Banning abortion is inhumane, murder and is against human rights.
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Original post by Lost4468
Are you a vegan?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL nah mate, I like beef too much
and bacon, sausage...
He likes bacon.. I was sure the guy's a Muslim.
Original post by Dr_Alchem
LOOOOOOOOOOOOL nah mate, I like beef too much and bacon, sausage...
and bacon, sausage...Yet according to you destroying any life is bad and doing anything to affect any life is bad! Can you answer my other 2 questions on the previous page.
To all the "pro-choice" (pro abortion) people here: you claim it isn't murder because the law says so, so be consistent and don't say that overpopulation or risk of higher crime rate has anything to do with murder, which is a mile further away from the statutory definition.
Apart from that, there is little new here. "Mothers shouldn't be forced to..." etc, I would say "children shouldn't be forced to die before they have the chance to even be born." It comes down to personhood, as Missisippians have just voted on- results later tonight UK time, their evening- it'll be a close one. If the life in the womb constitutes a person, it is wrong to abort prima facie, unless you believe that killing of persons is justified (which is against just about every system of morality ever proposed.)
Apart from that, there is little new here. "Mothers shouldn't be forced to..." etc, I would say "children shouldn't be forced to die before they have the chance to even be born." It comes down to personhood, as Missisippians have just voted on- results later tonight UK time, their evening- it'll be a close one. If the life in the womb constitutes a person, it is wrong to abort prima facie, unless you believe that killing of persons is justified (which is against just about every system of morality ever proposed.)
Original post by Lost4468
Yet according to you destroying any life is bad and doing anything to affect any life is bad! Can you answer my other 2 questions on the previous page.
nah, my point is destroying any CONSCIOUS life is bad, think I answered your questions before, but if not I'll answer them by editing this post
EDIT: Yep, I did, should be near the bottom of pg 5
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Dr_Alchem
nah, my point is destroying any CONSCIOUS life is bad, think I answered your questions before, but if not I'll answer them by editing this post
Why didn't you say that earlier? A fetus at the legal age of abortion is definitely unconcious you can't even argue against it it's a fact. (Less concious than a cow is before being slaughtered)
Original post by Dr_Alchem
nah, my point is destroying any CONSCIOUS life is bad, think I answered your questions before, but if not I'll answer them by editing this post
EDIT: Yep, I did, should be near the bottom of pg 5
EDIT: Yep, I did, should be near the bottom of pg 5
Pigs and cows are concious. And my question/statements where the following posts.
"God supports abortion in a few places through out the bible, and is against it in others, he seems like a pro choice guy to me. In numbers there is a quote that basically says if man thinks his wife is pregnant with another man's baby then he can take her to the church and have the priest use holly water to kill the baby. But I would also like to add, **** your religious argument, as if we're to live in a secular society religion can't have any affect on the laws we make."
Not question sorry.
"If a man is raped by a woman (if you say this doesn't happen then you're naive and just trying to avoid answering) then should he have to pay child support to the child?"
Can you answer this one.
Original post by Sgt.Incontro
To further confirm the fact that God views the unborn child as a person, please consider Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"
Therefore Christianity also considers it murder. Not only Islam. (And Islam is not my faith.)
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"
Therefore Christianity also considers it murder. Not only Islam. (And Islam is not my faith.)
You're quoting Bible passages to atheists, most of us consider the Bible to be utter horse ****. That will get you nowhere. And if you DO want to get into quoting Bible verses, here are a few little gems advocating murder from the Bible:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Although I'm sure you'll conveniently ignore those.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Dragonfly07
Why didn't you say that earlier? A fetus at the legal age of abortion is definitely unconcious you can't even argue against it it's a fact. (Less concious than a cow is before being slaughtered)
Wait, wait...I meant to say terminating any POTENTIAL (CONSCIOUS) LIFE, i.e. potential within a reasonable timeframe, is bad.
LOOOOL wait a sec...am I the only person on here who atm isn't pro-choice?
Original post by Dr_Alchem
Wait, wait...I meant to say terminating any POTENTIAL (CONSCIOUS) LIFE, i.e. potential within a reasonable timeframe, is bad.
LOOOOL wait a sec...am I the only person on here who atm isn't pro-choice?
LOOOOL wait a sec...am I the only person on here who atm isn't pro-choice?
There aren't many pro choice people out there. The people who are against abortion are mainly religious. Most atheists are pro choice and many religious women are pro choice against their religion (trying to justify it by cherry picking). The majority of people opposing the very idea of abortion are men, who shouldn't have any say on it in the first place.
Original post by Sendaii
You're quoting Bible passages to atheists, most of us consider the Bible to be utter horse ****. That will get you nowhere. And if you DO want to get into quoting Bible verses, here are a few little gems advocating murder from the Bible:
[etc. etc.]
[etc. etc.]
Some of those quotes, as per usual, are being taken out of historical context. I know the ones in Leviticus and Exodus probably strictly apply to Israelites at that time. Christians take their teachings mostly from the New Testament - and if you notice, ALL of your quotes are from Old Testament books...which are admittedly laden with incongruity.
Original post by Dragonfly07
There aren't many pro choice people out there. The people who are against abortion are mainly religious. The majority of people opposing the very idea of abortion are men, who shouldn't have any say on it in the first place.
Ouch, that's a bit sexist don't you think? If a man can come up with half of the stuff that is necessary to make it, surely his input after fertilisation has an equal weighting, or at least SOME say in it.
