[Pearl Lake]

(Original post by ss4adib)
Sorry but I'm just sick and tired of people bashing Islam for the slightest of things. It's like they're all against us. Especially that ideas/ideals-4-life or whoever he is. I hate him to bits even though I've no clue who he is.

How was I bashing Islam? I'm just saying that any Qu'ran bought will be translated somewhat from the original as it's in a different language. Old arabic ≠ new arabic

No need to be so ******* rude.

[TheHuman]

(Original post by Pearl Lake)
How was I bashing Islam? I'm just saying that any Qu'ran bought will be translated somewhat from the original as it's in a different language. Old arabic ≠ new arabic

No need to be so ******* rude.

Just to clarify, there is no such thing as Old Arabic and New Arabic.
There is only Arabic, the Qur'an has a vocabulary of Classical Arabic, that today is mostly only used for writing, different Arab countries have different dialects and classical Arabic is pretty much only used in a professional setting, i.e. News on TV, in Writing, etc.
This Classical Arabic is virtually the same as it was 1400 years ago. There has no translation been going on in providing the Qur'an. It was not written in a different Arabic than is today. They are the same words that have been around 1400 years ago.
Have a read of this, then come back if you have any questions.
http://www.islamic-life.com/other-re...uran-preserved

[ss4adib]

(Original post by Pearl Lake)
How was I bashing Islam? I'm just saying that any Qu'ran bought will be translated somewhat from the original as it's in a different language. Old arabic ≠ new arabic

No need to be so ******* rude.

Calm down dude I already admitted that its my mistake for not understanding what you were talking about. I thought you were talking about the qurans themselves not the translations. Sorry for being an ****

[mariachi]

(Original post by boba)
well its possible that it will have a mistake such as a misprint or something but I'm fairly certain all arabic ones are the same and differences in other language ones are down to translation

no

in Arabic, usually you will find a Quran in the Hafs text, but in North Africa the Warsh text is more common, while there exist still the ad-Duri text in Sudan, the Qalun in Qatar and Tunisia and the Hisham in Yemen. Quite a few other were available in the past, but are not current anymore.

the differences are mostly pronounciation differences, but may also involve words being in the singular instead of the plural form, the verb being passive instead of active etc etc

for a comprehensive table, have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27...rrant_readings

[amerzeb]

i have a couple of question. Is it allowed to make dua after congregation? and is it allowed to wipe your hand on your face when completing the dua.

[boba]

(Original post by mariachi)
no

in Arabic, usually you will find a Quran in the Hafs text, but in North Africa the Warsh text is more common, while there exist still the ad-Duri text in Sudan, the Qalun in Qatar and Tunisia and the Hisham in Yemen. Quite a few other were available in the past, but are not current anymore.

the differences are mostly pronounciation differences, but may also involve words being in the singular instead of the plural form, the verb being passive instead of active etc etc

for a comprehensive table, have a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27...rrant_readings

fair enough I was wrong

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by boba)
fair enough I was wrong

Just incase you don't know, the Prophet(pbuh) approved of these differences in variant text readings. I believe there's 7 of them.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Just incase you don't know, the Prophet(pbuh) approved of these differences in variant text readings. I believe there's 7 of them.

no, that's the 7 ahruf (revelations)

the different texts I mentioned (Warsh, Hafs) etc are not different ahrufs, but riwayas (transmissions) from different qiraat (recitations) of the same harf (the recitation in the language of the Quraysh)

Perhaps this will explain it to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27..._and_Qira.27at

The six other ahrufs were destroyed by Uthman, and only the harf according to the Quraysh subsisted

[boba]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Just incase you don't know, the Prophet(pbuh) approved of these differences in variant text readings. I believe there's 7 of them.

how come?

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by boba)
how come?

The reason for this was that the dialects of the classic Arabic language where many and spread all over Arabia. The Arabs, being a largely illiterate nation, had no standard written form of the language; rather they just had their slightly varying dialects. Had the revelation been just on the Qurayshi dialect that would have stumped the spread of Islam in the Arabian Peninsula as many Arabs would find it cumbersome to adjust to a usage of Arabic other than their own.

