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Original post by Overmars
The adage 'the league table never lies' exists for a reason. There have been plenty of examples or debate about the best team in Europe not winning the Champions League. How many times have you heard much debate about the best team in the country not winning the league? The league is the bread and butter and has always been the true barometer.

About the rest -- I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but I think people are confused with what I'm saying. Player vs player, Barcelona are the better team ability-wise. Agreed. IF another team can win the league despite this, surely praise has to go to the manager? Consistency is a massively important factor. The most important, in fact.


I completely understand where you are coming from and would agree if it was any other set of teams we were comparing. However, this Barca team have beaten this Madrid team comprehensively on numerous occasions. They have outplayed Madrid and have made them look mediocre. We seriously can't say Madrid is better. Also we can't make the assumption that Madrid will win the league. All it takes is Madrid to draw a match and for Barca to beat them at the Nou camp and we have a completely different argument here.
Original post by Overmars
I have been watching a fair bit of La Liga and I think the notion that the quality of the league is poor is completely false and naive. The quality of football is absolutely superb. And it's why Spain, as a nation, are dominating football. I read recently a stat by Orbinho that placed Mata, Silva and Arteta the best for chance creation in the league. It's no coincidence.

And we're in agreement. As I've kept saying -- Barcelona are the more talented team and have greater ability. IMO, as I've said in other threads, they're probably the best team in history. The very fact that Real Madrid's players aren't better but can still win the league is a reflection on Mourinho's ability as a manager.

This is not a debate about who is better -- Real Madrid or Barcelona. It's about the manager. And who can argue another time when -- over the course of 38 games -- the best team hasn't won the league? Some decent logic would give a lot of credit to the manager for that.

Exactly, la liga has great players in it, england lack a striker besides rooney, spain can drop torres and never play him again, they still have silva, fabregas, negredo, mata, pedro, villa, soldado(hasn't even broken in the team yet).

Then look at the U21 squad, how many of those players where playing for barca and madrid? Sure you had thiago, romeu, canales and bojan, but what about muniain, herrera, mata, de gea, all top class players who didn't play for barca or madrid.

I think in england we should change the system and make B teams, arsenal haven't made too many young english players besides wilshere and gibbs, same for chelsea with mceachran and bertrand. United only have cleverley. City have richards, tottenham have rose and walker and liverpool have kelly.

Compare that to barcelona alone, I reckon real madrid have better youth players than we do as well, mata, soldado and negredo comes to mind.
Original post by Darth Vader 7
I completely understand where you are coming from and would agree if it was any other set of teams we were comparing. However, this Barca team have beaten this Madrid team comprehensively on numerous occasions. They have outplayed Madrid and have made them look mediocre. We seriously can't say Madrid is better.


Player-wise, ability-wise, maybe not. But if they win the league, all the head-to-head losses mean nothing. Mourinho's objective is to win the league against the best team in recent history and he would've done that. Well done him -- fantastic management. Case closed.

Also we can't make the assumption that Madrid will win the league.


That's what I've said from the start. But for all the head-to-head results, the fact that they are ahead in the league is what matters the most. Now if they go on to lose it, of course Mourinho will have failed in his mission. But the manager's job is to deliver trophies. And beating Barca to the league would be a damn good achievement. So far so good, from his perspective.
Original post by Overmars
I have been watching a fair bit of La Liga and I think the notion that the quality of the league is poor is completely false and naive. The quality of football is absolutely superb. And it's why Spain, as a nation, are dominating football. I read recently a stat by Orbinho that placed Mata, Silva and Arteta the best for chance creation in the league. It's no coincidence.

And we're in agreement. As I've kept saying -- Barcelona are the more talented team and have greater ability. IMO, as I've said in other threads, they're probably the best team in history. The very fact that Real Madrid's players aren't better but can still win the league is a reflection on Mourinho's ability as a manager.

This is not a debate about who is better -- Real Madrid or Barcelona. It's about the manager. And who can argue another time when -- over the course of 38 games -- the best team hasn't won the league? Some decent logic would give a lot of credit to the manager for that.
You mention Spain as a side dominating side, how many of the players in that Squad are from outside of Real and Barca or are not ex Real and Barca products?

This is the main I disagree with. How many managers could not bring Real home in a comfortable second place? Look at the top 4 managers in the PL, in Serie A, in the Bundesliga, how many of those manager would fail to beat the vast majority of La Liga with the assets Jose has? This has not be a problem, finding a manager to bring Madrid home in 2nd place. His aim is to better Barcelona, and I disagree if you think he has done that. He hasn't bettered Barca one this season, and isn't looking like doing it. If Madrid win the league it will be by default, which is still a win yes, but not tactical brilliance. I don't think anyone disagree's with Barca being a more talented team, and I don't think he has nothing to be proud of. I do think that Real being in first place has more to do with the failures of Barcelona this season than an improvement in Real relative to Barca this season.

The idea that the league doesn't lie is true if there is a reasonable level of competition. Its not unreasonable to think Barca will/could win every game from now to the end of the season, its not unreasonable to assume they will beat Real in their next league meeting, yet who do you think is going to win the league? I can't see how you can look at the best club team in history, then see how Real have been outclassed by them this season Jose having no plan other than to Park the bus foul with Pepe and counter with Ronaldo, then when Real win the league say the league doesn't lie and its a testament to him as a manager that he has bettered Barca.

