[Historophilia]

(Original post by jam277)
Yes it is, two wrongs don't make a right. The person who did wrong punished somebody, so God punishing you is a sin as well right?

The person who did wrong wasn't punishing somebody the reason that they are sent to hell is because what they did had no justification and they did not truly repent or make amends.

God would be punishing them because they have not tried to atone for their crime to him.

And also, Chrstians would belive that God is above sin, he is all-knowing so whatever he does is right, God cannot sin, sin is a concept which applies only to humanity.

And just to clarify i'm an athiest but I find christian theology interesting

[damidude]

(Original post by jam277)
Yes it is, two wrongs don't make a right. The person who did wrong punished somebody, so God punishing you is a sin as well right?

OKAY! LETS NOT SEND ANY RAPISTS TO JAIL!!!!!!

Hint: the only other alternative is to allow the original evil to continue. Any organised society must punish for order and balance.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by beccac94)
Yeah but it makes sense to praise people who where evil to encourage them to be even more evil.

Would a genocidal maniac praise and encourage more people to be like him or would he simply not care and just carry on being a genocidal maniac?

im thinking the latter. i think youre thinking of it as more of a 'joining a cult' situation rather than an evil/good situation

[PendulumBoB]

(Original post by beccac94)
As an atheist I don't believe in heaven or hell but I was having a conversation and this topic was brought up.

If the devil was evil then surely he wouldn't punish sinners who got sent to hell instead surely he would prasie them and shower them with gifts.

There is no biblical basis for the Devil being in charge in hell.

[jam277]

(Original post by Historophilia)
The person who did wrong wasn't punishing somebody the reason that they are sent to hell is because what they did had no justification and they did not truly repent or make amends.

God would be punishing them because they have not tried to atone for their crime to him.

And also, Chrstians would belive that God is above sin, he is all-knowing so whatever he does is right, God cannot sin, sin is a concept which applies only to humanity.

And just to clarify i'm an athiest but I find christian theology interesting

Ok, so say someone killed your brother, you would punish them by killing them. They have a justification for doing it in their eyes.
In God's eyes that might be seen as wrong, but in the murderers eyes it isn't wrong, say the murderer was also schizophrenic, does he get the get out of jail free card because he wasn't in the right state of mind when he did it, that wasn't the real him, or would got make the schizophrenic part of him go to hell?
Just wondering, I jumble my thoughts a bit so sorry if this doesn't make sense.

[Jacktri]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
Would a genocidal maniac praise and encourage more people to be like him or would he simply not care and just carry on being a genocidal maniac?

im thinking the latter. i think youre thinking of it as more of a 'joining a cult' situation rather than an evil/good situation

Wait are you talking about Satan or God? because God has actually committed genocide but Satan hasn't.

[jam277]

(Original post by damidude)
OKAY! LETS NOT SEND ANY RAPISTS TO JAIL!!!!!!

Hint: the only other alternative is to allow the original evil to continue. Any organised society must punish for order and balance.

However, what I meant is, who has the right to punish someone else? Do you punish to protect ourselves and rehabilitate the person, or do we punish for revenge because of what the sinner did? Because sending someone to hell is revenge, surely God could help him become good again and go to heaven and punish him to rehabilitate him?
After all, he is benevolent, why disadvantage his own creation and send them to hell?
By the way, I don't agree with capital punishment, so that's why I see it in this perspective.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Jacktri)
Wait are you talking about Satan or God? because God has actually committed genocide but Satan hasn't.

i was replying to a person talking about what it means to be 'evil', would an evil person praise other people trying to be evil, or would they simply not care...

edit: so basically would satan praise you for being evil?
hold on.... im starting to get confused lol, in terms of greek gods for example, would Hades also be titled Satan? Being lord of the underworld...(or...dead people), can he really commit genocide when the people are already dead?

[Alenda]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
Would a genocidal maniac praise and encourage more people to be like him or would he simply not care and just carry on being a genocidal maniac?

Wait are you referring to god? Out of satan and god he's the only one who has committed genocide as far as i'm aware? Maybe people in hell are actually tortured by god, that would make alot more sense and goes with his character.

EDIT: LOL just noticed someone else had said the same thing..

[Historophilia]

(Original post by jam277)
Ok, so say someone killed your brother, you would punish them by killing them. They have a justification for doing it in their eyes.
In God's eyes that might be seen as wrong, but in the murderers eyes it isn't wrong, say the murderer was also schizophrenic, does he get the get out of jail free card because he wasn't in the right state of mind when he did it, that wasn't the real him, or would got make the schizophrenic part of him go to hell?
Just wondering, I jumble my thoughts a bit so sorry if this doesn't make sense.

Jesus said the turn the other cheek and to forgive those who do you wrong so the christian thing to would have been to forgive the murderer and pray for him. Even though that would be incredibly hard to do.

Seeking revenge for a murder with another murder would be a sin in Gods eyes. But remember sin can be atoned for and if you truly seek forgiveness from God and truly repent then you would be spared hell but false repentence wouldn't work, God would always know who deserves to avoid it.

And if the murderer was mentally ill? I can't say, you'd have to ask a proper theologian about that.

[Trigger2]

err...the devil doesn't punish people. God does. I think the devil will be one of those who is punished.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Alenda)
Wait are you referring to god? Out of satan and god he's the only one who has committed genocide as far as i'm aware? Maybe people in hell are actually tortured by god, that would make alot more sense and goes with his character.

