Feminism!

If that's happened, then those feminists are a disgrace to feminism. Feminism is about gender equality. In no way am I saying men don't have problems, but nothing compared to the likes that women unfortunately still face. Women have it harder than men, you must realise. And that is what feminism fights against.

You say feminists have nothing to complain about yet you haven't responded to a single thing that I posted in which I told you exactly the sort of things feminists care about. And please don't talk about my friends like that. I was friends with some of them before I got involved in feminism, and, SHOCK HORROR! Some of them had BOYFRIENDS! In LOVING CARING RELATIONSHIPS! Some men haters, eh?

Well you lot have a lot of disgraces in your little sexist group. And i did respond, it isnt true. Women now have votes, equal pay, equal education etc etc etc, there is nothing else to campaign about. They and you do it just to nag. Now if you went over to somewhere like saudi arabia etc then ill have respect for you, but not in Britain. And yeah from my experience (and thats about 20 - 30 people in college) they hate men. One even said that they wouldnt kill men, just put them into concentration camps like Hitler.... yeah, they DEFFINATLY dont hate men.

I'm slightly ill and not in a good mood, so you're not helping.

Simply saying 'it's not true' isn't good enough unless you have something to back it up. Please say why one of the things I told you about isn't a problem for women.

With all due respect, I assure you that you're wrong on these points. For one, I love men and get on quite well with them. Secondly, I believe most feminists who are sincere, would approve of female conscription and allowing both men and women off in equal numbers and orders, on a drowning boat. The whole "ladies first" trope is old and outdated, and most self-respecting women don't really imbibe it.

Excuse my ignorance, but I've never properly understood what feminism is. I have a basic knowledge, but nothing more. Could someone explain it to me please?

So basically feminists seek equal rights for women in comparison to men? Surely in the majority of first world countries that's the case anyway? I assume they also attempt to eradicate gender roles/stereotypes?

One of the many problems feminism today faces. Those of you who say feminism is outdated and just today means that women want to oppress men, this is for you.

That was beautiful. Just saying.

What particularly gets to me, is the fact that society should deem motherhood and child bearing as an inferior role or job, thus allocating it less respect. Why should the perpetuation of the human race be considered less important than closing corporate mergers and acquisitions? Who's going to close those deals if women decide to play the game and have fewer children? And we wonder why birthrates are declining.

Biologically, babies do depend on the mother more, but not to the extent that society currently wants us to believe. Outside of feeding, there's no reason why men should not play a more nurturing and involved role in their child's upbringing. If you want to have children, you must be prepared to partake fully in raising them, not just cutting a cheque at the end of the month, and showing up on weekends to give them a peck on the cheek. This is more or less what I saw many men do last year when I worked at an accountancy firm. These men (senior partners) literally travelled three days out of the week, and worked from 7:00am to about 10:00pm. There's no way they're getting home in time to have any meaningful interaction with their children, let alone wife. I bet she has to work a "less demanding" and perhaps menial job in order to make up for his absence. How is this fair?

Feminism is indeed about addressing these disparities, not giving women more rights than men. In our current society, unfortunately the inequalities are now structural, not direct. So it isn't a matter of a glass ceiling telling women they can't rise to the top, but rather societal practices that serve to ensure that they won't, at least not if they also wish to fulfill their roles as mothers and carers etc. As such, I think the dialogue continues...

Feminism today does not campaign to allow women to be 'total bitches'. It campaigns against the appalling gap in pay between men and women that still exists today, it campaigns, in Britain, against the fact that the spending cuts disproportionally affect women more than men; it campaigns against objectification of women in the media and contemporary society, it campaigns against the horrific attitude the authorities have towards sexual harassment and rape – I could go on.

By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women's happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women's declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging -- one with higher subjective well-being for men.

