Alleged fare evading teen chucked off the train
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Original post by Rant
I did back the London Riots. I would have taken an active part in inciting them, but the police state frowns upon that kind of thing.
Police state? Britain in 2011? That reminds me of the masked protesters I saw two Wednesdays ago waving a placard of Cameron with a Hitleresque moustache added by way of permanent marker. The same sophomoric exaggeration.
I am no big-state lover. I don't agree with some of the reactions to crime and disorder that infringe significantly on everyone's liberty. For example, I think that CCTV should be rationed in town centres and not be allowed in schools, hospitals and other places with an expectation of privacy. Other powers like the ability to jail somebody who refuses to give up their encryption keys if the police suspect them of a crime and cannot decrypt their files don't sit easily with me, but if you think about it, it's just like any other form of obstruction of justice. Resisting a warranted police search of your house would get you into trouble (and wouldn't work once the riot gear and door-breaking equipment came out), so the same must apply to electronic evidence.
And are you surprised that the State wants to stop people from thieving property, throwing missiles at the officers brave enough to intervene, starting potentially lethal fires and barricading roads that are intended for public access?
Original post by L i b
It was the middle of the night in relatively out-of-the-way Scotland. Train stations are unmanned at that time of day, and the British Transport Police (who, incidentally, are a volunteer force who don't get paid) certainly aren't available in those stations - and don't have the resources to sort out fare evasion.
You're caught, you get put off the train.
No he couldn't. For one, he's in Scotland - where he cannot 'press charges' or indeed have someone prosecuted for GBH, a crime completely unknown to Scots law.
The force used to toss him off the train was perfectly reasonable and perfectly legal. So kindly take your completely uninformed pseudolawyering elsewhere.
You're caught, you get put off the train.
No he couldn't. For one, he's in Scotland - where he cannot 'press charges' or indeed have someone prosecuted for GBH, a crime completely unknown to Scots law.
The force used to toss him off the train was perfectly reasonable and perfectly legal. So kindly take your completely uninformed pseudolawyering elsewhere.
Sorry, I forgot he was in Scotland. You probably only get arrested for GBH there if you stick a chainsaw through someone's head.
****ing hell, they don't mess about in Scotland!
Original post by kopite493
that wasnt the ticket inspector dude it was a random person on the train
A random person who was enforcing the law. A half way decent lawyer should be able to get him off any charges the kid might try to press. Espcially if it goes to a jury.
Original post by AlmostChicGeek
Okay. Get off your Laptop/computer right now. And chuck your phone, bed, tv, ipod etc in the bin too.
Stop being idiotic.
Stop being idiotic.
What makes you think I'm using my own computer? Or, indeed, own any of those things?
Original post by JohnC2211
Reasonable Force A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of: self-defence; or defence of another; or defence of property; or prevention of crime; or lawful arrest.
Fare dodging is illegal.
Fare dodging is illegal.
Edit: I was wrong ignore my stupidity.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Rant
Sorry, I forgot he was in Scotland. You probably only get arrested for GBH there if you stick a chainsaw through someone's head.
Yeah, that is exactly what happens in Scotland.
You are so ignorant and silly it is unbelievable.
Hmm, not wanting to take the kids side here, and righly so, he shouldn't have tried to get on the train without the proper ticket, but who is to say the kid didn't have the money to buy a ticket.
In this situation, surely it is more reasonable to let him finish the journey, and have the people at the appropriate station deal with him, rather than him being lost in some place, without money?... This way, you are also not delaying the other people as much.
I'm pretty sure at least in England, the inspector has to give you this right. doesn't he?... not sure about scotland though.
In this situation, surely it is more reasonable to let him finish the journey, and have the people at the appropriate station deal with him, rather than him being lost in some place, without money?... This way, you are also not delaying the other people as much.
I'm pretty sure at least in England, the inspector has to give you this right. doesn't he?... not sure about scotland though.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Rant
What makes you think I'm using my own computer? Or, indeed, own any of those things?
Because I feel that if you can access a computer you have a residence of some kind, and at least own a bed.
Are you telling me that you don't have a bed?
Don't feed the troll guys.
Original post by Quoi?
Wrong actually, fare dodging is unlawful not illegal, it is a civil offence not a criminal one. Reasonable force in this case does not come into it. The conductor has no power to detain or at all touch the boy, only the police have that. As far as I can see, the man getting up and touching the boy it makes it a criminal matter, common assault I would imagine (although I'll probably be corrected). The boy could take legal action.
