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Rich students have it easy?
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Original post by simstatic
That's boarding school. Private is £8 - 12k p/a. And yeah it is more than an education, though in the one I went to half of the people in private schools only seem to be there because their parents can afford it. Not neccessary academic brilliance. And I definately wouldn't say my parents are rich because sending me there was a sacrifice.
At one of the ****ty ones maybe. Mine is nearly that per term and I assume most of the best ones are similar.
Original post by saey
Trufax:
7% of the population is privately educated, yet about 40% of the students at universities in the 'Russel Group' (UK's top 20ish) were from public schools.
So yes, definitely easier to reach a top uni! And of course contacts help. Obviously there are outliers, but in general it is easier for rich kids.
Life isn't fair. No one ever said it was.
7% of the population is privately educated, yet about 40% of the students at universities in the 'Russel Group' (UK's top 20ish) were from public schools.
So yes, definitely easier to reach a top uni! And of course contacts help. Obviously there are outliers, but in general it is easier for rich kids.
Life isn't fair. No one ever said it was.
logical fallacy. The fact that 40% of Russell Group students are privately educated compared to 7% of the population does not imply it is easier.
It could be that more students from private schools end up going to universities. Or that students from private schools are cleverer than students from the average state school.
People fail to realise that there are a few types of private school.
You have your pretty awful private schools which are essentially holding pens for the stupid offspring of middle class families. These schools are the ones where students get a big advantage with regards to university applications.
Then you have the higher market private schools, where the kids are generally clever. No amount of good teaching is going to ensure that the school has 80% of GCSE grades at A*. The kids here are generally clever. Usually because money is not the only barrier to entry. These schools have very difficult entrance exams which ensure only the brightest gain entry. These are the schools were many students end up going to Oxbridge and the top Russell Group universities. And this is more down to them being generally intelligent people than the school they went to. Obviously there are advantages such as smaller class sizes, less disruption, maybe better teachers. But they often work harder and are more motivated to succeed.
Original post by nexttime
So that over 30% of AAA candidates come from just 7% of the privately educated is... pure coincidence?? Its just chance that 45% of Oxbridge are private schooled (even if it isn't 100% 
) Private schools exist because... rich people like to throw away their money?
I think the statement in bold is particularly ludicrous. Grades do come from hard work like you say, but private schools give you the drive, the resources, the focus and direction and importantly the environment you need to work hard do well in exams. No i don't know that from personal experience, and i'd accept suggestions of alternative mechanisms, but the results speak for themselves.
) Private schools exist because... rich people like to throw away their money? I think the statement in bold is particularly ludicrous. Grades do come from hard work like you say, but private schools give you the drive, the resources, the focus and direction and importantly the environment you need to work hard do well in exams. No i don't know that from personal experience, and i'd accept suggestions of alternative mechanisms, but the results speak for themselves.
Again how do you know these things? to me you simple do not understand private schools at all. how many oxbridge students come from middle class families? the vast vast majority, you quote stats that simple are not in depth enough, you have state and private, those are two very large groups, how about private day, private boarding and public schools? how about inner city comp, suburban comp, grammar schools etc, the likely hood is that the top students will (massive generalisation here) come from middle class families, such that live in the suburbs and send their children to well respected schools if it be the local comp, grammar or a private school, you are missing the point, the middle classes cross the state and private sector, and all these will be of similar standard. if you look at the incomes of the families of the students who attended top unis will be very similar, the middle classes put the pressure on the children to succeed and thats where the drive comes from, not from attending a private school at 13.
I don't know one person in my year at college who's going on to do medicine next september. However, from my old school (private) I know of about 25 who have places/interviews for medicine. Go figure.
Original post by ah.meh
Again how do you know these things? to me you simple do not understand private schools at all. how many oxbridge students come from middle class families? the vast vast majority, you quote stats that simple are not in depth enough, you have state and private, those are two very large groups, how about private day, private boarding and public schools? how about inner city comp, suburban comp, grammar schools etc, the likely hood is that the top students will (massive generalisation here) come from middle class families, such that live in the suburbs and send their children to well respected schools if it be the local comp, grammar or a private school, you are missing the point, the middle classes cross the state and private sector, and all these will be of similar standard. if you look at the incomes of the families of the students who attended top unis will be very similar, the middle classes put the pressure on the children to succeed and thats where the drive comes from, not from attending a private school at 13.
