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Why Europe should thank the US

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Don't trivialize Pearl Harbor or lay the blame on the government. Perhaps it was their fault that the navy weren't better prepared but the fact remains that the Japanese were brutal and killed thousands of American troops despite us being neutral. It was a disgusting, unprovoked attack.

    As has been said multiple times, bombing Japan prevented greater loss of life on both the American and japanese sides.
    Actually, that's not true. My history teacher a few years ago obtained previously-classified documents that were declassified during the Freedom of Information Act that directly show that FDR provoked Japan into attacking the United States so that the people would feel a justification for going to war. The document was valid and in plain letters, and there's proof that the plans laid out in the document actually were set in motion. I'm not saying that the Japanese were in the right by attacking Pearl Harbor, but the act was not unprovoked.

    You do realize that's not the main reason the dropped the bombs, right? It was all 100% political. But, considering you are you, I'm not going to explain myself because it will all fall in deaf, ignorant ears.
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    (Original post by green chica)
    Really dude (i'm assuming you're male)? You're really going to pick a fight over the word "football"? I don't know which one of you two started it, but come on! It's just a word! It's like trunk vs. boot. So long as everyone knows what the other person is talking about, it doesn't matter.
    Bah! it's long standing banter dating back to his posts on the Should England join the US and leave the EU? thread

    (Original post by green chica)
    Of course the American troops came over poorly trained and equipped...they hadn't been preparing for war like those in Europe had before WWI. Not sure why you put that part in there...
    I was putting forward the question of how exactly he thought a poorly trained and equipped army saved Britain and France.


    (Original post by green chica)
    Actually, that's not true. My history teacher a few years ago obtained previously-classified documents that were declassified during the Freedom of Information Act that directly show that FDR provoked Japan into attacking the United States so that the people would feel a justification for going to war. The document was valid and in plain letters, and there's proof that the plans laid out in the document actually were set in motion. I'm not saying that the Japanese were in the right by attacking Pearl Harbor, but the act was not unprovoked.
    Interesting...
    Do you have a link to these documents?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Bah! it's long standing banter dating back to his posts on the Should England join the US and leave the EU? thread

    I was putting forward the question of how exactly he thought a poorly trained and equipped army saved Britain and France.
    Oh, okay. My bad for butting in.

    And, again, my bad for butting in. I should have looked at what he said first before responding to what you said.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Do you have a link to these documents?
    Unfortunately I don't. I really wish I did because I was writing a paper on PH and they would have come in handy. My teacher got them in the mail from the government and had copied them onto one of those transparent pieces of paper that project onto the wall on an overhead, so he didn't get them online. It took him several, and I mean probably five or six years to get cleared to get the papers and work through the bureaucracy, so if you want them it's probably not going to happen, especially if you're not American. I've thought about asking if he could copy them and I could stop by my old school and pick them up, but I don't really give enough of a crap to bother going all the way back to my old school.
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    (Original post by green chica)
    Unfortunately I don't. I really wish I did because I was writing a paper on PH and they would have come in handy. My teacher got them in the mail from the government and had copied them onto one of those transparent pieces of paper that project onto the wall on an overhead, so he didn't get them online. It took him several, and I mean probably five or six years to get cleared to get the papers and work through the bureaucracy, so if you want them it's probably not going to happen, especially if you're not American. I've thought about asking if he could copy them and I could stop by my old school and pick them up, but I don't really give enough of a crap to bother going all the way back to my old school.
    No offense, but some secret documents that apparently prove a government conspiracy, but which you can't even name or provide an internet link to, that apparently took your teacher six years of clearance to get hold of, that you've mentioned on a student internet forum no less...well surely you can see how that sounds?
    What were these 'provocations' FDR authorised that you mentioned?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    No offense, but some secret documents that apparently prove a government conspiracy, but which you can't even name or provide an internet link to, that apparently took your teacher six years of clearance to get hold of, that you've mentioned on a student internet forum no less...well surely you can see how that sounds?
    What were these 'provocations' FDR authorised that you mentioned?
    Yeah, it does sound super-sketchy, but it's the truth. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I probably wouldn't believe me if I were you, but I know what I'm saying is the truth because I saw the copies of the documents with my own eyes.

