D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IV
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVThat's why I put it in brackets, unfavorable is too soft to describe it (judging by the ME where most Muslims reside), and hate is too strong, so dislike is probably the most accurate.(Original post by AkaJetson)
Unfavourable views of their practices maybe, 'dislike' no.
This isn't implying that most Muslims regardless of sect, can't tolerate/get on with each other in peace, that would require hate.Last edited by Perseveranze; 02-06-2012 at 01:27. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVSalafis believe that some Shia's commit shirk (according to the Sunni Islamic definition of the word). Committing Shirk nullifies your belief in Islam. Nullifying your belief in Islam makes you an apostate. And Mohamed stated that apostates should be killed. Ergo, Shia's who belong to certain sects that involve shirk deserve to be killed. Logically follows.(Original post by KythingToWrite)
I've seen some Saudis and several Sunnis on this thread, so I'll just ask this (hopefully inoffensive) question. I have nothing against Sunnis, just to clarify; I come from a majority Sunni community, it's with Saudi that I have an issue.
Why are Wahabbis (or whatever term you prefer), particularly the ones who control most of the Saudi Arabian government, so against Shi'as?
I understand the religious differences issue, but that doesn't mean you go around killing people, does it? (I'd quote Qur'anic verses, but I'm assuming you're familiar with them :P) I've been looking for a 'sensible' answer, but the most I've gotten is "Saudi is stupid." Not exactly satisfactory. So, some enlightenment from someone more familiar with the Saudi system would be appreciated.
Anyway, Salafis generally don't condone the killing of Shia's by individuals unless it's down via a Islamic trial. It's only the government that can kill them because vigilantism in Islam is wrong. So you really shouldn't generalize Salafis/Wahabbis like that. They aren't murderers. They're pro-murder for certain Shia's and other apostates but not actually murderers. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVIt doesn't make sense to me. If Shia beliefs are kuffur, then you are not an apostate because you were never Muslim to begin with. If you are an apostate, it can only be because you are Muslim before you became an apostate, in which case there has to be some specific act that makes you an apostate, therefore being Shia in itself is not apostasy.(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Salafis believe that some Shia's commit shirk (according to the Sunni Islamic definition of the word). Committing Shirk nullifies your belief in Islam. Nullifying your belief in Islam makes you an apostate. And Mohamed stated that apostates should be killed. Ergo, Shia's who belong to certain sects that involve shirk deserve to be killed. Logically follows.
OR more succinctly, either Shi'ism is not Islam, in which case you can't be an apostate because you were neevr Muslim, or Shi'ism is Islam, in which case you are not an apostate. Eitherway, Shi'ites can't be apostates merely on the basis of being Shi'ites.Last edited by Dirac Delta Function; 02-06-2012 at 01:37. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVOnly about 20% of Muslims live in the Middle East. Most are in South/South East Asia.(Original post by Perseveranze)
That's why I put it in brackets, unfavorable is too soft to describe it (judging by the ME where most Muslims reside), and hate is too strong, so dislike is probably the most accurate.
This isn't implying that most Muslims regardless of sect, can't tolerate/get on with each other in peace, that would require hate. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVYeah, I thought of this problem too. My only reply would be that if you ask those Shia's whether they believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohamed (saw) is his last prophet, they'd say yes therefore are Muslim. However, ask them about their other beliefs then that would exclude them from Islam hence become non-Muslim. But, the problem with this logic is that when they replied to your original question they already held those other beliefs hence are automatically excluded from being a Muslim. Confusing ass ****.(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
It doesn't make sense to me. If Shia beliefs are kuffur, then you are not an apostate because you were never Muslim to begin with. If you are an apostate, it can only be because you are Muslim before you became an apostate, in which case there has to be some specific act that makes you an apostate, therefore being Shia in itself is not apostasy. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVI think, other than Muslim, the possible status would be something like "zindiq", which seems to be some catch-all status for the non-ahlul-kitab people and whatnot. Zindiqs can be killed and their wives and property taken without the usual restrictions that apply to apostates and ahlul kitab, but I'm not too certain because it's not really talked about much.(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Yeah, I thought of this problem too. My only reply would be that if you ask those Shia's whether they believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohamed (saw) is his last prophet, they'd say yes therefore are Muslim. However, ask them about their other beliefs then that would exclude them from Islam hence become non-Muslim. But, the problem with this logic is that when they replied to your original question they already held those other beliefs hence are automatically excluded from being a Muslim. Confusing ass ****. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVIncluding South Asian nations I believe still validates the statement.(Original post by Brutal Honesty)
Only about 20% of Muslims live in the Middle East. Most are in South/South East Asia. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IV(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
It doesn't make sense to me. If Shia beliefs are kuffur, then you are not an apostate because you were never Muslim to begin with. If you are an apostate, it can only be because you are Muslim before you became an apostate, in which case there has to be some specific act that makes you an apostate, therefore being Shia in itself is not apostasy.
OR more succinctly, either Shi'ism is not Islam, in which case you can't be an apostate because you were neevr Muslim, or Shi'ism is Islam, in which case you are not an apostate. Eitherway, Shi'ites can't be apostates merely on the basis of being Shi'ites.
