The NHS claims another victim
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I was in hospital recently and the nurses were very attentive (not quite that attentive 
), regularly checking my vital signs and giving me medication (which I had to take every few hours) etc.; when I was bleeding in the middle of the night, one poor nurse had to come and mop me up, but she was very pleasant and joked with me about it.
I don't see how one tragic case can be at all evidence for systemic failure (just as my positive experience doesn't prove that there aren't medical staff who go about their job in the wrong way).
), regularly checking my vital signs and giving me medication (which I had to take every few hours) etc.; when I was bleeding in the middle of the night, one poor nurse had to come and mop me up, but she was very pleasant and joked with me about it.I don't see how one tragic case can be at all evidence for systemic failure (just as my positive experience doesn't prove that there aren't medical staff who go about their job in the wrong way).
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Carpediemxx
lmao
I don't see what's funny about the pisspoor standard of Britain's medical students?
Original post by Carpediemxx
lmao
Sorry if I've made a mistake, you could have just corrected me lol
Original post by jismith1989
I was in hospital recently and the nurses were very attentive (not quite that attentive ), regularly checking my vital signs and giving me medication etc. I don't see how one tragic case can be at all evidence for systemic failure (just as my positive experience doesn't prove that they're aren't medical staff who are going about their job in the wrong way).
), regularly checking my vital signs and giving me medication etc. I don't see how one tragic case can be at all evidence for systemic failure (just as my positive experience doesn't prove that they're aren't medical staff who are going about their job in the wrong way).
These people are celebrating that in one instance, the NHS provided a good standard of care. I can assure you however that your case was not the norm.
Original post by Otkem
I can assure you however that your case was not the norm.
Original post by Otkem
I don't see what's funny about the pisspoor standard of Britain's medical students?
You know very little if anything about the standards of British medical students.
The fact you have cited a daily mail article about 1 case of poor medical care does not stand you in good stead for arguing against the NHS. Further, you have completely overlooked the millions of lives saved, and the love shown by staff on a daily basis.
Read: shut up
Original post by Agent Smirnoff
What kind of a doctor cannot take a blood sample? I would have thought that if you are a junior doctor.... you would know how to take blood and even so .....a Nurse should be able to help you! They usually assist F1 and F2 doctors on wards!
Not sure if you're serious here..? I'm actually
at all these armchair phlebotomists.Most of my peer doctors on my firm (which is comparable to 'junior' in the article & is actually above F1/F2 - most paediatric juniors are STs) probably can't get blood from a patient at least weekly.
It's a skill & sometimes it is difficult.
One of the major reasons for difficulty is co-operation/behaviour of the patient (especially in children, similar issues in the delerious or with learning difficulties/mental health issues), physiological trends (again - some especially in children - babies are... erm, small & toddlers can be an absolute nightmare with subcutaneous fat distribution) and then as with adults - some people just anatomically have feeble veins.
Most doctors can get some blood from somewhere on everyone - the problems are:
- Getting it in the least distressing way (multiple attempts by the same person or less comfortable groin or arterial samples are especially last resort in children. Topical anaesthetics add a delay. If parents start refusing blood tests that complicates things a lot! If children develop a needlephobia - especially in potentially chronic illnesses it can cause major problems later down the line).
- Getting a useful sample (if it's haemolysed by being squeezed out then all your Us&Es results aren't going to be any good).
- Getting enough (I've never come across a bedside analyser which are the types of machine that can work on tiny tiny amounts of blood that would give you a WCC/CRP result and those would be key in looking for biochemical evidence of inflammation/infection).
Out of hours everything is generally harder - fewer (if any) play specialists for distraction, fewer nurses for mechanical assistance (if a brute force is needed), fewer colleagues of the same level around for a fresh pair of eyes and of course, fewer senior colleagues for escalating it up if you can't.
How much one person tries before escalating and the urgency of doing any task is a balancing prioritization act of how urgent the sample it is and how likely the results are to change management. With the aid of a retro-scope both of those are easier to judge.
Nurses? Taking bloods from children?? It's hard enough to get doctors in non paediatric specialities to take blood from the adult-sized-teenagers they admit because of the "paediatric" issues around doing the bloods!
On the cuff note - blood pressures are much less routinely done in paediatrics - most likely because of the logistics of numbers of different cuff sizes, co-operation and different reference ranges for interpretation.
Anyhow, sad story & sounds like lots of things lined up for the adverse outcome. Hopefully lessons will be learnt rather than just knee jerks & convenient scapegoating.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Ayshizzle
Sorry if I've made a mistake, you could have just corrected me lol
Sorry, i didn't mean to be mean
Suturing isn't (perhaps suprisingly) a priority for many medical schools and barely even in taught in some (which i think is ridiculous)
Original post by Carpediemxx
Sorry, i didn't mean to be mean
Suturing isn't (perhaps suprisingly) a priority for many medical schools and barely even in taught in some (which i think is ridiculous)
Suturing isn't (perhaps suprisingly) a priority for many medical schools and barely even in taught in some (which i think is ridiculous)
Haha no I didn't think it was mean, I just thought I'd made some ridiculous mistake
. I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
Oh my, you think that terrible incidents like this DON'T happen in America?
