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Catholic Church at it again

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    (Original post by Retrodiction)
    Surely the hypocratic oath doesn't forbid these atrocities? I thought it was just to get doctors to say that they'll do whatever it takes to save a patient's life.
    Involves stuff about harm as well, which gets ignored, mostly it's just a formality, not anything binding. It's more, you know, doctors are expected to behave in a certain way, here they haven't, and yet the OP is completely ignoring that because he has a chip on his shoulder.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Involves stuff about harm as well, which gets ignored, mostly it's just a formality, not anything binding. It's more, you know, doctors are expected to behave in a certain way, here they haven't, and yet the OP is completely ignoring that because he has a chip on his shoulder.
    I haven't ignored it at all.

    1. This is the religion forum
    2. In the minds of the doctors they were working in the best interests of the babies involved, I don't feel their motivations were any different than those of the clergy. That being in their minds improving the lives of these children by ensuring they were brought up in Catholic families, making a little money on the side, helping childless Catholic families and bolstering their numbers.

    I would be amazed if no one in the Church outside of the Spanish clergy knew what they were up to. But once again it seems like the Church's main priority was its self preservation and not the wellbeing of those involved.

    Again if being disgusted by the recent scandals and the way in which they have been handled by the Church means I have a chip on my shoulder then of course I do. More interestingly why don't you?
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    What do you expect from a religion that accepts bribes and monetary contributions as a form of repentance?
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    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    I haven't ignored it at all.

    1. This is the religion forum
    You have, as unless someone else has mentioned the others involved, you've only ever talked about the clergy. Yes, this is a subforum for religion, but given you're attempting to paint a very biased picture of what happened, I'm going to take issue with that.


    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    2. In the minds of the doctors they were working in the best interests of the babies involved, I don't feel their motivations were any different than those of the clergy. That being in their minds improving the lives of these children by ensuring they were brought up in Catholic families, making a little money on the side, helping childless Catholic families and bolstering their numbers.
    You know, I've reread the article and I have not seen a single mention of where the families who received the children were Roman Catholic and the ones who lost them weren't. This is your own, strange interpretation of the article based on your own prejudices. This is why I have such an issue. Read this from the article:

    ""The practice of removing children from parents deemed "undesirable" and placing them with "approved" families, began in the 1930s under the dictator General Francisco Franco.

    At that time, the motivation may have been ideological. But years later, it seemed to change - babies began to be taken from parents considered morally - or economically - deficient. It became a money-spinner, too"".

    Not one mention of the religion of the families involved. You've attempted to paint the families who lost their children as "heathen" and are still attempting to make it look like a religious issue, when it might not be. Given we have only one article on the issue, and I don't have time to do more research, I don't really feel we can be making all these judgements like you are doing.


    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    I would be amazed if no one in the Church outside of the Spanish clergy knew what they were up to. But once again it seems like the Church's main priority was its self preservation and not the wellbeing of those involved.
    Well, for all you know, the clergy involved might have been doing it because they felt the babies would've had a better life with the new families. As for the rest of the Church knowing, why should they? It might not even have been a Spanish clergy wide thing, so again, you can hardly make such a call.


    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    Again if being disgusted by the recent scandals and the way in which they have been handled by the Church means I have a chip on my shoulder then of course I do. More interestingly why don't you?
    Because I don't damn an entire institution based on its adherents. I damn an institution based on its own policies and then I damn the adherents based on what they do themselves. This is how I can still support democracy despite the atrocities that have been committed by fervent believers of it. It's also how I can objectively look at the Roman Catholic Church and find fault with it, in many areas, because of its policies and then judge Roman Catholics for what they do independently. If a Roman Catholic kills someone that's not because of Roman Catholicism, that's because of the person. Until you can learn to separate the adherents and the institution, you're not going to be able to approach the debate rationally.

    I am appalled by what the doctors, clergy and the others involved have done. It's shocking. I am not, however, going to damn all of doctordom, the institution of medicine or the Roman Catholic Church just because members of them are ****ing awful.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    You know, I've reread the article and I have not seen a single mention of where the families who received the children were Roman Catholic and the ones who lost them weren't. This is your own, strange interpretation of the article based on your own prejudices. This is why I have such an issue. Read this from the article:


    Not one mention of the religion of the families involved. You've attempted to paint the families who lost their children as "heathen" and are still attempting to make it look like a religious issue, when it might not be. Given we have only one article on the issue, and I don't have time to do more research, I don't really feel we can be making all these judgements like you are doing.


    Well, for all you know, the clergy involved might have been doing it because they felt the babies would've had a better life with the new families.

    Yes, it is possible there might not have been religious motives, but to believe that seems very wishful thinking. It almost certainly did.