Furthermore, as the Arabs were challenged to produce the like of the Qur'an, it made sense that the revelation should encompass the varying usages of the Arabs so that the whole of Arabia could be challenged and defeated. Therefore, it is safe to say, that the seven ahruf were the reason for the fast spread of Islam throughout Arabia, as each tribe was able to recite the Qur'an in a fashion that suited them.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=12421&CATE=1

Some hadiths -

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 513:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel recited the Qur'an to me in one way. Then I requested him (to read it in another way), and continued asking him to recite it in other ways, and he recited it in several ways till he ultimately recited it in seven different ways."

Book 004, Number 1785:
Ibn 'Abbas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Gabriel taught me to recite in one style. I replied to him and kept asking him to give more (styles), till he reached seven modes (of recitation). Ibn Shibab said: It has reached me that these seven styles are essentially one, not differing about what is permitted and what is forbidden.

Book 004, Number 1787:
He (the Holy Prophet) said to me: Ubayy. a message was sent to me to recite the Qur'an in one dialect, and I replied: Make (things) easy for my people. It was conveyed to me for the second time that it should be recited in two dialects. I again replied to him: Make affairs easy for my people. It was again conveyed to me for the third time to recite in seven dialects And (I was further told): You have got a seeking for every reply that I sent you, which you should seek from Me. I said: O Allah! forgive my people, forgive my people, and I have deferred the third one for the day on which the entire creation will turn to me, including even Ibrahim (peace be upon him) (for intercession).

(Original post by mariachi)
no, that's the 7 ahruf (revelations)

the different texts I mentioned (Warsh, Hafs) etc are not different ahrufs, but riwayas (transmissions) from different qiraat (recitations) of the same harf (the recitation in the language of the Quraysh)

Perhaps this will explain it to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27..._and_Qira.27at

The six other ahrufs were destroyed by Uthman, and only the harf according to the Quraysh subsisted

I would suggest you read this (skip to "Hafs & Warsh Qirâ'ât: Are They Different Versions Of The Qur'an?") -

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...raat/hafs.html

Summary -

• There is only one Qur'an,
• The differences in recitation are divinely revealed, not invented by humans
• The indisputable conclusion that the Qur'an was not tampered with.

And not rely on the rubbish AI feeds you.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)

I would suggest you read this (skip to "Hafs & Warsh Qirâ'ât: Are They Different Versions Of The Qur'an?") -

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...raat/hafs.html

Islamic awareness confirms what I posted. From http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...at/hafs.html#2

"Qirâ'ât is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode"

You, on the other hand, confused qiraat and ahruf, and this is why, when I mentioned the differences between Warsh, Hafs etc , you posted

(Original post by Perseveranze)
"Just incase you don't know, the Prophet(pbuh) approved of these differences in variant text readings. I believe there's 7 of them".

So, you didn't know that only one harf (harf is the singular of ahruf) still subsists, and this is the Quraysh harf. The other ahruf were destroyed by Uthman.

Repeat with me, once again : the differences between the various riwayas of qiraat (transmissions of recitations) such as Warsh, Hafs, ad-Duri etc have nothing to do with the seven ahruf. They all derive from the Quraysh harf.

Tsk, tsk.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
[*]There is only one Qur'an,[*][*] The differences in recitation are divinely revealed, not invented by humans[*][*] The indisputable conclusion that the Qur'an was not tampered with. [/LIST].

perhaps, if you repeat that 2 million times, people will believe you

[mariachi]

Ok, I will now fight the "Islamic" corner (this is sorely needed)

According to ahadith, Muhammed authenticated the Quran in seven "revelations" (ahruf). Uthman burned six of them, leaving one (the Quraysh harf)

Then, this harf was recited by different qurra (reciters or readers). The most notable are the 10 readers (the "seven+plus three") whose list you can find on wikipedia, but other still are attested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27..._and_Qira.27at

Each of these qiraat (readings) have reached us through two different "transmissions" (riwayas) with a chain of transmission similar somehow to the isnad (chain of transmission) of a hadith.

And this is the Islamic claim to authenticity : we have, therefore, 20 different texts of the Quran with some solid claim to authenticity (10 different qiraat in two different riwaya each) plus some dubious ones.

As I said, there are differences among these texts (anyone can notice them by comparing a Hafs and a Warsh Quran, easily available). Most differences have no significance, but some do : e.g. a singular for a plural, an active verb for a passive.