You think increasing the amount you pay for healthcare, and switching to a private source, will magically make it perfect and quick? The standard Americans receive is on-par with MOST of what the NHS offers - there are a few 'worse' hospitals but I'm sure there are in the US to - this is despite the fact they pay A LOT MORE money.
Essentially, you're argument is based on anecdotal examples and blind non-data-supported ramblings.
The NHS is possibly the greatest thing this country has constructed in the last 50 years, except for maybe the BBC.
You think increasing the amount you pay for healthcare, and switching to a private source, will magically make it perfect and quick? The standard Americans receive is on-par with MOST of what the NHS offers - there are a few 'worse' hospitals but I'm sure there are in the US to - this is despite the fact they pay A LOT MORE money.
Essentially, you're argument is based on anecdotal examples and blind non-data-supported ramblings.
The NHS is possibly the greatest thing this country has constructed in the last 50 years, except for maybe the BBC.
Original post by Katie_Saint
Fair point, but I meaning more about the middle managers than the administrators. Obviously admin has to get done, but a million and one managers are most probably unnecessary and a lot less could probably do the same job just as well.
Fair enough. In my department the "manager" actually just did the same job but with more accountability, and we were so constrained for money that when a patient died I had the job of taking their notes out of the file and sending them into storage so we could re-use the cardboard file for the next patient, the powers that be wouldn't even give us money for new patient files, so I have no understanding of this "bloated over-funded" mystery section of the NHS!
Original post by Suzanathema
Fair enough. In my department the "manager" actually just did the same job but with more accountability, and we were so constrained for money that when a patient died I had the job of taking their notes out of the file and sending them into storage so we could re-use the cardboard file for the next patient, the powers that be wouldn't even give us money for new patient files, so I have no understanding of this "bloated over-funded" mystery section of the NHS!
Cuts could probably be made, but that's the same everywhere tbh! People just like to moan XD
Original post by Ayshizzle
Haha no I didn't think it was mean, I just thought I'd made some ridiculous mistake .
I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
. I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
Suturing and venepuncture will likely be taught in all medical schools but when it's taught varies between them. We did venepuncture first then suturing in our first year but a lot of places will leave it till before the students go into hospital in year 3/4.
To the OP: I don't think taking a single story of something going wrong in the NHS (though obviously more things go wrong daily) can be construed as the whole system failing. Speaking as a medic, someone who sees more of it than most, the number of times things go right for patients and lives are saved far outweighs the number of times the patient dies or isn't helped in some way. I'd much rather have a system like we have here, when I know if I fall ill then I don't have to worry about whether I can afford treatment or not, to one where I have to go without it.
Then again you seem incredibly bitter about it for some reason and nothing's going to change your mind. Let's just hope you don't need hospitalising at any point.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Silkielemon
The NHS is possibly the greatest thing this country has constructed in the last 50 years, except for maybe the BBC.
Are you trying to give the OP a stroke so he has to be looked after in an NHS hospital? Have a look through his thread history, he has about as much love for the Beeb as he does the NHS.
Original post by Ayshizzle
Haha no I didn't think it was mean, I just thought I'd made some ridiculous mistake .
I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
. I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
Our first official suturing teaching is in February this year (final year)
Big joke tbh
Venepuncture varies a lot per uni, we had our first " formal" teaching in year 3, which is a year on from starting clinical teaching in year 2
Original post by Elles
Not sure if you're serious here..? I'm actually at all these armchair phlebotomists.
Most of my peer doctors on my firm (which is comparable to 'junior' in the article & is actually above F1/F2 - most paediatric juniors are STs) probably can't get blood from a patient at least weekly.
It's a skill & sometimes it is difficult.
One of the major reasons for difficulty is co-operation/behaviour of the patient (especially in children, similar issues in the delerious or with learning difficulties/mental health issues), physiological trends (again - some especially in children - babies are... erm, small & toddlers can be an absolute nightmare with subcutaneous fat distribution) and then as with adults - some people just anatomically have feeble veins.
Most doctors can get some blood from somewhere on everyone - the problems are:
- Getting it in the least distressing way (multiple attempts by the same person or less comfortable groin or arterial samples are especially last resort in children. Topical anaesthetics add a delay. If parents start refusing blood tests that complicates things a lot! If children develop a needlephobia - especially in potentially chronic illnesses it can cause major problems later down the line).
- Getting a useful sample (if it's haemolysed by being squeezed out then all your Us&Es results aren't going to be any good).
- Getting enough (I've never come across a bedside analyser which are the types of machine that can work on tiny tiny amounts of blood that would give you a WCC/CRP result and those would be key in looking for biochemical evidence of inflammation/infection).
Out of hours everything is generally harder - fewer (if any) play specialists for distraction, fewer nurses for mechanical assistance (if a brute force is needed), fewer colleagues of the same level around for a fresh pair of eyes and of course, fewer senior colleagues for escalating it up if you can't.
How much one person tries before escalating and the urgency of doing any task is a balancing prioritization act of how urgent the sample it is and how likely the results are to change management. With the aid of a retro-scope both of those are easier to judge.
