[Rosalind]

..

[callum9999]

To me, this is one of those "what if" questions that are almost impossible to give a succinct answer to. But as a quick point, I personally doubt I would have turned vegetarian if meat consumption was just of "waste products".

A bit like with road kill. There is logically no reason at all for me not to eat it - it doesn't go against any of my moral beliefs which turned me vegetarian in the first place. But there is still no way I would remotely consider eating it.

I'd also add in the caveat that I turned vegetarian due to the killing animal issue - but also for health reasons. A vegan diet is often bad for you and can knock years off your life, where as vegetarianism is just as - if not more - healthy as the normal diet. I didn't completely discard the "survival of the fittest" etc. - just use it to the lowest extent possible.

[bbq1948]

You've answered your own question in your post. Vegetarians see not eating meat as enough of a sacrifice. Even if they are indirectly supporting the meat industry by consuming dairy products they are having less of an impact than meat eaters so it's not really a contradiction. Most people just aren't prepared to stick to a vegan diet.

[blueray]

I drink milk because I get it from my local farm and it is not intensively farmed either.

It is true rice milk also tastes sweet, but my love for Indian sweets stops me from having non dairy.

[ashwin_547]

I like that question. Where would you place eggs? For example with vegetarians in the UK and plenty of places in general eating eggs is considered vegetarian but for example in India and Nepal eggs are considered non-vegetarian.

I think when you look at it this way - from a vegetarian's perspective - you don't directly contribute to the death of an animal when you drink milk at least it is what it seems like, however, when you eat meat there is always that feeling that you were in some way responsible for some death. At least that's how I see it and I'm vegan.

Oh and trust me, once you go to a farm or a slaughterhouse or if you realize what sausages and all that stuff are made of you will squeal.

[ashwin_547]

Eating meat is perfectly acceptable! I mean I just believe in it really strongly and occassionally face the music for that. I'll explain I spent all my life and grew up in various African countries and my family still live there. This whole vegetarian thing poses a difficulty in some places because it's very difficult to go out of the capital city in many many countries and find anything even remotely vegetarian. You'd probably have to settle on chips fried in the same oil that chickens were fried in. I get a lot of flack for being vegetarian and I used to drink tons of milk but when I found out that cows are being given stuff like hormones and all that weird stuff it freaked me out!

See that's where I think there's that fine line but I think milk isn't an issue because technically you're not killing the animal.

Ok try this - where would you put honey? )

[blueray]

(Original post by ashwin_547)
I like that question. Where would you place eggs? For example with vegetarians in the UK and plenty of places in general eating eggs is considered vegetarian but for example in India and Nepal eggs are considered non-vegetarian.

I think when you look at it this way - from a vegetarian's perspective - you don't directly contribute to the death of an animal when you drink milk at least it is what it seems like, however, when you eat meat there is always that feeling that you were in some way responsible for some death. At least that's how I see it and I'm vegan.

Oh and trust me, once you go to a farm or a slaughterhouse or if you realize what sausages and all that stuff are made of you will squeal.

Yeah some people are like "ohh its so cruel" and go home and have some sausages....double standards.

[ilex_]

It also depends on why you became vegetarian - a lot of people do it for health benefits rather than ethics, or because of general disagreement with the agricultural industry (I can understand with milk this can be a little of a double standard). For me, I became a vegetarian when I was quite young (8), and simply didn't agree with killing animals (especially as I wanted to be a vet at the time). I was a little too young to understand about the dairy industry and the issue of calves being separated from mothers/culled, and by the time I'd discovered it, I wasn't likely to go back to eating meat but still relied on a lot of diary in my diet to willingly cut it out. I think everyone draws a line somewhere; there's quite a spectrum of strictness between vegetarians.

[blueray]

(Original post by ilex_)
It also depends on why you became vegetarian - a lot of people do it for health benefits rather than ethics, or because of general disagreement with the agricultural industry (I can understand with milk this can be a little of a double standard). For me, I became a vegetarian when I was quite young (8), and simply didn't agree with killing animals (especially as I wanted to be a vet at the time). I was a little too young to understand about the dairy industry and the issue of calves being separated from mothers/culled, and by the time I'd discovered it, I wasn't likely to go back to eating meat but still relied on a lot of diary in my diet to willingly cut it out. I think everyone draws a line somewhere; there's quite a spectrum of strictness between vegetarians.

True on the health hospital a guy only eat raw food and you know what his problem was? He was "too healthy"

[diving_queen]

(Original post by Rosalind)
Please read this whole post before responding...

I understand vegetarianism, and I think it is reasonable and respectable to decide not to eat meat on a moral obligation, due to an objection to ending another living thing's life and/or to reduce animal suffering (needless to say, this thread doesn't apply to people who are vegetarian merely due to a dislike for the taste of meat, though I see nothing wrong with that either)

But - how can you justify drinking milk if you are vegetarian? PLEASE READ ON BEFORE ANSWERING. In order for a cow to produce milk, she must have a calf. Only one bull is required for a farm, yes some have more than one but there is certainly no need for a 1:1 cow:bull ratio. So, if the calf is male, surely he is only to be culled if he is not to be raised for food?

I posed this question to a vegetarian friend, who said she knew where I was coming from, but she drank milk because she felt that refraining from eating meat was at least making some difference, and that was enough for her. Again, I think this is fair enough.

Before some people say it - no, I am not confusing vegetarianism with veganism. I am merely questioning what I see to be a hole in the moral foundation of vegetarianism, and I am interested to see people's responses.

I agree. Sorry but those people that are vegetarians for ethical issues (animal cruelty etc) simply must give up dairy if they 1) Don't want to be hypocrites and 2) Want to follow through with their convictions.

