Graduate and jobless.

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No, sorry, you cannot write the same skills on your CV from doing a few hours part time work a week as someone who has a proper professional job, not by a long shot

But how many people go from school into a profession? Nearly every professional job now requires a degree, so it would be rather difficult. Leaving school and shelf-stacking for 5 years would be the same skills developed as those who shelf-stack for 5 months.

Reply 121

Jake22

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Wow, you got personal quick, didn't you?

Sorry if you felt that way. I was actually intending to play the devil's advocate and didn't intend anything as a personal attack on you.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

I'm not going post my CV but I've done much more than 'waking up at 10am everyday for 50 weeks a year'.

Again, I wasn't trying to suggest that that is what you did but it is what many do and that is how it will be perceived in general. In fact, you may well have worked very hard on your degree and been very conscientious about it but my point is that that says something about you and your personality that isn't well represented by the fact that you have a degree. That quality is something you would have to convince people of by different means.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

I'm also not a person lacking in confidence who is unable to stand up for myself. I don't know which McDonald's you worked in but obviously places are different, and a McD's in Croxteth is going to be a lot different from a McD's in Windermere isn't it?

I didn't work in a MacShack in a great area. We had self righteous ********s coming in and also drunk and/or aggressive people too. I even had a gun pointed at me on one occaision.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Why should I just 'deal with' people who spit in your face? I'm not doing a job like that - I do not have to deal with that. If I didn't have the right 'skills' to deal with that, then nor did anyone on my team. I can deal with reasonable people, I cannot deal with abusive and violent people - and it wasn't what I signed up for (unlike in security or working in pubs). So, good for you that you're willing to let people treat you like ****, but I won't.

Obviously, if someone is excessively violent or aggressive then there isn't much you can do without responding in kind yourself which depending on the precise situation might be dangerous and unfair on your collegues and bystanders but if you are just talking about ********s who look down on people in low paid jobs then you shouldn't have to deal with that - I just refused to serve them or pointed out that there complaints were pitty and that it was only a burger and fries and I wasn't going to take an ear bashing about it.

I just meant to say that you might be in situations where you come accross ********s but you shouldn't be expected to appease them at all.

When I worked in a city centre pub, we used to get ****ers coming in causing trouble all the time. We only had bouncers on Friday and Saturday nights and I remember on a couple of occaisions, being the only male on duty, the supervisors tried to make me throw people out. One time, a guy who had been barred was smashing glasses and throwing glass ashtrays about the place and I just said "No. I'm not dealing with that - call the police. I am not risking getting hurt for £6 an hour." If I felt people were rude or aggressive - I just wouldn't serve them and asked them to leave. That way, I didn't real feel like I was getting treated like **** at all because I just refused to accept it.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

You don't need 5 years in work to be able to 'deal with things properly' or not be a 'scared fish'. You do not need 5 years of work to demonstrate that. Your argument seems to be that because you worked from 16-21, that you are better suited for work than someone who continued their education from 16-21. But you're wrong, since a person in education can work part time and still get a formal education, whilst you are working full time and getting no formal education. Someone who works part time can write the same skills on their CV (timekeeping, dealing well under pressure etc) as you, plus an education.

No, but it provides more evidence. That is all my point is about. A degree (in the abscence of other information) doesn't really say that there is anything special or worthwile about the potential employee.

You rightly point out that many students accumulate some decent part-time work experience alongside their studies but that doesn't have anything to do with their degree. That is to say, there is nothing wrong about them having done a degree but it is these other facts about them that are more relevant - the degree itself isn't saying much.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Also, there are plenty of people who have had left school at 16 and had years of work experience who are incompetent and constantly asking others for help. The fact that you worked from 16-21 is neither here nor there - how long you have worked or how long you have worked between school and uni is not indication of you competence.

True. Although if the person wasn't a competent worker - they presumably wouldn't have progressed as far and wouldn't have as good references and soforth so their 5 years of shoddy work performance wouldn't be that helpful to them.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Again, why do you assume that people who went straight from school to uni have no work experience or extra curricular things on the CV whatsoever? None of my uni mates have simply done their degree and nothing else.

I don't assume that. The point was more that it is those extracurricular activities that are more impressive and say more about the person. Perhaps being at university opened their minds to or just directly gave them the opportunity to do various things that they wouldn't have otherwise done (e.g. joined a rowing team etc.) but aside from that - the fact that they went to university and got a degree isn't impressive and doesn't tell you much so it isn't the fact that they, for example, got a 2:1 in History that is impressive or says much about their character that is impressive whereas the fact that they won races suggests that they got up early and trained hard to acheive success etc.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Not 'everyone' has a degree - I was the first person in my family to go to uni and where I'm from people do not go to university.

I know. I was the second in mine (my older brother being the first) and most of my friends from back home don't have so much as an A-level between them but nowadays more than 50% of 18 year olds are going to university.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Also to claim that you can get a 2:1 without hard work is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard. Maybe that was the way you decided to approach your degree? Maybe your degree was 'easy'? Maybe you're just academically gifted? It's not reflective of everyone else.