    I can't remember exactly what they were, but I remember they were either relating to military action or economic hardship for Japan.

    Okay! I actually found something. It isn't the exact document that I'm looking for (the one I'm looking for has FDR's name on it and has a clear list of the exact things the US planned to do to provoke Japan), but this one has a similar list, and if you think about it from Japan's perspective, many of the actions laid out in the list are threatening.

    Here are copies of declassified documents
    Skip down to section 9 for the part most specific to what I'm talking about.

    I found the link to the above on this page, and it gives more information. I would defo read this in its entirety if I were you.

    Again, you can choose to either believe this information or not, but those documents are real and provide backing for what I've said.
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    (Original post by green chica)
    Yeah, it does sound super-sketchy, but it's the truth. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I probably wouldn't believe me if I were you, but I know what I'm saying is the truth because I saw the copies of the documents with my own eyes.

    I can't remember exactly what they were, but I remember they were either relating to military action or economic hardship for Japan.

    Okay! I actually found something. It isn't the exact document that I'm looking for (the one I'm looking for has FDR's name on it and has a clear list of the exact things the US planned to do to provoke Japan), but this one has a similar list, and if you think about it from Japan's perspective, many of the actions laid out in the list are threatening.

    Here are copies of declassified documents
    Skip down to section 9 for the part most specific to what I'm talking about.

    I found the link to the above on this page, and it gives more information. I would defo read this in its entirety if I were you.

    Again, you can choose to either believe this information or not, but those documents are real and provide backing for what I've said.
    This is your great conspiracy? That in the midst of global turmoil and war, the United States looked to consilodate it's position in the Pacific and South East Asia? That the United States was actively seeking to support it's de facto ally the UK by take over responsibility of the Pacific? That the United States was supporting the Chinese?
    These are widely known facts.

    (Original post by green chica)
    and if you think about it from Japan's perspective, many of the actions laid out in the list are threatening.
    This is the key statement really. If you think about it from America's perspective, Japan was a war mongering nutcase that was ravaging through Asia and was leaning heavily towards Germany. The Japanese government had made little effort to hide their disdain of westerners and their intentions to 'liberate' Asia. Since America had alreadly declared that it would defend the Dutch and British in the event of an attack, there was no way Japan could have ever attacked them without attacking America. What do you expect the US government to have done? Sat on their arses twiddling their thumbs?
    What exactly is the conspiracy here? What exactly here justifies the Pearl Harbor attack in your mind?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    This is your great conspiracy? That in the midst of global turmoil and war, the United States looked to consilodate it's position in the Pacific and South East Asia? That the United States was actively seeking to support it's de facto ally the UK by take over responsibility of the Pacific? That the United States was supporting the Chinese?
    These are widely known facts.

    This is the key statement really. If you think about it from America's perspective, Japan was a war mongering nutcase that was ravaging through Asia and was leaning heavily towards Germany. The Japanese government had made little effort to hide their disdain of westerners and their intentions to 'liberate' Asia. Since America had alreadly declared that it would defend the Dutch and British in the event of an attack, there was no way Japan could have ever attacked them without attacking America. What do you expect the US government to have done? Sat on their arses twiddling their thumbs?
    What exactly is the conspiracy here? What exactly here justifies the Pearl Harbor attack in your mind?
    You just put words into my mouth with the last sentence. Look back at my posts: I never said the attacks on Pearl Harbor were justified. I just said they were provoked.