I hope this helps.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by mariachi)
Islamic awareness confirms what I posted. From http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...at/hafs.html#2

"Qirâ'ât is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode"

Yes, they were approved by the Prophet(pbuh), and Uthmaan(ra) reduced it to one due to there being no need for it -

“The seven ahruf were revealed by Allaah during the time of the Prophet (PBUH) to facilitate the memorisation of the Qur’aan, since the dialects of the Arabs were many. This facilitation (i.e., the ahruf) was not necessary to preserve, and eventually there was no need of it. In fact, it became the cause of dissension amongst the Muslims, as those people new to Islaam began arguing over the differences in the recitation of the Qur’aan. Therefore, Allaah inspired 403 ‘Uthmaan to discard the other six ahruf and collect the Qur’aan in one harf, so that the ummah would be united in its recitation. The Companions agreed to this action of his, and the agreement of the Companions is binding on the ummah.”

Uthman(ra) as you said, reduced it to the Qureysh dialect, which is the dialect the Prophet(pbuh) himself spoke.

(Original post by mariachi)
Repeat with me, once again : the differences between the various riwayas of qiraat (transmissions of recitations) such as Warsh, Hafs, ad-Duri etc have nothing to do with the seven ahruf. They all derive from the Quraysh harf.

Tsk, tsk.

Your implication though was that the hafs/warsh meant that Muslims have a Quran' version that wasn't revealed to or approved by the Prophet(pbuh).

Which is why I had to correct you with the link. Unless that wasn't your implication, then there's nothing to discuss about.

The 10 Qiraats (7 being the most authentic) all came from the Prophet(pbuh)'s mouth.

(Original post by mariachi)
Ok, I will now fight the "Islamic" corner (this is sorely needed)

According to ahadith, Muhammed authenticated the Quran in seven "revelations" (ahruf). Uthman burned six of them, leaving one (the Quraysh harf)

Then, this harf was recited by different qurra (reciters or readers). The most notable are the 10 readers (the "seven+plus three") whose list you can find on wikipedia, but other still are attested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27..._and_Qira.27at

Each of these qiraat (readings) have reached us through two different "transmissions" (riwayas) with a chain of transmission similar somehow to the isnad (chain of transmission) of a hadith.

And this is the Islamic claim to authenticity : we have, therefore, 20 different texts of the Quran with some solid claim to authenticity (10 different qiraat in two different riwaya each) plus some dubious ones.

As I said, there are differences among these texts (anyone can notice them by comparing a Hafs and a Warsh Quran, easily available). Most differences have no significance, but some do : e.g. a singular for a plural, an active verb for a passive.

I hope this helps.

That makes little difference to the meaning of the aya, so I don't get what point you're trying to make.

And I wouldn't take wiki as a source of information.

[mariachi]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Your implication though was that the hafs/warsh meant that Muslims have a Quran' version that wasn't revealed to or approved by the Prophet(pbuh).

Which is why I had to correct you with the link. Unless that wasn't your implication, then there's nothing to discuss about.

you corrected nothing at all. You made a confusion between ahruf and qirra/riwaya, and I corrected you.

The Hafs/Warsh/ad-Duri etc texts were not revealed to Muhammad. The 7 ahruf were revealed, but only one subsists (harf of Quraysh).

You can consider that the various riwayas/qiraat (Hafs/Warsh/ad-Duri etc) were "approved" by Muhammad or not, depending from the validity you attribute to their chain of transmission, which is alleged to reach back to Muhammad. While Hafs, Warsh etc (the 14) are generally considered as "approved" by most scholars, there are 6 (ibn Wirdan, Ibn Jummaz etc) which are considered as slightly less "authentic" and 4 other which are even more "doubtful" (e.g. riwayas Albuzzi and ibn Shannabudh, from qiraat of Muhammad ibn Muhaisin)

That makes little difference to the meaning of the aya, so I don't get what point you're trying to make.

if for you a singular is the same as a plural, and an active verb the same as a passive, then you don't need to worry

my point is this: it is simply not true that all Quran copies are word for word, letter for letter identical, as people repeat day in , day out

And I wouldn't take wiki as a source of information.

if you had read the wiki page I quoted, you would have noted it entirely agrees with Islamic-awareness

Best

[mariachi]

Then, we have the issue of the non-Uthmanic mushafs (manuscripts)- mainly Ibn Masud and Ubay). These readings do not follow the Uthmanic rasm (consonantical text)

Their presence is attested by some scholars as late as the 10th century, but it was thought they had not survived.