This is exactly what I am saying. I am only arguing that for this one particular issue, men's concerns are less urgent than women's. IMO, family values are BS, so I don't sympathise with any argument about fathers or mothers - to me personally it shouldn't be an issue, we should just have social workers. That would provide paid work for people who want to be 'housewives' or 'househusbands' (i.e. regardless of gender), so it is relevant to this discussion. It would allow such people to be self-sufficient. In the current system, such people have to get married and have kids etc. but if children were raised by the state it would turn their vocation into a paid career, giving them the same rights as wage slaves who view themselves as having a more noble vocation.
What worries me is that you are referring to the black rights movement in the past tense also. They still don't have equal opportunity in the US. Maybe you should stop procrastinating over history books and actually get some knowledge about modern issues that still matter. All historians are biased, so stop whining about feminist historians.

hello, I am an Egalitarian, I believe everyone deserves equal treatment from each other and under the law as such I support all movements that share these aims, does this society share my aims?

I have a big interest in sociology, psychology, and understanding people, in order to decide how good people have been compared to the average and thus how many presents to give them. In my research I've learnt a few things which you may find interesting.

Of course, women and men should both be paid the same for providing the same value to society (doing the same job for the same number of hours with the same level of skills), and both should have equal opportunities.

If, however, women are being paid less than men for the same job, then that's a big market inefficiency. Companies are out to make a profit, and if they're paying men more per hour than women for doing the same job, they're wasting money - they should instead employ more women at the lower salary. If all companies in a market are sexist and pay men more per hour than women for doing the same work, you could make a fortune by correcting this market inefficiency and creating a company which employs just women. Good luck!

Also, women disproportionately benefit from government spending (whereas men disproportionately pay more tax than women do - as a result of men earning more money than women), so it's inevitable that spending cuts hurt women more than men. Let's face it, the Western economies are pretty screwed financially right now, and they have to make cuts. Governments can't continue spending like they did in the good years. You could argue that "bankers should be taxed more because they made this mess," but then they'll begin leaving the City to go somewhere more tax-friendly (as is already beginning to happen - jobs are heading to Switzerland).

At the end of the day, men and women are different, and while we should all have equal opportunities, we'll end up with different outcomes due to our different priorities in life. We should cherish these differences, and complement the other gender. Yin and yang.

The result of making men more like women, and making women more like men?

Feminism is not about gender equality anymore, its about female supremacy & "hating Feminism is NOT hating girls/women". You are lead to BELIEVE that is what it is, but it has been taken over by this group.
If arguing about equality then surely more urgent than pay is the majority of 1.suicides, 2.workplace (not just 3.police/4.forces), 5.recently divorced people deaths are male; 6.more than 5+ years difference when men die early; 7.more violence on men? Find proof of these 7 points yourself (or ask) because nothing says inequality then an early grave.

Men face many problems (click other headers in link) & discrimination, Tom Martin's site has 100+ cited reasons & a funny video at LSE. In posts 113 & 120 I mentioned some info on false rape at www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=35453544.
(No one should compare Black's oppression with female's oppression. Blacks were removed from home made into slaves for decades, where Africa was raped of its culture, natural resources & people. In the past British women were equally oppressed as British men.)

The main points raised in this thread seems to be about earnings, maternity, army.
First I will assume that demand & supply determine pay & we want "equal pay for equal job productivity", i.e. less pay for a new radiographer then radiologist; with equal grades/experience/hospital the wage should be the same for 2 new radiographers/radiologists.

The gender pay gap is to do with job CHOICES. Its a choice to have children, if not then women'd earn more. Company cost is MORE paying maternity leave & a replacement - so she may earn less, but has cost more for the same productivity. In medicine when too many women become pregnant for maternity leave, its not EVEN possible to get replacements & patients suffer.

Society does not deem motherhood and child bearing as an inferior role, feminism does; women are embarrassed to say I am happy being a wife & bringing up children, their own instincts. It took wide array of skills to run a decent home and family in the past & men were so in awe of them. Women still have these skills & men can't compete, when they join a job where men's skills are needed...