    The "conspiracy" (which I don't think it should be considered a conspiracy because it has proven to be factual) is that the United States government was not just sitting by innocently in Pearl Harbor. They were trying to provoke Japan into attacking them so that in the eyes of the voters, joining in on WWII would be justified. IDK what you guys are taught in the UK, but over here most of us are taught that the government was completely innocent and caught off-guards, so it is considered a conspiracy by many in the US. Not sure what you're getting upset about? I've not said anything that I haven't backed up...

    And, honestly, the government didn't really give a **** about Japan. They were interested in Germany. It was the American people who, after Pearl Harbor, were most interested in the War in the Pacific. The government was more worried about the war Africa and Europe. They just used Japan as a means to an end.
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    Not sure why the OP assumes France and Britian didn't thank the US to some degree.

    Sure not everyone in England likes the idea the U.S helped us out, and note the distinction; they aided us, never did they literally hand hold us to victory.

    However without Russian invasion it's arguable we would have never defeated Nazi Germany and Axis forces with the U.S, it's not like it's depicted on the big screen; American troops killing 20 Nazi soldiers for every one, the U.S suffered huge losses against an already widespread and weakened Germany.

    So yes, you were thanked for what aid you gave us during the war, however don't mistake that casual truth for some ego boost of you saving us; You did not.
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    You may have 'helped' in the second world war but you couldn't win 'Nam, could you?

    The likelihood is the war's outcome would have been the same with or without American influence.

    Yes because the American hunt for oil, oops I mean the Iraq and Afganistan wars, have really helped so many British families (not to mention those from other nations.) Yes USA we're so very thankful for your role in 'helping' us.
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    Argh. Spelling error thanks to touch screen. Afghanistan.
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    Perhaps it is true that the atomic bombs were dropped as a warning of the power of the USA to the Russians, perhaps it isn't. Perhaps the American executive decided an invasion of Japan would cost too many lives on either side, perhaps they didn't. What is done is done. Alea iacta est.
    However I believe the Americans did help Europe after WW2, with the Marshall Plan, which helped stimulate economic recovery to the worn-torn continent.
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    (Original post by green chica)
    You just put words into my mouth with the last sentence. Look back at my posts: I never said the attacks on Pearl Harbor were justified. I just said they were provoked.
    Funny how the Japanese government has never collaborated this. They have said themselves that the sole reason for the attack on Pearl Harbor was as a pre-emptive strike, as they failed to see how they could attack the British and Dutch colonies without drawing America into the war. It was not in any way retaliation.

    (Original post by green chica)
    The "conspiracy" (which I don't think it should be considered a conspiracy because it has proven to be factual) is that the United States government was not just sitting by innocently in Pearl Harbor. They were trying to provoke Japan into attacking them so that in the eyes of the voters, joining in on WWII would be justified.
    They were taking measures to secure their interests in the Pacific and South East Asia. IF those measures led to war, then so be it. However none of the individual measures that the US took against Japan, considering what Japan was doing at the time, were justifable provocation for an attack.

    (Original post by green chica)
    IDK what you guys are taught in the UK, but over here most of us are taught that the government was completely innocent and caught off-guards, so it is considered a conspiracy by many in the US. Not sure what you're getting upset about? I've not said anything that I haven't backed up...
    The US government were aware that Japan was looking to strike, they simply didn't no the time or the place. They were caught off-guard on December 7th. I can see no reason for you to say that the attack was provoked than for you to want to lay blame for the attack on the United States government.

    (Original post by green chica)
    And, honestly, the government didn't really give a **** about Japan.
    They gave so little a ****, that they funded the Chinese, that they had intelligence memos drawn up about them, that they made mutual defence pacts with the UK and Netherlands? Yeah, sounds exactly like not giving a ****. :rolleyes:

    (Original post by green chica)
    They were interested in Germany. It was the American people who, after Pearl Harbor, were most interested in the War in the Pacific. The government was more worried about the war Africa and Europe. They just used Japan as a means to an end.
    Means to an end? What nonsense is this?

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