I agree with most of that. Top grammars also provide a similar advantage, and family background is indeed very important regardless of school. However, school is still very important. I cannot accept the notion that paying £50,000+ per year for an education has no influence on grades. Middle class parents alone do not explain the degree of gap seen.
Original post by appletizer
I kind of agree that those who really want to do it will persist, but I think the new levels of debt that the student finance reforms will bring must surely put some people off?
If it puts them off, then they don't really want to be doctors. If it is your dream/calling you will do whatever it takes to get there, it's that simple.
Original post by fudgesundae
At one of the ****ty ones maybe. Mine is nearly that per term and I assume most of the best ones are similar.
logical fallacy. The fact that 40% of Russell Group students are privately educated compared to 7% of the population does not imply it is easier.
It could be that more students from private schools end up going to universities. Or that students from private schools are cleverer than students from the average state school.
People fail to realise that there are a few types of private school.
You have your pretty awful private schools which are essentially holding pens for the stupid offspring of middle class families. These schools are the ones where students get a big advantage with regards to university applications.
Then you have the higher market private schools, where the kids are generally clever. No amount of good teaching is going to ensure that the school has 80% of GCSE grades at A*. The kids here are generally clever. Usually because money is not the only barrier to entry. These schools have very difficult entrance exams which ensure only the brightest gain entry. These are the schools were many students end up going to Oxbridge and the top Russell Group universities. And this is more down to them being generally intelligent people than the school they went to. Obviously there are advantages such as smaller class sizes, less disruption, maybe better teachers. But they often work harder and are more motivated to succeed.
logical fallacy. The fact that 40% of Russell Group students are privately educated compared to 7% of the population does not imply it is easier.
It could be that more students from private schools end up going to universities. Or that students from private schools are cleverer than students from the average state school.
People fail to realise that there are a few types of private school.
You have your pretty awful private schools which are essentially holding pens for the stupid offspring of middle class families. These schools are the ones where students get a big advantage with regards to university applications.
Then you have the higher market private schools, where the kids are generally clever. No amount of good teaching is going to ensure that the school has 80% of GCSE grades at A*. The kids here are generally clever. Usually because money is not the only barrier to entry. These schools have very difficult entrance exams which ensure only the brightest gain entry. These are the schools were many students end up going to Oxbridge and the top Russell Group universities. And this is more down to them being generally intelligent people than the school they went to. Obviously there are advantages such as smaller class sizes, less disruption, maybe better teachers. But they often work harder and are more motivated to succeed.
Sounds like I insulted someone who is at an elitist private school.
Who are you kidding when you say it isn't easier for private school kids? Yes you have very highly selective schools, and yes, the kids there will be 'smarter' than kids who didn't get in. But you're missing the fact that there will be loads of kids out there who are just as smart, if not smarter, who didn't get in because they could not afford it.
And really? You're telling me that the teaching you get at places like Westminster and Eton doesn't help with grades? Are you trolling? (this is serious question btw)
At St Paul's you're spoon fed, you have revision packs made for you, you have the peer pressure to get better grades than the person next to you. And it's cool (to some extent) to be smart! Of COURSE it's easier.
You are also told, from a young age, that you MUST go to university at such elitist private schools.
Original post by ah.meh
If you know nothing about private schools and have no experience of them then i do not think you are a great opposition to comment on them are you. I think you are very naive to jump to outdated cliches. You simple do not understand my point, these students who gain these top grades do so on their own effort, regardless of their education establishment they would have succeed. a private school does not give you the drive to succeed. your comments are silly, if private school is such a massive advantage as you make out oxbridge would be 100% from private stock, but no, these individuals have got the determination from their parents who worked equally as hard to send them to private schools.
As someone GOING to one of the most expensive private schools in the UK, which achieves top grades and sends 98% of its pupils to university every year (with the other 2% going to Art/Music schools or applying next year) I disagree completely.
Yes, some of it will be on our own merit, yes we had to pass difficult entrance exams, but I know for sure that had I gone to the local comprehensive there is no way I would be aiming for Oxbridge!