Also:
Original post by Dragonfly07
Most atheists are pro choice and many religious women are pro choice against their religion (trying to justify it by cherry picking).
Oh the irony
Original post by Dr_Alchem
Ouch, that's a bit sexist don't you think? If a man can come up with half of the stuff that is necessary to make it, surely his input after fertilisation has an equal weighting, or at least SOME say in it.
Also:
Oh the irony
Also:
Oh the irony
Pigs and cows are concious. And my question/statements where the following posts.
"God supports abortion in a few places through out the bible, and is against it in others, he seems like a pro choice guy to me. In numbers there is a quote that basically says if man thinks his wife is pregnant with another man's baby then he can take her to the church and have the priest use holly water to kill the baby. But I would also like to add, **** your religious argument, as if we're to live in a secular society religion can't have any affect on the laws we make."
Not question sorry.
"If a man is raped by a woman (if you say this doesn't happen then you're naive and just trying to avoid answering) then should he have to pay child support to the child?"
Can you answer this one.
Original post by Dr_Alchem
Ouch, that's a bit sexist don't you think? If a man can come up with half of the stuff that is necessary to make it, surely his input after fertilisation has an equal weighting, or at least SOME say in it.
Also:
Oh the irony
Also:
Oh the irony
Abortion would have the same moral debate around it if God had designed men to carry babies. When euthanasia, assisted dying or other issues around justifiable killing get debated gender isn't brought into it. So the fact that females go through gestation and not males has little relevance.
Because it is an ethical matter, not a matter of "the sisterhood shouldn't be trampled on by men" or whatever, both sexes have an equal right to contribute.
The idea that you need personal experience of something to have a say in it is obviously faulty. Do you need to know of a robbery of someone close to you to say stealing is wrong?
Original post by Lost4468
Pigs and cows are concious. And my question/statements where the following posts.
"God supports abortion in a few places through out the bible, and is against it in others, he seems like a pro choice guy to me. In numbers there is a quote that basically says if man thinks his wife is pregnant with another man's baby then he can take her to the church and have the priest use holly water to kill the baby. But I would also like to add, **** your religious argument, as if we're to live in a secular society religion can't have any affect on the laws we make."
Not question sorry.
"If a man is raped by a woman (if you say this doesn't happen then you're naive and just trying to avoid answering) then should he have to pay child support to the child?"
Can you answer this one.
"God supports abortion in a few places through out the bible, and is against it in others, he seems like a pro choice guy to me. In numbers there is a quote that basically says if man thinks his wife is pregnant with another man's baby then he can take her to the church and have the priest use holly water to kill the baby. But I would also like to add, **** your religious argument, as if we're to live in a secular society religion can't have any affect on the laws we make."
Not question sorry.
"If a man is raped by a woman (if you say this doesn't happen then you're naive and just trying to avoid answering) then should he have to pay child support to the child?"
Can you answer this one.
Not paying child support doesn't KILL the child...
Original post by ScheduleII
Abortion would have the same moral debate around it if God had designed men to carry babies. When euthanasia, assisted dying or other issues around justifiable killing get debated gender isn't brought into it. So the fact that females go through gestation and not males has little relevance.
Because it is an ethical matter, not a matter of "the sisterhood shouldn't be trampled on by men" or whatever, both sexes have an equal right to contribute.
The idea that you need personal experience of something to have a say in it is obviously faulty. Do you need to know of a robbery of someone close to you to say stealing is wrong?
Because it is an ethical matter, not a matter of "the sisterhood shouldn't be trampled on by men" or whatever, both sexes have an equal right to contribute.
The idea that you need personal experience of something to have a say in it is obviously faulty. Do you need to know of a robbery of someone close to you to say stealing is wrong?
I think you quoted the wrong person bro, I'm FOR male inclusionin decisions.
Original post by ScheduleII
Not paying child support doesn't KILL the child...
Sorry wrong person. The other guy still wont answer me.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Dr_Alchem
I think you quoted the wrong person bro, I'm FOR male inclusionin decisions.
I was supporting your point.
Original post by ScheduleII
Abortion would have the same moral debate around it if 3.God had designed men to carry babies. 1.When euthanasia, assisted dying or other issues around justifiable killing get debated gender isn't brought into it. 2.So the fact that females go through gestation and not males has little relevance.
4. Because it is an ethical matter, not a matter of "the sisterhood shouldn't be trampled on by men" or whatever, both sexes have an equal right to contribute.
The idea that you need personal experience of something to have a say in it is obviously faulty. Do you need to know of a robbery of someone close to you to say stealing is wrong?
4. Because it is an ethical matter, not a matter of "the sisterhood shouldn't be trampled on by men" or whatever, both sexes have an equal right to contribute.
The idea that you need personal experience of something to have a say in it is obviously faulty. Do you need to know of a robbery of someone close to you to say stealing is wrong?
1.That's because euthanasia, assisted dying or 'other issues around justifiable killing' arn't primarily about women's bodies. Abortion is primarily about women and women's bodies because pregnancy happens entirely within the body of a woman and entirely outside the body of a man. It has everything to do with gender.
2. Horse ****.
3. Some people don't believe god exists and don't want the views of those who do believe in god (re: about abortion) imposed on them. Say no to your theist tyranny. You're free to try and control and dictate over your Christianity/Insert religion here subscribing wife however you please, however, you will never be dictating over my life.
4. Yes it is an ethical matter. The ethical issue being that is unethical to dictate over the lives of women and girls in the way you propose.
I realise my numbering system is a mess.
(edited 12 years ago)
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