    You can watch the documentary on iplayer btw.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Stolen_Babies/


    (Original post by Hylean)
    As for the rest of the Church knowing, why should they? It might not even have been a Spanish clergy wide thing, so again, you can hardly make such a call.
    Again yes they might not have known, but again seems wishful thinking given past examples.


    (Original post by Hylean)
    Because I don't damn an entire institution based on its adherents. I damn an institution based on its own policies and then I damn the adherents based on what they do themselves. This is how I can still support democracy despite the atrocities that have been committed by fervent believers of it. It's also how I can objectively look at the Roman Catholic Church and find fault with it, in many areas, because of its policies and then judge Roman Catholics for what they do independently. If a Roman Catholic kills someone that's not because of Roman Catholicism, that's because of the person. Until you can learn to separate the adherents and the institution, you're not going to be able to approach the debate rationally.
    I not damning an institution based on a few of its adherents. I am damning it on its own policies. Polices of self preservation.
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    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    Yes, it is possible there might not have been religious motives, but to believe that seems very wishful thinking. It almost certainly did.

    You can watch the documentary on iplayer btw.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016d7hz/This_World_Spains_Stolen_Babies/

    Again yes they might not have known, but again seems wishful thinking given past examples.

    I not damning an institution based on a few of its adherents. I am damning it on its own policies. Polices of self preservation.
    Wish I could watch the documentary, but living in Iceland means I can't. :sad: Damn iplayer.

    You know, I've never seen anywhere in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that clergy should steal babies from one family and give them to another. :hmmmm:
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Wish I could watch the documentary, but living in Iceland means I can't. :sad: Damn iplayer.
    Sure you can find a vpn to use.

    (Original post by Hylean)
    You know, I've never seen anywhere in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that clergy should steal babies from one family and give them to another. :hmmmm:
    Never said it was.
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    (Original post by Pangol)
    I just find it staggering that anyone gives any credence at all to an organisation that can have anything to do with this.
    By 'this' I'm assuming that you mean corruption, cover ups, child abuse, abuse of power etc?

    In which case how do you face the day?

    Let's see which of the following groups have never been involved in any of the above......

    Doctors? Lawyers? Nurses? Police? Fire Officers? Politicians? Shopkeepers? Families? The Evangelical Church? The Greek and Russian Orthodox Church? Hindus? Sikhs? Muslims? Jews? The Protestant Churches? Buddhists? Pagans? Freemasons? Atheists? Agnostics? Farmers? Road Hauliers? Teachers? Union Officials and members? Financiers? Pilots? Journalists? TV reporters? Celebrities? Actors? Musicians? Plumbers? Electricians? Builders? Vets? Sportsmen?.........

    Now tell me that you give no credence at all to anything any of these groups have to say.

    It is the fact that we are all human and are all sinful that is the problem. I'm sorry that you have not understood this (yet).

    The Catholic Church is at least awake to the problems and to the mistakes and misjudgements by individuals and groups within it. It is at least sincere in its attempts to put things right and is also unafraid to face up to its own problems.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    I am not, however, going to damn all of doctordom, the institution of medicine or the Roman Catholic Church just because members of them are ****ing awful.
    Can I suggest that this be moderated to 'some members of them are ****ing awful' ?
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    (Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
    The Catholic Church is at least awake to the problems and to the mistakes and misjudgements by individuals and groups within it. It is at least sincere in its attempts to put things right and is also unafraid to face up to its own problems.
    Seriously? If it is now then it has been forced upon them fighting it all the way. Not seen any sincerity myself.
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    You should not prejudge investigations that are nowhere near complete! Individuals make mistakes, groups of individuals also make mistakes, no one denies that. What I find curious is the targetting of the Catholic Church rather than other institutions that have also had members behaving in ways that conflict with the organisations' teaching.

    Are you saying that you expect no better of Doctors and Midwives than the stealing and selling of children? Otherwise why aren't they being included for criticism?

    This is simply use of horrible events to target Catholicism.
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    (Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
    You should not prejudge investigations that are nowhere near complete! Individuals make mistakes, groups of individuals also make mistakes, no one denies that. What I find curious is the targetting of the Catholic Church rather than other institutions that have also had members behaving in ways that conflict with the organisations' teaching.

    Are you saying that you expect no better of Doctors and Midwives than the stealing and selling of children? Otherwise why aren't they being included for criticism?

    This is simply use of horrible events to target Catholicism.
    Pretty easy target.

    I'd imagine they focus on the church through bias (it's quite hard not to be biased against them - assuming you don't fall for their rubbish) but also as it's the only "organised institution" involved in it - excluding the regime which is obviously evil and is already long gone anyway. My assumption would be that the doctors were largely Catholic and were acting under guidance from the Church. I obviously can't prove that but considering the deep Catholicism in Spain, it's the most likely scenario in my mind.