Nurses? Taking bloods from children?? It's hard enough to get doctors in non paediatric specialities to take blood from the adult-sized-teenagers they admit because of the "paediatric" issues around doing the bloods!
On the cuff note - blood pressures are much less routinely done in paediatrics - most likely because of the logistics of numbers of different cuff sizes, co-operation and different reference ranges for interpretation.
Anyhow, sad story & sounds like lots of things lined up for the adverse outcome. Hopefully lessons will be learnt rather than just knee jerks & convenient scapegoating.
at all these armchair phlebotomists.Most of my peer doctors on my firm (which is comparable to 'junior' in the article & is actually above F1/F2 - most paediatric juniors are STs) probably can't get blood from a patient at least weekly.
It's a skill & sometimes it is difficult.
One of the major reasons for difficulty is co-operation/behaviour of the patient (especially in children, similar issues in the delerious or with learning difficulties/mental health issues), physiological trends (again - some especially in children - babies are... erm, small & toddlers can be an absolute nightmare with subcutaneous fat distribution) and then as with adults - some people just anatomically have feeble veins.
Most doctors can get some blood from somewhere on everyone - the problems are:
- Getting it in the least distressing way (multiple attempts by the same person or less comfortable groin or arterial samples are especially last resort in children. Topical anaesthetics add a delay. If parents start refusing blood tests that complicates things a lot! If children develop a needlephobia - especially in potentially chronic illnesses it can cause major problems later down the line).
- Getting a useful sample (if it's haemolysed by being squeezed out then all your Us&Es results aren't going to be any good).
- Getting enough (I've never come across a bedside analyser which are the types of machine that can work on tiny tiny amounts of blood that would give you a WCC/CRP result and those would be key in looking for biochemical evidence of inflammation/infection).
Out of hours everything is generally harder - fewer (if any) play specialists for distraction, fewer nurses for mechanical assistance (if a brute force is needed), fewer colleagues of the same level around for a fresh pair of eyes and of course, fewer senior colleagues for escalating it up if you can't.
How much one person tries before escalating and the urgency of doing any task is a balancing prioritization act of how urgent the sample it is and how likely the results are to change management. With the aid of a retro-scope both of those are easier to judge.
Nurses? Taking bloods from children?? It's hard enough to get doctors in non paediatric specialities to take blood from the adult-sized-teenagers they admit because of the "paediatric" issues around doing the bloods!
On the cuff note - blood pressures are much less routinely done in paediatrics - most likely because of the logistics of numbers of different cuff sizes, co-operation and different reference ranges for interpretation.
Anyhow, sad story & sounds like lots of things lined up for the adverse outcome. Hopefully lessons will be learnt rather than just knee jerks & convenient scapegoating.
Thanks for the insight
Quite good but please........ Do bear in mind that I am just an A Level student..... I don't know a grand deal of things about this
Original post by Ayshizzle
Haha no I didn't think it was mean, I just thought I'd made some ridiculous mistake .
I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
. I thought suturing was taught by all medical schools, and wasn't sure if venepuncture or suturing was taught first.
That's really interesting, although now you mention it, I did go to a suturing class as part of surgical soc at uni and was sat with some 4th year medics who had no idea what they were doing! I was really surprised as us first year dental students have already done it, and I thought that would be one of those things that's considered a basic clinical skill that all medics would need to know.
DO you not learn Venipuncture in Dental School?
Original post by Otkem
Oh its you. What a surprise.
Oh its you. What a surprise.
Original post by Otkem
It makes me so angry that my taxes are paying for this, when people in the USA get access to a much higher standard of treatment with no waiting times, for the same price that we pay in NI for the NHS.
It makes me so angry that my taxes are paying for this, when people in the USA get access to a much higher standard of treatment with no waiting times, for the same price that we pay in NI for the NHS.
Wrong. The US system costs the taxpayer MORE.
And with no waiting times? Really? I doubt that is true.
And it is only better if you can afford it.
Original post by Otkem
Does this kind of case herald the need for an end to socialised medicine?
Does this kind of case herald the need for an end to socialised medicine?
Except of course things like this happen in ANY healthcare system.
Original post by Otkem
These people are celebrating that in one instance, the NHS provided a good standard of care. I can assure you however that your case was not the norm.
These people are celebrating that in one instance, the NHS provided a good standard of care. I can assure you however that your case was not the norm.
Hm, wouldn't say that.
I know of many, many people who have had zero problems with the NHS. I was in in October and they were faultless. Mum was in in September and December and they were fantastic.
Original post by Otkem
if I don't mind having MRSA thrown in as an extra.
Yes becasue everyone who goes into hospital gets it
Oh, and things like MRSA also exist in your wonderful America.
Original post by Otkem
I wish that people would have compulsory private health insurance (like in the USA) rather than trusting this Govt with their health.
And what about people who cannot afford private insurance? (aka the majority of people).
Original post by oo00oo
NHS is absolutely useless.
Yes because providing vital healthcare for people is useless
Original post by oo00oo
It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
It most cases it does work.
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