/alcohol parties and Ferraris for some pampered Saudi prince, crawling with American diplomats and oil companies and weapons businessmen, the bullying of the Shiia, obsession with status..The custodian of the two mosques is in a huge military and economic alliance with the United States and is behind the scenes allied with Israel - and does nothing but halter and stifle progress in the Middle East. From the position of me it seems a pathetic position. All Saudi is, is a business enterprise for the House of Saud, which is propped up by the Americans who want a stable supply of oil. They spend time clubbing, gambling and wasting trillions of dollars of the nation's wealth. This is while millions of Saudi's are poor and hungry, lacking schools, water and electricity - when the oil runs out, they will flee and live with their mates in California and Florida. Saudi Arabia is an absolute crap hole. Most of the people who live in poverty can't even read or write, almost all career evolution is based upon nepotism and the base of the entire thing is going to run out in less than 100 years.
Honestly, says a lot about the state of the ME, when you find yourself making a list of pros for Saudi.
As I said, the masses are placated by religion, whilst the House of Saud make their trillions.Last edited by Ferdowsi; 16-01-2012 at 20:17. -
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Re: The I-SOC (Islamic Society) (IV)Well said, In2deep. I would like the post but I've met the quota. While KSA is nothing compared with the Rashidun Period or even some of the later ones for that matter, it at least maintains the Qur'an and Sunnah as its 'constitution' and inspiration. A country like Turkey which vows with militant fervour (excuse the weird juxtaposition of vocab) to uphold secularism can never compare.(Original post by In2deep)
As I said "Unfortunately, the list of cons could be just as long.." and you only need to do a quick post search to see that I agree with all you say. I haven't been duped I just like to keep a balanced view, yes, the KSA is immensely corrupt and full of oppression but looking at the larger picture, name me a single Muslim-majority country which isn't and still holds to at least some Islamic values? It seems like your anti-Saudi stance has made you miss the obvious..
How long ago was it that Turkey finally lifted the ban of the headscarf (informally), and when did they end the ban of the prayer-call in public places?Last edited by rupertj; 16-01-2012 at 20:18.