I put a fair amount of effort in but it was concentrated in short intense bursts. However, looking at the other 200+ students on my course - more than half of whom got 2:1s or firsts - I can barely name a handful who consistently worked hard throughout the year. By working hard, I mean compared to most other things in life where you would either have to work with common extreme bouts of intensity (say, training for competetive sport) or where you would have to work consistent long hours (like in most workplaces). Even for people who struggled with the material and worked 'hard' to get a 2:2 or 2:1 - you are still only talking about a few hours a day at most with concentrated burst around exam times. Students who put in 40 hours a week on uni work are pretty rare.

My course was maths and to be fair, it is probably a lot lighter in difficulty (and moreso workload) compared to many other subjects but still...

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Also, to many graduate employers - Aldi's grad scheme for instance - a degree is not 'humdrum' or something that everyone has, it's required.

That is exactly why it is humdrum. To them it is just a simple blanket requirement like the fact that you need the right to work in the UK. 'Official' Grad schemes form a small proportion of jobs that university graduates go into and in many cases one can get into those roles via other methods.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

It's also an indicator that someone invested 3 years of their life and a lot of money into getting educated and putting in effort and making something better of themselves.

Firstly, with respect to the investment of money - that isn't a positive sign. That is just like saying because you invest a load of money into shares you deserve to make a profit because of the insight you had in making a shrewd investment. Treating a degree as a financial investement is very speculative and as is so often the case - a poor move when viewed in purely financial terms.

In terms of investing 3 years of your life and making the effort to better yourself... maybe you thought it through and saw it like that but the brutal fact is that most don't. Most people just drift into it without any thought. The fact that you thought about it like that says something about you that makes the actual degree kind of irrelevant. The degree alone is poor evidence of that kind of thinking because people generally don't perceive it the way you do. This is the point I was trying to make.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Good for you that you worked when you left school, good for you that you have relevant work experience, but some of us aren't so lucky that we can live as an independent for 5 years and then afford to go to uni.

Well, I didn't have a great deal of choice in the matter and if I hadn't have been able to find work and support myself then the state would have done anyway. I could afford to go to university because I got the same financial assistance that everybody else does (alongside some personal savings that I made leading up to the degree). The point is that I wasn't lucky - I just took advantage of the same opportunities that everyone else has.

Original post by somethingbeautiful

Good for you. But don't look down on others who have spent 17 years straight in education with no breaks, worked part time, done work experience etc only to be met with a ****ed job market upon graduation. That's not their fault.

I don't look down on such people. As I have said, I am just trying to point out that in general a 21 year old with a degree won't be considered as worth much more money or to be more capable then an 18 year old with maybe a couple of years experience in retail at best and that frankly - in most cases - rightly so.

You will know yourself through work and looking around at your university colleagues that there are many young people who easily go from the structured environment of school into the structured environment at university and know how to get by but utterly fail in even the most basic of work environments. How many times have you worked a retail job alongside a student part-timer or fresh graduate who can't focus or manage simple tasks without instruction and seem unable to put the required effort in?

To risk repeating myself yet again - the degree doesn't say anything. Maybe you deserve better and are more capable and worthy of higher employment but you have to face the simple fact that your degree doesn't provide any evidence of that; the only thing that can do is showing how capable you are in work and expressing to potential employers your particular qualities, skills and work ethic in such a way that they can see it. You can't rely on the degree alone to transmit those aspects of your intelligence and personality.

Reply 122

M1011

Original post by Jake22

To risk repeating myself yet again - the degree doesn't say anything. Maybe you deserve better and are more capable and worthy of higher employment but you have to face the simple fact that your degree doesn't provide any evidence of that; the only thing that can do is showing how capable you are in work and expressing to potential employers your particular qualities, skills and work ethic in such a way that they can see it. You can't rely on the degree alone to transmit those aspects of your intelligence and personality.

A degree doesn't say anything about a person? Jees, this is news to me! :tongue:

IMO people concentrate far to much on trying to say what is the most important things to do and forget to look at the bigger picture. Frankly, I'd rather have relevant work experience AND a degree. Work experience speaks of your ability in the 'real world' whereas a degree speaks of your aptitude for the future.

Again, this is only in my humble opinion, but I would argue that in the situation where a capable person goes straight into the workplace at 18 vs the same person going through a degree and entering the workplace at 21, the 18 year old started would be ahead on average when the 21 year old entered the workplace. I think it is from this you're deriving that a degree isn't worthwhile. However, assuming both are equally capable, who do you honestly believe is going to be further ahead in 10 years time? The one with the education and qualifications or the one who can put down '13 years work experience' as opposed to '10 years work experience'?

Furthermore, depending on what you do with your degree, you can come out on top after 3 years IMO. I'm graduating this year and I doubt very much that I could have achieved the position I'm joining in a few months had I not gone down the degree route. However I realise that I may be in the minority in that respect, judging by what I see on here anyway.

Reply 123

Jake22

Original post by M1011

A degree doesn't say anything about a person? Jees, this is news to me! :tongue:

It doesn't say a great deal, in and of itself, no.