While not every private school kid has far more chances, many of us have far better chances than those at a state school. I have more lessons than my friends who are at state schools, given more homework, given far more past paper materials/revision notes, far more lessons spent on exam technique. In addition, if I need help with anything, I can waltz up to any teacher and (s)he WILL give it to me. However, at many state schools, this is not the same!
In addition, being at a private school like mine definitely DOES give you the drive to achieve. Since I was 11, I have been peer pressured into working hard. At my school, it's all about being better than the person next to you. It's cool to be good at maths. In fact, I remember having an argument with someone about who spent more time working, because work is cool.
Original post by simstatic
That's boarding school. Private is £8 - 12k p/a. And yeah it is more than an education, though in the one I went to half of the people in private schools only seem to be there because their parents can afford it. Not neccessary academic brilliance. And I definately wouldn't say my parents are rich because sending me there was a sacrifice.
Actually, day pupils at Westminster pay ~£21k a year in their final years...
Original post by saey
As someone GOING to one of the most expensive private schools in the UK, which achieves top grades and sends 98% of its pupils to university every year (with the other 2% going to Art/Music schools or applying next year) I disagree completely.
Yes, some of it will be on our own merit, yes we had to pass difficult entrance exams, but I know for sure that had I gone to the local comprehensive there is no way I would be aiming for Oxbridge!
While not every private school kid has far more chances, many of us have far better chances than those at a state school. I have more lessons than my friends who are at state schools, given more homework, given far more past paper materials/revision notes, far more lessons spent on exam technique. In addition, if I need help with anything, I can waltz up to any teacher and (s)he WILL give it to me. However, at many state schools, this is not the same!
In addition, being at a private school like mine definitely DOES give you the drive to achieve. Since I was 11, I have been peer pressured into working hard. At my school, it's all about being better than the person next to you. It's cool to be good at maths. In fact, I remember having an argument with someone about who spent more time working, because work is cool.
Yes, some of it will be on our own merit, yes we had to pass difficult entrance exams, but I know for sure that had I gone to the local comprehensive there is no way I would be aiming for Oxbridge!
While not every private school kid has far more chances, many of us have far better chances than those at a state school. I have more lessons than my friends who are at state schools, given more homework, given far more past paper materials/revision notes, far more lessons spent on exam technique. In addition, if I need help with anything, I can waltz up to any teacher and (s)he WILL give it to me. However, at many state schools, this is not the same!
In addition, being at a private school like mine definitely DOES give you the drive to achieve. Since I was 11, I have been peer pressured into working hard. At my school, it's all about being better than the person next to you. It's cool to be good at maths. In fact, I remember having an argument with someone about who spent more time working, because work is cool.
Which school are you going to then?
read though the post before you write your rubbish.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by saey
Sounds like I insulted someone who is at an elitist private school.
Who are you kidding when you say it isn't easier for private school kids? Yes you have very highly selective schools, and yes, the kids there will be 'smarter' than kids who didn't get in. But you're missing the fact that there will be loads of kids out there who are just as smart, if not smarter, who didn't get in because they could not afford it.
And really? You're telling me that the teaching you get at places like Westminster and Eton doesn't help with grades? Are you trolling? (this is serious question btw)
At St Paul's you're spoon fed, you have revision packs made for you, you have the peer pressure to get better grades than the person next to you. And it's cool (to some extent) to be smart! Of COURSE it's easier.
You are also told, from a young age, that you MUST go to university at such elitist private schools.
Who are you kidding when you say it isn't easier for private school kids? Yes you have very highly selective schools, and yes, the kids there will be 'smarter' than kids who didn't get in. But you're missing the fact that there will be loads of kids out there who are just as smart, if not smarter, who didn't get in because they could not afford it.
And really? You're telling me that the teaching you get at places like Westminster and Eton doesn't help with grades? Are you trolling? (this is serious question btw)
At St Paul's you're spoon fed, you have revision packs made for you, you have the peer pressure to get better grades than the person next to you. And it's cool (to some extent) to be smart! Of COURSE it's easier.
You are also told, from a young age, that you MUST go to university at such elitist private schools.