However, despite all this I think the little fcuker deserved it and am glad he got thrown off
However, despite all this I think the little fcuker deserved it and am glad he got thrown off
Do you know for sure that Scots law is different on this? It's criminal in England and Wales- the Penalty Fare of £20 is a civil measure but prosecution is also an option, complete with criminal record as signposted at all large stations, and BTP say they have the right to detain anyone who they believe is about to complete their journey without a ticket, as it is making off without payment, a crime.
Until the 1970s you would have been right. Not paying a restaurant or hotel bill, drive-offs at the petrol station, jumping out of a cab without paying the fare etc were civil matters due to a technicality over what "appropriation" was and when it took place. The criminal law was changed with the '78 Theft Act so they could be dealt with straightforwardly by the police and the criminal Bench.
Original post by ScheduleII
Do you know for sure that Scots law is different on this? It's criminal in England and Wales- the Penalty Fare of £20 is a civil measure but prosecution is also an option, complete with criminal record as signposted at all large stations, and BTP say they have the right to detain anyone who they believe is about to complete their journey without a ticket, as it is making off without payment, a crime.
.
.
Detain but not throw off the train. Surely you have to let them finish their journey and then hand them in to the station security when they arrive.
Original post by ScheduleII
Do you know for sure that Scots law is different on this? It's criminal in England and Wales- the Penalty Fare of £20 is a civil measure but prosecution is also an option, complete with criminal record as signposted at all large stations, and BTP say they have the right to detain anyone who they believe is about to complete their journey without a ticket, as it is making off without payment, a crime.
Until the 1970s you would have been right. Not paying a restaurant or hotel bill, drive-offs at the petrol station, jumping out of a cab without paying the fare etc were civil matters due to a technicality over what "appropriation" was and when it took place. The criminal law was changed with the '78 Theft Act so they could be dealt with straightforwardly by the police and the criminal Bench.
Until the 1970s you would have been right. Not paying a restaurant or hotel bill, drive-offs at the petrol station, jumping out of a cab without paying the fare etc were civil matters due to a technicality over what "appropriation" was and when it took place. The criminal law was changed with the '78 Theft Act so they could be dealt with straightforwardly by the police and the criminal Bench.
Apologies, I stand corrected It seems. I bow to your superior knowledge :P
The bit about the conductor not being able to detain him I know is correct. (Hopefully :P)
Original post by Rant
Trains should be free. That guy's gonna get shanked one day if he carries on like that. Who the hell does he think he is? Needs to mind his own business.
Original post by Rant
How does he know the train company haven't screwed the guy (as they usually do)? I've seen doddering old ladies forced to pay big fines for not having the right railcard/ticket/being unable to get on the right train because the company cancelled...
People who side with corporations make me sick.
People who side with corporations make me sick.
The trains are a service, you want to use it, you pay for it. Just wait until you get your own place and you're forced to pay taxes and certain bills, things which, much more arguably, should be free.
Original post by amime
Hmm, not wanting to take the kids side here, and righly so, he shouldn't have tried to get on the train without the proper ticket, but who is to say the kid didn't have the money to buy a ticket.
In this situation, surely it is more reasonable to let him finish the journey, and have the people at the appropriate station deal with him, rather than him being lost in some place, without money?... This way, you are also not delaying the other people as much.
I'm pretty sure at least in England, the inspector has to give you this right. doesn't he?... not sure about scotland though.
In this situation, surely it is more reasonable to let him finish the journey, and have the people at the appropriate station deal with him, rather than him being lost in some place, without money?... This way, you are also not delaying the other people as much.
I'm pretty sure at least in England, the inspector has to give you this right. doesn't he?... not sure about scotland though.
Not all stations have barriers in scotland, so if he doesn't pay on the train, he wont pay full stop.
Original post by L i b
British Transport Police (who, incidentally, are a volunteer force who don't get paid)
They are not a volunteer force. They are constituted differently from forces such as Strathclyde or Lothian and Borders, but they are not voluntary. They all hold the office of Constable and are paid (unless they are a member of the BTP's Special Constabulary). Starting salary for a BTP Constable is £22,680 rising to £25,962 upon completion of initial training. BTP currently have around 2,750 Police Officers, supported by 250 Special Constables, 210 PCSOs and 1000 support staff (figures taken from the BTP and BTP recruitment websites).