Original post by M1011

I think it is from this you're deriving that a degree isn't worthwhile. However, assuming both are equally capable, who do you honestly believe is going to be further ahead in 10 years time? The one with the education and qualifications or the one who can put down '13 years work experience' as opposed to '10 years work experience'?

Furthermore, depending on what you do with your degree, you can come out on top after 3 years IMO. I'm graduating this year and I doubt very much that I could have achieved the position I'm joining in a few months had I not gone down the degree route. However I realise that I may be in the minority in that respect, judging by what I see on here anyway.

My point was that although some (i.e. the minority) will use their degree as a certificate of entry into some graduate scheme or some other entry level job where the degree is a requirement - most won't and will have to work their way up the career ladder by other means. Sure, for the few people that manage to get on the grad scheme - the degree will have the long lasting effect that you describe but for most people; they won't get on the grad scheme and after three years or so of working - the degree is about as important to employers as your GCSEs are now. In some sense it is like a lottery ticket - a very small proportion will cash it in a way that will set them up for life but most are forced to discard it as worthless and make their way by other means.

Obviously, I am talking about generic academic subjects rather than vocational qualifications but then that is what the majority of people do.

Reply 124

fourdigit

Tooo many posts, but I think no one has said this so I'll say it.

You probably have tried applying, there are many people entering ACCA/CIMA/ACA, etc.

Why? Accounting doesn't need a Accountancy degree anymore.

People are heading to finance/accounting sectors for stable income and reassurance in time of recession.

Of course, getting the experience is difficult if you don't have it.

Most say do this, or do that. In all honesty, you can listen to them but I haven't seen your CV so I can't comment what you lack in.

Most have good this or that, and not that.

That is all i'm going to say.

Reply 125

Clip

Original post by fourdigit

It's only been a few years that accountancy was in any way a graduate career. Up until recently there weren't really such things as accountancy degrees and accountants trained essentially as apprentices. I dare say that large numbers of senior accountants trained that way and it wouldn't surprise me if they have a little sympathy for the non-graduate recruits still.

Reply 126

Bettypratchit

Original post by yashradia

This is just for people who have graduated and are looking for job. How do you deal with the changing process? My life is so rubbish, I sit at home and feel so depressed. I have no friends as i studied in a different city, I always sit on my laptop getting bored and my head hurts and i have got mental illness like anxiety, lack of confidence. Anyone going through similar stage? I hate every second of this time and its so upsetting because i am such a positive person. I do go swimming once a week but even that is turning out to be expensive and yes because i have no job i have no money. I feel so useless and pointless in life :mad:

I understand where you are coming from, but you could try developing on your practical skills more in this day and age you can't always rely on a degree to get you into work. It's more about the contacts you know to get a job, if you try and develop your skills at least you will have one more thing positive to add to your CV. You can do this by volunteering, at least you will be getting out of the house, meeting new people (vital contacts potentially), obviously learning new skills etc. Although yes you probably won't get paid but at least you will be doing something constructive for your future.

Or I know this sounds a bit silly, but have you ever thought about starting up your own business? Maybe something you’re interested in? Depending on what it is you can get grants from charities and other societies to help up with start-up costs etc.

If I cannot get a job after I graduate I will try these things out for myself. :smile:

Reply 127

fourdigit

Original post by Bettypratchit

Erm...do you know the rules and procedures of starting your own business?

Moving on, the reality is that, most can't afford to volunteer. Not because they're not willing to but the volunteering is 3-4months or 6-7 months, either unpaid.

Most jobs these days are local and they require to commute. Commute = money, but where is the money for rent? food? bills? exam fees? student debts?

Baring in mind, we're in recession. by the time you graduated, your competing with people already been hit early with 2-3 years experience than you. It's harsh but its the truth, they'll be likely to be more employable in terms of experience providing they meet other criteria they ask for too.

Yes, you are right, try everything, even through contacts and it's nice to remain optimistic at these times and everyday. For me, too many people are still not see-ing the bigger picture.

All the best with your graduation and employment.

Reply 128

Bettypratchit

Original post by fourdigit

Haha! In fact I do considering I am doing a degree is Business Management, and have done business since secondary school! But I see your point of view- starting up your own business will be difficult and should not be considered lightly. Market research, finance management etc all the way before one does anything on the subject. :smile:

But seriously if anyone is interested in starting up their own business this is a good government backed website which can advise you on what to do etc. http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/home

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 129

M1011

Original post by fourdigit

You make hardly any sense and every post I read from you I disagree with... Just thought I'd let you know that :tongue:

Reply 130

MagicNMedicine

Original post by Bettypratchit

Yes Business Link is a good website and definitely the place to go if you are interested in starting something up.

Personally however I don't agree with the idea that 'everyone can start up a business'. If you have a clear idea and passion for something then go for it but a lot of unemployed graduates best chance is to look for work for someone else rather than messing around trying to start up a business when they have no clue what they are doing, that just wastes time.

I do think graduates should start looking at small businesses and recent start ups in the local area as this is a hidden job market that doesn't go for milkround graduate recruitment, most grads just think in terms of large companies but most job creation comes from smaller businesses.