Anyway, I think we had better leave it, this being the Arsenal thread.
Original post by Darth Vader 7
Are you being stupid on purpose? Liverpool have come closer than Arsenal? Last two seasons we finished above them and during the whole premier league era, we have finished 13 times above them by my count.

Where are you getting your facts?


Liverpool finished second in the 08/09 season. When was the last time Arsenal came that close?
Original post by doggyfizzel
You mention Spain as a side dominating side, how many of the players in that Squad are from outside of Real and Barca or are not ex Real and Barca products?

This is the main I disagree with. How many managers could not bring Real home in a comfortable second place? Look at the top 4 managers in the PL, in Serie A, in the Bundesliga, how many of those manager would fail to beat the vast majority of La Liga with the assets Jose has? This has not be a problem, finding a manager to bring Madrid home in 2nd place. His aim is to better Barcelona, and I disagree if you think he has done that. He hasn't bettered Barca one this season, and isn't looking like doing it. If Madrid win the league it will be by default, which is still a win yes, but not tactical brilliance. I don't think anyone disagree's with Barca being a more talented team, and I don't think he has nothing to be proud of. I do think that Real being in first place has more to do with the failures of Barcelona this season than an improvement in Real relative to Barca this season.


I can't believe you seriously think that a manager wouldn't take losing head-to-head battles and winning the league. Winning the league is the objective. Ability-wise many would argue Man City's squad pisses on everyone else in the league. But if Man Utd win it, it'll be because of great management again by Alex Ferguson. If Man Utd lose the away league game 6-1 again, I doubt he would care. And rightly so. Same with Mourinho -- if he wins the league against the best team in the country, he has a lot to be proud of.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 3086
Original post by Kevmeister
Liverpool finished second in the 08/09 season. When was the last time Arsenal came that close?


When was the last time Liverpool won the Premier League?
Original post by haz864
When was the last time Liverpool won the Premier League?


Dunno, but its hardly relevant to the discussion I was having with Darth. Read back a bit.
Reply 3088
Original post by Overmars
....

Winning the league on its own might not be enough to save himself from the job, even though it will be a fantastic achievement.
Original post by jit987
Winning the league on its own might not be enough to save himself from the job, even though it will be a fantastic achievement.


Well, yeah it's Real Madrid. They're nuts. Capello got sacked because his brand of football wasn't attractive enough.
Reply 3090
Original post by haz864
When was the last time Liverpool won the Premier League?


Loool I just felt like saying it :L
Original post by Overmars
Well, yeah it's Real Madrid. They're nuts. Capello got sacked because his brand of football wasn't attractive enough.


Del Bosque got sacked after winning the CL. Last time they won it, too.

EDIT: He won the league in his last season, CL in 2002.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Brienza13
anybody else agree?

he is paid 6 million pounds a year to buy average players for a team competeing with City, Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool exc!

his policy of buying building a team around young players have failed!! most have left or turned out to be very average.

why should he be given anymore time when United, Chelsea, City are only going to carry on spending whilst Arsenal will continue to fall backwards due to Arsene's failure to buy quality players.

How many World Class players has be bought since they last one the League....?

Sack him now!


I agree with you totally, even though I am Arsenal fan I think he should be sacked.
Just my opinion
Original post by Kevmeister
Liverpool finished second in the 08/09 season. When was the last time Arsenal came that close?


2004-2005. Arsenal are 4-3 up in regards to who has finished higher since the Invincibles. I have to disagree with Liverpool being better than Arsenal in the Premier league in recent times. If you are going to pick facts, Arsenal have finished above them in the last two seasons and hence are a better premier league team ATM. Case closed.
Original post by Darth Vader 7
2004-2005. Arsenal are 4-3 up in regards to who has finished higher since the Invincibles. I have to disagree with Liverpool being better than Arsenal in the Premier league in recent times. If you are going to pick facts, Arsenal have finished above them in the last two seasons and hence are a better premier league team ATM. Case closed.


So, we pick the last two seasons because it suits your point. Nice.

You're miles ahead of them atm.
For how much did pool buy enrique for?
Original post by antonfigo
For how much did pool buy enrique for?


£6m or so.
Original post by Kevmeister
So, we pick the last two seasons because it suits your point. Nice.

You're miles ahead of them atm.


Yes because when I mention that we have won the title most recently, you pick the point of who came second, so I will pick the point of them being lower than us for the last two seasons.

Is your last point sarcasm? If so well done.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by jam277
Last summer was because he got 50 million from fabregas and nasri, out of that 50 million he got, he spent 30 million of it and banked the rest. Classic arsenal to do this. Since you have a top class manager this wouldn't happen to you, but chelsea had a situation like this when they were challenging for honours in the 1970's like you guys are now and got cups, they nearly ended up in the 3rd tier and almost went bust. I fear for arsenal, there's only so much that wenger can do.


We definitely wont go bust or get relegated haha Be realistic. You clearly didnt read my post. Its about whether Wenger "banked" the money or just wasnt allowed to spend it.
Disappointed to see fabregas go down so easily, barca have poisoned him.