Childless women in their 20s earn MORE then men. Should we look forward to women paying for dates? Or happy for the man to give up his career (or not have one) to be a househusband? It won't be common as women are naturally into hypergamy. In capitalism if women truly earnt less, all businesses would be falling over themselves to hire women.

Warren Farrel a 3 times Director of NOW (pure feminism), was able to explain the pay gap myth.
From "Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap - and What Women Can Do About It" book: more pay where you do jobs with danger money (oil rig), work unsociable hours (night shift on new years eve), commute longer & travel extensively (sales), not take career breaks (pregnancy/sabbaticals), stay with 1 employer, do 60+ hour jobs/overtime (CEOs), less holidays & take more risks (entrepreneur), work in an inhospitable environment (mining), less absence from work, be willing to relocate inc overseas, have dependents or a partner who does not work, take on different & bigger responsibilities even with the same job title (precursor to promotion), less secure jobs (commission), willing to pay for their own advanced education (PhD/internship), produce MORE.

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=321 highlights choice by The Motherhood Penalty & More women in part-time work, but ignores Govt. handouts. It talks about median gross weekly pay for male single parents is more, ignoring that women get >80% of sole custody & hence enforced support from the father.
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/mar/08/international-womens-day-pay-gap# - article shows men's median pay more for same job description. Nurses & Nursing auxiliaries and assistants show that men's median pay is more, given that 92% of these people are women - anyone really think such domination could discriminate women?!

With a desire for women to be doing the same jobs as men the standards needed for police /firepeople/military drop rather then say its not for you; so who loses out - the general public. www.manwomanmyth.com/video/equality/the-pay-gap/ video for a v. good explanation.

The Govt supports women in the workplace with laws, as more labour pool means less pay (demand/supply) which make the economy more favourable to business esp. consumerism & more tax £ for the Govt., as well as women votes. E.g. in India the Media benefit "breaking families leads to more spicy news like increasing crime, increase in gender violence both agsint men and women alike, most importantly breaking families brings immense financial gain to the media and its advertisers" - http://menseekjustice.blogspot.com/2011/03/indian-media-supports-498a-and-family.html explains how.

http://profeministmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/on-feminism-pro-feminist-men-and-group-think/ - former male feminist, talks about the way they are forced to think within feminism; repeat mantra don't ask questions. Some in-fighting & censoring.

Feminism is not about gender equality anymore, its about female supremacy & "hating Feminism is NOT hating girls/women". You are lead to BELIEVE that is what it is, but it has been taken over by this group.

With a desire for women to be doing the same jobs as men the standards needed for police /firepeople/military drop rather then say its not for you; so who loses out - the general public. www.manwomanmyth.com/video/equality/the-pay-gap/ video for a v. good explanation.

If arguing about equality then surely more urgent than pay is the majority of 1.suicides, 2.workplace (not just 3.police/4.forces), 5.recently divorced people deaths are male; 6.more than 5+ years difference when men die early; 7.more violence on men? Find proof of these 7 points yourself (or ask) because nothing says inequality then an early grave.

I would say that your views are completely compatible and harmonious with those of feminism. Feminism is an egalitarian movement because it aims to break down gender disparities among both genders with the hopes of creating a society where all people are treated equally.

I agree,i always wanted to just plough a feminist girl

I certainly do - if women want the same rights as men, that should include the same responsibilities.

http://awomanagainstfeminism.blogspot.com/2007/12/middle-aged-princess-grows-up.html

^What I think is wrong about feminism today.

To be honest, I used to be a feminist myself during my teen years because I thought it meant to be a movement that encourages women to better themselves, but then I realised that most self-proclaimed feminists nowadays are nothing but self-centered and self-entitled sad sods that always seem to blame men for all of their problems, so I decided to disassociate myself from such a misleading term.

Also, if feminists are really fighting for the rights of all women, then why do they seem to only focus on monetary issues and status symbols? Why is it that almost none ever question or fight for the rights of women that are actually being oppressed around the world, particularly Africa, the Middle East and Asia?