Bringing out the can't afford to go to public school argument is ridiculous. My school has so many bursaries available and scholarships to those who are extremely clever but cannot afford the fees. I believe they offer one scholarship which is up to 75% off fees. So I disagree, the kids at my school and at other similar schools are among the very smartest in the country. Of course there are kids just as smart, but saying there are loads of kids who are smarter is just plain wrong.
To a certain extent the teaching does help, but some of the ridiculous sentiments that are echoed on this site are laughable. Some people actually think that the top schools help to get complete idiots 10 A*s. They don't, they give people who are capable of getting the grades the extra push and support to get them. So in that sense it does help. But it does not help to the extent that people say it does.
Ok we get given revision packs. That doesn't get you an A*. There are plenty of great revision guides on the internet or on amazon that you can buy for a fiver.
You are right about how it is cool to be smart, and having not been to a comprehensive I can't really comment on the stigma attached to being smart there.
Of course it is drummed into you how you must go to university, but if you have any sense then that should be obvious to you anyway.
One point that a lot of people fail to mention as well, is how we actually do harder exams. I have friends at state schools who did those piss easy modular GCSEs where half of the paper is multiple choice. We did iGCSEs which having looked at their papers are on a whole other level.
I'm not going to say that it doesn't help being around people who are as smart as you, have the drive to succeed, having help available when you need it, being pushed and worked harder, because it does.
But to nowhere near the amounts that people on TSR say it does. We still have to work just as hard to get our grades (maybe harder). Like I said earlier many of the people at my school would do just as well at other schools and would be just as likely to get into top universities because they are extremely clever people.
Original post by saey
Yes, some of it will be on our own merit, yes we had to pass difficult entrance exams, but I know for sure that had I gone to the local comprehensive there is no way I would be aiming for Oxbridge!
Yes, some of it will be on our own merit, yes we had to pass difficult entrance exams, but I know for sure that had I gone to the local comprehensive there is no way I would be aiming for Oxbridge!
Why is that? You think that going to your school has made you that much cleverer?
While not every private school kid has far more chances, many of us have far better chances than those at a state school. I have more lessons than my friends who are at state schools, given more homework, given far more past paper materials/revision notes, far more lessons spent on exam technique.
Honestly, in the past this may have made a big difference, but people just can't use that excuse any more. All of the stuff you have quoted is so readily available on the internet. Anyone can use the materials.
I went to a middling state school. It was fine.
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Original post by TooSexyForMyStethoscope
I went to a middling state school. It was fine.
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
exactly
Original post by joker12345
Better schools, perhaps better grades, forward thinking, more opportunities at private school etc ... yeah, maybe there's a bit of an advantage. But at the end of the day, the people who deserve it probably do get in, regardless of background.
EDIT: I don't see what do controversial about this so I'm not sure why I'm being negged, if anyone would like to explain it would be nice.
EDIT: I don't see what do controversial about this so I'm not sure why I'm being negged, if anyone would like to explain it would be nice.
This contact business is a bit overhyped, if you want to get work experience it's there, and at the end of the day when they look at your forms vs. your own schools performance i'd rather be doing well in a class of 30 than well in a class of 5
Original post by TooSexyForMyStethoscope
I went to a middling state school. It was fine.
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Perfect answer
They have advantages in most things academic, yes.
Original post by TooSexyForMyStethoscope
I went to a middling state school. It was fine.
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
Public school can also be fine.
I don't think there is much more to discuss...
They tried that in the 70s. It lead to 3 out of 4 doctors being privately educated!
Original post by mrshinyshoes
This contact business is a bit overhyped, if you want to get work experience it's there, and at the end of the day when they look at your forms vs. your own schools performance i'd rather be doing well in a class of 30 than well in a class of 5
Wow - where do you live? Getting work experience here was like drawing blood from a stone. Everyone i knew either used a 'contact' or went abroad. EDIT: I mean in regards to specific hospital work, rather than general volunteering.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by nexttime
They tried that in the 70s. It lead to 3 out of 4 doctors being privately educated!
Isn't it pretty much the same ratio now?
Original post by nexttime
They tried that in the 70s. It lead to 3 out of 4 doctors being privately educated!
What is your point?
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