I am currently in the 'inbetweeny' stage. Don't eat meat, butter, milk, cheese. But still consume products containing milk and butter Cutting those out it very difficult but has to be done for me personally

In my mind, being a standard vegetarian is better (for animals!) than being an omnivore. But if you are serious about the ethical side of animals then you need to cut dairy out comepletly (unless you own your own cow....and have a good relationship with that cow to the point it won't mind if you pump liquid out of its boobs for a couple of minutes) and eggs (unless they are 100% true free range).

[rifle.eyes]

Dairy cows actually have a much worse quality of life than cows bred for consumption. They are packed in small enclosures and constantly impregnated or treated with hormones in order to keep them producing milk. Cows bred for consumption on the other hand get to roam around the fields all day eating grass.

Maybe it would save more suffering if vegetarians just abstained from drinking milk instead of eating cows.

[Ben Butler]

I would argue that drinking milk from an animal that was in the cycle of getting slaughtered is going against the whole ethics/principles of being a vegetarian. It's the same with an egg from a chicken. So indirectly this is wrong for a vegetarian. There are plenty of times when my mum who is a vegetarian, has thought about going vegan.

[death.drop]

I don't really know how people decide to draw the line and decide to be veggie or vegan.
I don't eat much meat, what I do eat is ethically farmed. I mostly buy BUAV approved shampoos etc. I have my own chickens for eggs. I figure some effort is better than no effort. I guess vegetarian is the same theory, just more of an effort.

Some people just don't think things the whole way through. I know someone who didn't eat chicken because she disagree'd with animals being killed just so we can eat. She did, however, eat eggs. She said it was OK because they were free range eggs so there was no suffering. As we talked about it, and I mentioned the mass slaughter of cockerels she looked horrified. Turns out she had never realised that was the case - she thought chickens had evolved so that only 1 in 10 would be male or something and they'd all go and live out their lives on farms.
So I suppose ignorance must play a part in some cases.

[diving_queen]

(Original post by death.drop)
I don't really know how people decide to draw the line and decide to be veggie or vegan.
I don't eat much meat, what I do eat is ethically farmed. I mostly buy BUAV approved shampoos etc. I have my own chickens for eggs. I figure some effort is better than no effort. I guess vegetarian is the same theory, just more of an effort.

Some people just don't think things the whole way through. I know someone who didn't eat chicken because she disagree'd with animals being killed just so we can eat. She did, however, eat eggs. She said it was OK because they were free range eggs so there was no suffering. As we talked about it, and I mentioned the mass slaughter of cockerels she looked horrified. Turns out she had never realised that was the case - she thought chickens had evolved so that only 1 in 10 would be male or something and they'd all go and live out their lives on farms.
So I suppose ignorance must play a part in some cases.

You are one of the first people I have 'met' that have clocked on that animal abuse goes much further than our diets. Nice

Superdrug's own brand is mainly BUAV And then there are loads of natural animal friendly (aka not tested on) products from Lush and The Body Shop (thoooough not sure where the body shop line is...i've read/heard that they are part of another company that DOES test. Tricky.).

But yes. Nice post in general I do find it confusing that some people think that being veggies is the ultimate 'animal loving thing'. There are so many more...like you said. The egg trade, the dairy trade, the toiletires business, make-up business, clothing business...bloody vegetable oil business! T'is crazy!.

You seem to be actively trying to do good. Wish there was more peeps on the planet who thought the same.

[ashwin_547]

Of course animal abuse goes far beyond our diets. I still would like to know where honey stands in all this hubbub?

[kerily]

I think a lot of vegetarians are conscious that vegetarianism isn't enough to avoid harming any animals or contributing to the horrible things animals go through, but lack the drive/resources/time/health/whatever to become fully vegan. I'm one of them; I fully intend to be vegan this time next year, but I have to reconcile that with my health and my body's total inability to react to change, and that's important to me too.

I feel even worse about drinking milk now.

[Norton1]

(Original post by ashwin_547)
Of course animal abuse goes far beyond our diets. I still would like to know where honey stands in all this hubbub?

The bees live exactly the same life whether you eat their honey or not, so what's the problem?

Edit: Well, shut my mouth

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

[juliewho]

I was pretty young when I became vegetarian and my logic behind it was "I don't need to eat animals, so why should I?"
As i've had more exposure to the ethical issues behind some dairy products, I do think it would be more logical to become vegan. Unfortunately my immune system is pretty rubbish and so it would be unhealthy to do so, and also I lack the money to buy non-dairy products (which are fairly expensive, especially if you're 17 and living in a home that can barely afford to eat Tesco's basic range as it is) so it's not going to change anytime soon.

[carehow]

I'm well aware my opinion won't be at all popular, but I really think people who are vegetarian for ethical reasons are pretty hypocritical. Well, not necessarily if their logic is that they can't be bothered/don't have the time/etc to take that extra step and think that a little effort is better than nothing, but not those who are just doing it to reduce animal cruelty or not to be involved in the industry full stop.

I don't see the point in these people not going vegan. It's not that difficult.

(I don't know if I've made any sense, or come across vegetarian-hating? >.<)

[death.drop]

(Original post by ashwin_547)
Of course animal abuse goes far beyond our diets. I still would like to know where honey stands in all this hubbub?

Vegetarians can eat it because it's not a dead animal. Vegans can't eat it because it's still exploitation of animals.


Personally I do eat it but I usually pay extra and get locally produced small-scale stuff. When we were kids we had our own beehives. More often than not I just go for golden syrup.