There's a misconception here.(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Yeah, I thought of this problem too. My only reply would be that if you ask those Shia's whether they believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohamed (saw) is his last prophet, they'd say yes therefore are Muslim. However, ask them about their other beliefs then that would exclude them from Islam hence become non-Muslim. But, the problem with this logic is that when they replied to your original question they already held those other beliefs hence are automatically excluded from being a Muslim. Confusing ass ****.
Most Shia's in the world are not considered Kaafirs/apostates. This is because to my knowledge, most don't commit Shirk (only some do), and insulting the Sahaba(ra)'s does not make one an apostate, it just means they lack adab (respect), which is still punished under Shariah (but it's usually Tazir punishments). It is an unfortunate part of their teachings, which is what is generally disliked, but some Shia's for the sake of peace won't necessarily speak their mind, which works out best for everyone. And Shia's can understand why insulting the companians of the Prophet(pbuh) has no benefit whatsoever.
Generally speaking, Shia's are just considered as some of the other groups, that they're considered Muslim (in the most basic sense) but strayed away from the teachings of Islam.
Historically speaking, Shia/Sunni have lived along side one another in peaceful co-existence.Last edited by Hylean; 02-06-2012 at 03:11. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVIt's good in theory, but the problem is the theory here. Their aims are mainly to Unite the Muslims under a single banner of a Caliphate. However, you need more than just talking about Caliphate and organizing protests. Despite them being active in talking, handing leaflets etc. their knowledge of Islam is pretty shallow and is often inspired by weird philosophical doctrines that are deviated from the Orthodox Islamic theology. So my opinions on them is pretty mixed, but Allah knows best.(Original post by ugk4life)
what do people here think of hizb ut tahrir?
As another poster once put it; They see "Khilafah" as a political philosophy. This is why they have many commonalities with Socialists. They have this grand utopic theory about the ideal political system. This is why you will always find their shabab to be very theoretical and not very practical.
It's worth reading about the problems of HT's ideals here - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/mi...but-Tahrir.htm
This is a recent interview by a HT member, may give you a better idea of their objectives etc. from their point of view -
Last edited by Perseveranze; 02-06-2012 at 03:00. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVis there any truth to allegations of extremism?(Original post by Perseveranze)
It's good in theory, but the problem is the theory here. Their aims are mainly to Unite the Muslims under a single banner of a Caliphate. However, you need more than just talking about Caliphate and organizing protests. Despite them being active in talking, handing leaflets etc. their knowledge of Islam is pretty shallow and is often inspired by weird philosophical doctrines that are deviated from the Orthodox Islamic theology. So my opinions on them is pretty mixed, but Allah knows best.
As another poster once put it; They see "Khilafah" as a political philosophy. This is why they have many commonalities with Socialists. They have this grand utopic theory about the ideal political system. This is why you will always find their shabab to be very theoretical and not very practical.
This is a recent interview by a HT member, may give you a better idea of their objectives etc.
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVI don't think they're extreme in the violent sense (some small controversy's in the past, but it doesn't reflect the ideological view of the group itself, they're quite peaceful in their methods), but I'd say in some respects they're extreme in parts of their Islamic theology and principles.(Original post by ugk4life)
is there any truth to allegations of extremism?
Read this - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/mi...but-Tahrir.htm
The reason they get a lot of attraction (from Muslims) is because they're probably the most organized group that calls for Muslim unity, and have a lot of influences in many different countries.
However, a lot of people just take the good aspects, where they have large organized protests for Syria/Palastine etc. and reject the controversial stuff, which may revolve around some of their political ideals and Islamic beliefs.Last edited by Perseveranze; 02-06-2012 at 03:19. -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVwhoa long article lol, will read tomorrow. thanks for the link though. who do you identify with in terms of islamic schools of thought?(Original post by Perseveranze)
I don't think they're extreme in the violent sense (some small contraversy's in the past, but it doesn't reflect the ideological view of the group itself, they're quite peaceful in their methods), but I'd say in some respects they're extreme in parts of their Islamic theology and principles.
Read this - http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/mi...but-Tahrir.htm -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVNone. I just prefer to follow the strongest opinions with the most evidences on any matter.(Original post by ugk4life)
whoa long article lol, will read tomorrow. thanks for the link though. who do you identify with in terms of islamic schools of thought? -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVNot sure I've asked this same question before, so anyway here is.
I went to one of Islamic lectures. One was on about the last man who left the Hell to march on to Heaven. The man asked for something, Allah gave to him. Then he asked for more saying it will be last thing he asked for, then Allah grants him something again and again even though he said it will be last.
Not sure what he was wishing for, but I think he wished to leave the Hell.
This story was told more than 3 months ago so I can't remember fully.
So, my question is, I thought the Hell was eternal? -
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Re: D&D Theology's "Ask About Islam" Thread Mk. IVhttp://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...7#post31700247(Original post by Rtcw)
Not sure I've asked this same question before, so anyway here is.
I went to one of Islamic lectures. One was on about the last man who left the Hell to march on to Heaven. The man asked for something, Allah gave to him. Then he asked for more saying it will be last thing he asked for, then Allah grants him something again and again even though he said it will be last.
Not sure what he was wishing for, but I think he wished to leave the Hell.
This story was told more than 3 months ago so I can't remember fully.
So, my question is, I thought the Hell was eternal?