It seems that some readings according to Ibn Masud have been discovered by Alba Fedeli in one of the Sana'a palimpsests (Codex Ṣanʿāʾ DAM 01-27.1 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From Mid-1st Century Of Hijra)

"Recently, the scriptio inferior text of this folio including one of its sister folios has been studied again by Alba Fedeli, a pupil of Noseda and now Director of Fondazione Ferni Noja Noseda, who confirmed some of the readings were of Ibn Mas‘ūd as well as some other companions as reported in the Islamic traditions."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../Mss/soth.html

[In2deep]

(Original post by mariachi)
if for you a singular is the same as a plural, and an active verb the same as a passive, then you don't need to worry

You misunderstand the very essence of these riwayaat, they are the Qur'aan read in different dialects, the meaning always stays the same. The Qiraa’aat help give a wider or alternative meaning to the verse, and it is considered a form of miracle of the Holy Quraan and all have been transmitted from the Prophet (saws). If there are differences such as a singular/plural then both are correct and give a wider meaning to the verse.

[mariachi]

(Original post by In2deep)
You misunderstand the very essence of these riwayaat, they are the Qur'aan read in different dialects, the meaning always stays the same. The Qiraa’aat help give a wider or alternative meaning to the verse, and it is considered a form of miracle of the Holy Quraan and all have been transmitted from the Prophet (saws). If there are differences such as a singular/plural then both are correct and give a wider meaning to the verse.

so, you agree that it is not true that all Qurans are identical word for word, letter by letter

well, at least this is something.

As to the difference of meaning between an active and a passive verb, it can have huge implications. Even singular/plural can impact the meaning. An "alternative" meaning could be, perhaps, the opposite of the original.

It would be useful to have a "critical" edition of the Quran, mentioning all these differences side by side, so that their impact could be evaluated.

Best

[ahmed1990]

(Original post by leiloon)
this sentence was a little hard for me to translate into English! ...
I meant that most of the people who want to destroy Islam invoke to some issues such as heritage or testimony (which I mentioned in my first post) or ... and say "why Quran says a woman should heir half of what a man heir? it shows that Islam pays low attention to women." Although I don't have any objection to this rule but I wonder what is the real reason for it? I have heard a lot of justifications for it like " men are responsible to pay for family but women don't have such duties" but it is a ridiculous justification! maybe a widow or divorced woman is the protector of the family. these are not persuasive answers.

why women like slaves can not testify in courts or other juridical issues?
I have accepted these rules by heart because I'm sure there definitely is a wisdom behind it. I wonder what that reason is? because it is a common objection to Islam in my country and if I know the fact I can defend these rules strongly.



it seems you are one of those who ascribe these questions to being impious because they don't know the answer! I have said hundred times that I believe in Islam and its rules by heart and I'm a passionate Muslim but I want to know the reality of these rules in order to respond to people who want to oppose Islam.
Why a man can have more than one wife even if he is able to to do justice to them? why he shouldn't be satisfied with one wife?

Once upon a time, two women gave birth to two babies, the former gave birth to male baby, and the latter gave birth to a female baby,but they argued about who will take the male and the female cause they both didnt know to whom they gave birth,so they went to ask a great muslim scientist at that time,and told him the case, then he said: bring me two empty cups and fill them in with your milk,
imagine what?! the woman who gave birth to boy filled all the cup in, and the woman who gave birth to a girl just filled the half cup in with milk, that means female has the half of what the male has forever, not only in heritage, my friend, i hope you can understand from that story.
if you wanna know more feel free to discuss it with me
best regards

[mariachi]

now, take this as an example : this is the average level of "knowledge" about the Quran on this forum, and in much of the Ummah

(Original post by ss4adib)
Do you know that every single letter in the Qurans now are exactly the same as in the one revealed 1400 years ago? You didn't did you? Now stop talking out of your ****

too many people simply believe what they are told by their elders, or by some imam, and then paste it all over the internet