They are only based at major stations. However, any Constable can enforce their powers and duties on the railway and regional forces will attend incidents at stations within their locality where the BTP cannot attend. For example, BTP currently has no firearms capability and would require regional forces to deploy firearms officers in situations that require them (although permisison has been granted for them to develop firearms capability and they are in the process of doing so).
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Rant
How does he know the train company haven't screwed the guy (as they usually do)? I've seen doddering old ladies forced to pay big fines for not having the right railcard/ticket/being unable to get on the right train because the company cancelled...
People who side with corporations make me sick.
People who side with corporations make me sick.
This happened to my grandma. She bought a ticket to Birmingham in first class on virgin trains as she always does using her old folks rail card at the station in advance but assumed that because shed shown her railcard to buy the ticket she didn't need it with her (it helps that the NRCoC are nowhere to be seen (offline at least)) but she was forced to stand up in standard for most of the journey because she did'nt have the railcard with her. She wrote a letter of complaint to Virgin Trains and received a full refund and an apology.
He got moved.
If all that happened if you get caught without a ticket is that you got kicked off the train I would never pay. If I was the kid I would of just got off the train and got another one. There wasn't even any talk of a fine.
If all that happened if you get caught without a ticket is that you got kicked off the train I would never pay. If I was the kid I would of just got off the train and got another one. There wasn't even any talk of a fine.
Personally, I find myself in an odd situation.
As someone who generally is against people taking the law into their own hands, I would like to see the guy at least cautioned for it.
However, as someone who spends an awful lot of money travelling by train, I get annoyed at those who don't pay.
And tbh, forcing someone to get off the train if they will not buy a valid ticket is something that is quite common. Obviously not having someone literally pick them up, but asking them and being quite threatening about it usually works. If that doesn't, the next call is often the BTP. But as already mentioned, that isn't always an option. It depends on the location and such. Also, guards often are unwilling to do this because it will delay the train by a fair bit (which they then have to explain to their manager).
The only reason she got that was because she was old.
The rules are very clear. You need to carry the railcard with you on your journey.
Sometimes guards will show discretion. I have seen someone forget their railcard and managed to get their parents to text them a photo of it, the guard accepted it though did say some other staff wouldn't have. I have also seen guards take different attitudes to what the person should pay. Technically if you do not have your railcard then you do not have a valid ticket, and so should be made to buy a new ticket (at the full anytime single rate). But some guards will just charge you an excess (the difference between what you paid and the full cost).
You don't actually need to have the railcard on your to buy the ticket btw.
And yes, the NRCoC are available at most manned stations, you just have to ask (and your mileage may vary on how helpful the staff are).
As someone who generally is against people taking the law into their own hands, I would like to see the guy at least cautioned for it.
However, as someone who spends an awful lot of money travelling by train, I get annoyed at those who don't pay.
And tbh, forcing someone to get off the train if they will not buy a valid ticket is something that is quite common. Obviously not having someone literally pick them up, but asking them and being quite threatening about it usually works. If that doesn't, the next call is often the BTP. But as already mentioned, that isn't always an option. It depends on the location and such. Also, guards often are unwilling to do this because it will delay the train by a fair bit (which they then have to explain to their manager).
Original post by orionmoo
This happened to my grandma. She bought a ticket to Birmingham in first class on virgin trains as she always does using her old folks rail card at the station in advance but assumed that because shed shown her railcard to buy the ticket she didn't need it with her (it helps that the NRCoC are nowhere to be seen (offline at least)) but she was forced to stand up in standard for most of the journey because she did'nt have the railcard with her. She wrote a letter of complaint to Virgin Trains and received a full refund and an apology.
The only reason she got that was because she was old.
The rules are very clear. You need to carry the railcard with you on your journey.
Sometimes guards will show discretion. I have seen someone forget their railcard and managed to get their parents to text them a photo of it, the guard accepted it though did say some other staff wouldn't have. I have also seen guards take different attitudes to what the person should pay. Technically if you do not have your railcard then you do not have a valid ticket, and so should be made to buy a new ticket (at the full anytime single rate). But some guards will just charge you an excess (the difference between what you paid and the full cost).
You don't actually need to have the railcard on your to buy the ticket btw.
And yes, the NRCoC are available at most manned stations, you just have to ask (and your mileage may vary on how helpful the staff are).
(edited 12 years ago)
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