    By Church I mean the local Church - there doesn't appear to be any evidence that the Catholic Church outside of Spain knew about it. Yet, anyway...
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    Pretty easy target.

    I'd imagine they focus on the church through bias (it's quite hard not to be biased against them - assuming you don't fall for their rubbish) but also as it's the only &quot;organised institution&quot; involved in it - excluding the regime which is obviously evil and is already long gone anyway. My assumption would be that the doctors were largely Catholic and were acting under guidance from the Church. I obviously can't prove that but considering the deep Catholicism in Spain, it's the most likely scenario in my mind.

    By Church I mean the local Church - there doesn't appear to be any evidence that the Catholic Church outside of Spain knew about it. Yet, anyway...
    Actually, even when you don't fall for "their rubbish", it's still pretty easy to remain unbiased in this debate. Anyone who can't should check themselves out of the debate, as that would be the only rational thing to do.

    Are doctors now not an "organised institution" with an ethos they are expected to uphold?
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    Pretty easy target.

    I'd imagine they focus on the church through bias (it's quite hard not to be biased against them - assuming you don't fall for their rubbish) but also as it's the only "organised institution" involved in it - excluding the regime which is obviously evil and is already long gone anyway. My assumption would be that the doctors were largely Catholic and were acting under guidance from the Church. I obviously can't prove that but considering the deep Catholicism in Spain, it's the most likely scenario in my mind.
    The oldest unified institution on the planet? Over a billion members across the planet, and those are the ones who are still alive? You're right; it is an easy target.

    But let me ask you: does it make the news when a group of sincere nuns open and teach in a school for impoverished children in Africa? Does it make the news when a sincere priest spends his days off visiting children's hospital wards to give hope and reassurance to the patients and their families? Just my own family was actively involved in supporting the first, and the recipient of the kindness of the latter when my youngest sister nearly died and my family was barely holding on.

    So as a Catholic and a firsthand witness of the most incredibly altruistic people I've ever met work as clergymen and women, it makes me so angry first that tragic things like this have happened, secondly that it makes people like you think you're justified in tarring those people with the same brush.

    Stealing children away from their mothers and selling them is against everything that Catholicism teaches about the sanctity of the family and of human life. The fact that people nominally within the church may have been blinded by greed, political pressures or thought they could take the place of God by deciding what children should go where, has nothing to do with those beliefs but are in fact in spite of them. Catholicism does not consist of the actions of all of its members. So kindly keep that in mind, please.
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    (Original post by amandacalifornia)
    The oldest unified institution on the planet? Over a billion members across the planet, and those are the ones who are still alive? You're right; it is an easy target.

    But let me ask you: does it make the news when a group of sincere nuns open and teach in a school for impoverished children in Africa? Does it make the news when a sincere priest spends his days off visiting children's hospital wards to give hope and reassurance to the patients and their families? Just my own family was actively involved in supporting the first, and the recipient of the kindness of the latter when my youngest sister nearly died and my family was barely holding on.

    So as a Catholic and a firsthand witness of the most incredibly altruistic people I've ever met work as clergymen and women, it makes me so angry first that tragic things like this have happened, secondly that it makes people like you think you're justified in tarring those people with the same brush.

    Stealing children away from their mothers and selling them is against everything that Catholicism teaches about the sanctity of the family and of human life. The fact that people nominally within the church may have been blinded by greed, political pressures or thought they could take the place of God by deciding what children should go where, has nothing to do with those beliefs but are in fact in spite of them. Catholicism does not consist of the actions of all of its members. So kindly keep that in mind, please.
    No it doesn't make the news. Just like atheists, Protestants, Muslims or Buddhists doing such things doesn't make the news.

    How am I tarring those people with the same brush? Granted I think Catholics - like all people involved in organised religions - are idiots, but I make no connections between cases like this and Catholics who do good.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Admittedly, you're right, they should behave better and I'd like to know why they participated in it, but the Roman Catholic clergy also admit to being human and thus sinners, ie not perfect. :dontknow:
    It makes you question the recruitment, employment policies and supervision within the RCC. Individuals make mistakes, sure, but the goal of an organization should be to minimize the damage done.

    There are understandable mistakes which are part of any large organization, and then there is gross negligence. This story - involving cases spanning decades - sounds like an example of the latter.
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    (Original post by amandacalifornia)
    The oldest unified institution on the planet? Over a billion members across the planet, and those are the ones who are still alive? You're right; it is an easy target.