EDIT: LOL just noticed someone else had said the same thing..

read the reply to that guys lol,

also what do you think about the edit i mentioned in it?

[Historophilia]

(Original post by jam277)
surely God could help him become good again and go to heaven and punish him to rehabilitate him?
After all, he is benevolent, why disadvantage his own creation and send them to hell?.

God gave humans free will and so it is up to us to act for good or evil, God cannot and does not want to manipulate our minds. Only the sinner can change his ways and make himself worthy of heaven.

He wants people to come to him of their own free will and belive in him of their own free will and he does not want to send his creations to hell but if they do not truly repent of their crimes he will punish them for it.

[jam277]

(Original post by Historophilia)
Jesus said the turn the other cheek and to forgive those who do you wrong so the christian thing to would have been to forgive the murderer and pray for him. Even though that would be incredibly hard to do.

Seeking revenge for a murder with another murder would be a sin in Gods eyes. But remember sin can be atoned for and if you truly seek forgiveness from God and truly repent then you would be spared hell but false repentence wouldn't work, God would always know who deserves to avoid it.

And if the murderer was mentally ill? I can't say, you'd have to ask a proper theologian about that.

The last bit see. It's an indecisive issue, would God see that the person wasn't in the right state of mind, or would it still be that person who did the crime so he should be punished?

[mc1000]

(Original post by Sheep)
lol "as a christian, I recognize the bible has some stupid ass bits in it, so I decided to use my imagination and replace them with my own ideas"

don't feel bad, all christians do it, look wat happened to the old testament

You don't have a clue.


The NT is generally fine - and even the inaccuracies (of which there are few, believe it or not) can be rectified with a bit of logic. Even then, Christianity can still apply so that's a non-argument from you.

The OT isn't even relevant to christianity for the most part, and a lot of it (such as Noah's Ark) is a fairytale, so I don't read it anyway.


How about; "As an atheist I recognise that something can come from nothing and use this, along with the statistically highly improbable existence of a habitable earth, to declare everything to happen by blind chance which in turn is near-proof that God can't exist."

Even less logic there than in the bible if you ask me.

[jam277]

(Original post by Historophilia)
God gave humans free will and so it is up to us to act for good or evil, God cannot and does not want to manipulate our minds. Only the sinner can change his ways and make himself worthy of heaven.

He wants people to come to him of their own free will and belive in him of their own free will and he does not want to send his creations to hell but if they do not truly repent of their crimes he will punish them for it.

But look, any sane person who realises that God is there would truly repent on their sins, you always need God's guidance right? So you need God's guidance for knowing what is right or wrong, I'm sure God is with everyone according to the scriptures and he is stronger than satan, then why do people always succumb to satans desire and sin, even if they ask for God's guidance to help them? That would surely mean that the devils temptation is stronger than God's love.
Just wondering.

[mc1000]

(Original post by jam277)
But look, any sane person who realises that God is there would truly repent on their sins, you always need God's guidance right? So you need God's guidance for knowing what is right or wrong, I'm sure God is with everyone according to the scriptures and he is stronger than satan, then why do people always succumb to satans desire and sin, even if they ask for God's guidance to help them? That would surely mean that the devils temptation is stronger than God's love.
Just wondering.

Yep, pretty much.

I believe it comes down to fluctuating power throughout all of geological history. It's the only explanation for suffering. So from this we might infer that since the dawn of humanity, Satan has been more powerful than God.

That's not to say God won't regain his power over Satan, though. I believe that God will emerge victorious - which is something that most other christians believe but don't have the intuition to understand that Satan has a hold over humanity at the present time.

[Historophilia]

(Original post by jam277)
The last bit see. It's an indecisive issue, would God see that the person wasn't in the right state of mind, or would it still be that person who did the crime so he should be punished?

I honestly can't say for certain, like I said I'm an athiest but I was brought up christian and still find the complex moral arguments in theology fascinating.

I would guess that a theologian would say that God does not punish the innocent, if he truly had no control over himself or simply could not understand that it was wrong then he would forgive them.

If he was mentally ill but could in fact have restrained himself and did not repent their crime later then they would be punished.

So I would think that mental illness wouldn't count as a 'get out of jail free card' for sin but it could be a reason for God to forgive your crimes.

[tammie94]

(Original post by beccac94)
Yeah but it makes sense to praise people who where evil to encourage them to be even more evil.

Satan only encourages humans to be evil so that they can punished in hell, and he can prove his point that humans aren't perfect just like him. He wants to prove that his evil is reflected in humans. Why would he praise them in hell if he has nothing left to prove, I mean if he's gonna burn then wouldn't he want others to burn with him, so he can die with pride?

[Historophilia]

(Original post by mc1000)
Yep, pretty much.

God and Satan, I believe, have fluctuating power. It's the only explanation for suffering. So from this we might infer that since the dawn of humanity, Satan has been more powerful than God.

Christian theology states that the devil was created by God (the angel Lucifer that he once was) and all the power he has comes from him and he can only act if God allows him to.

The idea that Satan and God are equal and opposite and in battle with each other for souls would be regarded as false, it was what the Cathars (google them) belived and they were regarded as heretics.

Christians have many explanations for sin, many would say that most human suffering is caused by the actions of other humans. When bad things happen to good people it is more difficult to explain, some would say that it is a test of faith or that we cannot possibly explain why God behaves as he does as he is too far beyond human understanding.