The Libertarian Society of TSR.

He shouldn't even have been jailed.

Irrespective of how offensive his views were, jailing him denies him his human rights to freedom of expression. There should be few limits to freedom of speech in a libertarian society.

The Libertarian Alliance have released a press release on the issue - http://www.libertarian.co.uk/news/nr035.htm

Reply 43

Beekeeper

OP

13

Thanks for that article, it's quite good. Still, i'm in split minds over this particular issue, there is evidence of specific instructions given to worshippers to murder other citizens, I think this needs to be dealed with a bit differently to the usual stuff we hear from groups in society.

At the same time, I agree that it is wrong to convict somebody of their conscience, and he hasn't physically murdered anybody himself.

As you say zooropa, there should be as few limits on freedom of speech as possible, but you've got to decide where to draw the line. When you get in a position where you are highly respected in a community, and you use your authority to instruct followers to murder fellow citizens, I think the law needs to be enforced propery before these words lead directly to violence and murder.
Being dead restricts ones liberties more than anything else! :rolleyes:

Reply 44

_jackofdiamonds

10

Dude, isn't Libertarianism just anarchy for rich people?

Reply 45

What answer are you expecting we give to that?

"Well, actually yes. Hurrah."

In an anarchist society, freedom would be completely limited in practise even if absolute in theory. In a libertarian society, we find a happy medium and a balance between competing rights of individuals.

Reply 46

_jackofdiamonds

Dude, isn't Libertarianism just anarchy for rich people?

Not really. Libertarianism is about self-ownership and the reduction of force from human affairs.

And libertarians don't care only about the rich. Welfare doesn't help people from poverty and the minimum wage restricts people poor people from the job market.
For that reason, welfare and the minimum wage should be abolished.

Reply 47

Jangliss

5

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/008658.html

Does anyone know of some good libertarian blogs. I thought samizdata was a good one, but the above post shows that it's obviously nuts.

Shouldn't Abu Hamza be able to encourage violence from his own gated community, by your standards?

Reply 48

Shouldn't Abu Hamza be able to encourage violence from his own gated community, by your standards?

Why not? It's his property, so he gets to set the rules for his own property.

Reply 49

Beekeeper

OP

13

Everybody requires basic security, and if somebody was stood on whatever land explicitly inciting murder then I would probably support some kind of intervention...

The vast majority of libertarians believe in freedom, provided it does not infringe on the freedoms of others.
Allowing somebody to incite mass murder would be quite a serious infringement on the civil liberties of others, and one which I do not believe should be tolerated.

As for 'encouraging violence', i'm afraid you'll have to be a little more specific.

Reply 50

Beekeeper

OP

13

Just out of interest, does anyone know which of the two main U.S. Parties libertarians are more likely to support?

Both Parties come across interventionalist socially, and they both seem to share a similar ground when it comes to the economy, give or take one of two bits of policy...

I honestly have no idea, and i've been looking through various American sites doing a little reasearch, including the CATO institute (one of the more reputable libertarian interest groups), and they seem to stand in the middle and criticise both Parties.

An example:

"Unfortunately, President Bush seems to have confused politics with compassion. As such, he looks like a big government conservative, a breed that increasingly dominates the Republican Party.

"...Yet Mr. Bush wants to do more than simply encourage Americans to be compassionate people and good citizens. He wants the federal government to finance and organize their activities.

"...And the president is a piker compared to some. Sens. John McCain, Arizona Republican, and Evan Bayh, Indiana Democrat, would quintuple the size of AmeriCorps alone. A few commentators even propose conscripting 4 million 18-year-olds into some form of government "service.""
Clicky

Have libertarians ever taken a leaning to one specific Party?

Reply 51

The 'third party' of US politics is the Libertarian Party, so I'd imagine they'd go for that.

If they were leaning towards anything, I imagine they'd give in to the temptations of the (slightly more) right and go for the Republican Party. I believe they pay lip service to Libertarian ideals on occasion.

Reply 52

Jangliss

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/008658.html

Does anyone know of some good libertarian blogs. I thought samizdata was a good one, but the above post shows that it's obviously nuts.

I don't think it's that far off the mark.

Personally I am of the opinion that in order to get state benefits, a healthy but out of work individual should be forced to do some sort of community service or work for charity.

The present position of handing out money for nothing is economically dangerous, unhealthy for the recipients and bloody idiotic.

Reply 53

cuth

1

Both american parties are too fat for me, but believe i would vote for the republicans. I think libertarians tend to fall an the right, because many of us tend to prize economic liberty over social liberty.
I think along these lines, although im no fan of mr bush's social authoritarianism.

In terms of that apparently nesscesarry evil, tax, would most libertarians support a flat rate or a progressive rate? (ideally none at all I assume)

Reply 54

Beekeeper

Just out of interest, does anyone know which of the two main U.S. Parties libertarians are more likely to support?

Both Parties come across interventionalist socially, and they both seem to share a similar ground when it comes to the economy, give or take one of two bits of policy...

I honestly have no idea, and i've been looking through various American sites doing a little reasearch, including the CATO institute (one of the more reputable libertarian interest groups), and they seem to stand in the middle and criticise both Parties.

An example:

"Unfortunately, President Bush seems to have confused politics with compassion. As such, he looks like a big government conservative, a breed that increasingly dominates the Republican Party.

"...Yet Mr. Bush wants to do more than simply encourage Americans to be compassionate people and good citizens. He wants the federal government to finance and organize their activities.

"...And the president is a piker compared to some. Sens. John McCain, Arizona Republican, and Evan Bayh, Indiana Democrat, would quintuple the size of AmeriCorps alone. A few commentators even propose conscripting 4 million 18-year-olds into some form of government "service.""
Clicky

Have libertarians ever taken a leaning to one specific Party?

Neither really.

But both the Democrats and Republicans have libertarian factions. Ron Paul is a prominent Republican Congressman who is a libertarian.

Reply 55

Did anyone hear that Harry Browne died last week? He'll be greatly missed.

Reply 56

Hobbesian

3

Sorry i am a newbie to this kind of stuff, however can anyone give me any examples of a totaly libertarian state?

Reply 57

Yes, look at yourself.

Did you force anyone to be a member of this site? Or force your friends to be your friends? Or force someone to be your girlfriend/boyfriend?

Most normally functioning people in society don't get things via force. People generally do get things done through voluntary co-operation. So libertarian values aren't as radical as they seem.

Reply 58