    But let me ask you: does it make the news when a group of sincere nuns open and teach in a school for impoverished children in Africa? Does it make the news when a sincere priest spends his days off visiting children's hospital wards to give hope and reassurance to the patients and their families? Just my own family was actively involved in supporting the first, and the recipient of the kindness of the latter when my youngest sister nearly died and my family was barely holding on.

    So as a Catholic and a firsthand witness of the most incredibly altruistic people I've ever met work as clergymen and women, it makes me so angry first that tragic things like this have happened, secondly that it makes people like you think you're justified in tarring those people with the same brush.

    Stealing children away from their mothers and selling them is against everything that Catholicism teaches about the sanctity of the family and of human life. The fact that people nominally within the church may have been blinded by greed, political pressures or thought they could take the place of God by deciding what children should go where, has nothing to do with those beliefs but are in fact in spite of them. Catholicism does not consist of the actions of all of its members. So kindly keep that in mind, please.
    Its exactly this type attitude that is the problem with the Church and many of its followers and if it continues we will only see more of these scandals. The Church has a duty to prevent these incidents happening. No one expects everyone within the Church to be perfect and no one expects there to never be scandals. Pointing fingers at others and and brushing it under the carpet as a few rotten eggs amongst a large number a good people and good deeds seems to me like a massive dereliction of duty.

    You don't prevent these things happening by ignoring it and covering it up you only end up encouraging more of the same. The undeniable fact is the Church has failed massively in its duties, had any other institution failed so massively they would either no longer be around or we would have seen huge change within them. Yet the Church seems to fight any change or openness at any expense.
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    (Original post by @*=-+1!<>6)
    Its exactly this type attitude that is the problem with the Church and many of its followers and if it continues we will only see more of these scandals. The Church has a duty to prevent these incidents happening. No one expects everyone within the Church to be perfect and no one expects there to never be scandals. Pointing fingers at others and and brushing it under the carpet as a few rotten eggs amongst a large number a good people and good deeds seems to me like a massive dereliction of duty.

    You don't prevent these things happening by ignoring it and covering it up you only end up encouraging more of the same. The undeniable fact is the Church has failed massively in its duties, had any other institution failed so massively they would either no longer be around or we would have seen huge change within them. Yet the Church seems to fight any change or openness at any expense.
    No, I said the truth. You made this thread not to find out what the truth is in this, not to talk about this rationally, but to dog pile an attack on Catholicism itself, as evidenced by the title of this thread, its placement in the "Religion" section, and your subsequent posts. I responded in kind.

    As I said, Catholic beliefs are not compatible with these actions. Catholicism teaches that the family is sacred, and doing what's right, performing good works and being charitable are vital and necessary to the life of a Christian. And yes, as in most any group of people, there are rotten eggs among many sincere people.

    The facts of the matter are that stealing children was an official, systematic policy in Spain during the Franco regime. Falangists took children from dissident parents to be raised by those sympathetic to the government. It is also a fact that Catholic clergy are heavily involved in volunteering in Spanish hospitals. Common sense should tell you that that is not because of some diabolical church plot to kidnap children. If some nuns continued this policy for their own economic benefit after the Franco regime it was not because they were Catholic, but probably because they were affected by that cultural context and abused their position. Nuns are required to make a vow of poverty. I seriously doubt they were reporting this to any kind of church authority. And in fact I don't know why they would since they were working in the setting of a hospital and delivering children and signing birth certificates has nothing to do with the church.

    If any impropriety beyond that comes to light, including any administrative failures, then it should be exposed. Period. And precautions should be put in place to prevent it happening again. But it should also be kept in mind that it is but a piece of a fallible global network, administered by churchmen and theologians, and neither should it nullify the good work or the foundation of the rest of their church. Which is what this thread is all about.
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    (Original post by amandacalifornia)
    And precautions should be put in place to prevent it happening again. But it should also be kept in mind that it is but a piece of a fallible global network, administered by churchmen and theologians, and neither should it nullify the good work or the foundation of the rest of their church.
    "Precautions"?! If members of an organization are engaging in large-scale collaboration with fascist regimes then you don't look for "precautions". You have a radical rethink about how the organization works.
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    (Original post by Kolya)
    "Precautions"?! If members of an organization are engaging in large-scale collaboration with fascist regimes then you don't look for "precautions". You have a radical rethink about how the organization works.
    And you would suggest it radically rethink itself into what form? What form would guarantee that its members adhere to their faith and are unaffected by their cultural/political climate?

    People in the Catholic Church have taken all kinds of different political positions. Google Oscar Romero, the Catholic Worker movement and liberation theology, for instance. But that's just what they are, political positions. This wikipedia article has a general summary of Catholic teachings about the role of society, the individual and the state here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_social_teaching.

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