[lightburns]

(Original post by Formerly Helpful_C)
Why should they pay for, what is effectively, a lifestyle choice smashed together with cosmetic surgery? If you want it, pay for it yourself.

Transsexuality is a very unfortunate mental disorder where an individual is unable to live in their designated gender role. It is only a choice of 'change role, or commit suicide'. Mental disorders are treated on the NHS, despite everyone saying that depressed people should snap out of it, for example.

Here is where you say that psychiatric help should be used, not surgery.

Except that it is ineffective, and expensive. I would not be surprised if I cost the NHS more than £10k due to the fact that they messed me about for years, kept seeing me (at great cost to the taxpayer), without doing anything whatsoever.

Compare that to my private surgery costs of a little over £5k. Bam, done, cured. (If I hadn't just received that inheritence money, I would have committed suicide, so the ~£10k for NHS really helped, huh.)

If you want to say that the NHS shouldn't offer surgery, you need to come up with an alternative solution. 'Let them all hang themselves' doesn't count.

[BKS]

(Original post by lightburns)
Transsexuality is a very unfortunate mental disorder where an individual is unable to live in their designated gender role. It is only a choice of 'change role, or commit suicide'.

I should go to sleep so I won't go on but not everyone accepts that being trans is a mental disorder. I very much have nothing mentally disordered and never have. I also don't find there to be anything unfortunate about it.

[Anonymous]

(Original post by BKS)
I should go to sleep so I won't go on but not everyone accepts that being trans is a mental disorder. I very much have nothing mentally disordered and never have. I also don't find there to be anything unfortunate about it.

I don't class myself as having a mental disorder either - neither does the NHS - they diagnosed me gender dysphoric (no mention of 'gender identity disorder') and, quite ridiculously, in my opinion, they said they could offer no further treatment precisely because they did not consider it a mental illness. Luckily my GP disagrees that there is no further treatment available while still maintaining that it's not a mental illness.

I've no idea whether the NHS itself classes gender dysphoria as a mental disorder but in my case and at the hospital that I was 'treated' at it was not considered a mental disorder by the staff who looked after me.

I differ from you in that I do see it as unfortunate because having this 'condition' has affected my happiness and I wish I wasn't this way. I wish I could either have been happy in the body I was born with or that I had been born the gender I feel I am inside. I think maybe my opinion on that might change over time though and I may eventually become content with my body after surgery/hormones but right now and for a long time it's something that I've found incredibly hard to cope with and to be happy, or at least accepting, about. So yes, for me and my family it's unfortunate that I am this way - and that's putting it mildly.

Everyone has different experiences though and I can understand people who don't want to see their gender dysphoria as something unfortunate - I wish I felt the same .

[lightburns]

(Original post by BKS)
I should go to sleep so I won't go on but not everyone accepts that being trans is a mental disorder. I very much have nothing mentally disordered and never have. I also don't find there to be anything unfortunate about it.

Yes, I understand that that statement is controversial amongst transsexuals.

My own opinion is an attempt to follow research which is that it is a brain abnormality which causes a mental disorder, plus my own bias towards the consequences that I'm about to explain.
Single study showing brain abnormality:
Zhou, Jiang-Ning; Hofman, Michel A.; Gooren, Louis J. G.; Swaab, Dick F. (1995). "A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality". Nature 378 (6552): 68–70.
Review of all the studies concluding that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sexually dimorphic brain:
Gooren, L (2006). "The biology of human psychosexual differentiation". Hormones and behavior 50 (4): 589–601.

By 'unfortunate' I mean that it creates significant depression etc. which causes a large number to off themselves. Undeniably, the suicide risk is 'unfortunate'.

The NHS only treats disorders. If there is not a disorder, there is nothing wrong. It is not for cosmetic treatments. By arguing that transsexuality is not a disorder, the only option left is that hormones and surgery are for cosmetic purposes, rather than being there to treat a disorder and relieve unfortunate symptoms.

That said, there are people who get treatment out of cosmetic preference, but the only reason for it to be available on the NHS is because there are large numbers of people who have no choice but to receive treatment. Their disorder would kill them otherwise. If you define a disorder to be 'atypical' and 'maladaptive', then transsexuality ticks both boxes.

[BKS]

(Original post by lightburns)
Yes, I understand that that statement is controversial amongst transsexuals......

I don’t follow neuroscience type stuff- I assume that’s what it is from the titles. I’ve looked at some but every time I can pick out cisnormative BS. It’s the same reason I don’t put any weight in what the NHS thinks it is or what GICs diagnose. They are systems defined and controlled by cis people that rarely take any input from trans people, let alone any substantial and sustained input (and even that wouldn’t be good enough because it’s not decision making power). No science is objective but anything underpinned by cismornative BS is completely invalid imo.

I have a issue with placing the location of the problem of being trans as in trans people. It’s obviously a problem since as you point out it causes distress. But I think the problem is within society and it’s structures of sex and gender. I’m not sure how being trans would be if these structures were radically different or nonexistent. I’m quite comfortable with the possibility that perhaps nobody would medically transition. Or perhaps medically transitioning would be on par with having a nose job because how it looked really bothers you . But I don’t know if that would be the case because the way society is now shapes the possibilities any of us can think of.

This isn’t something I’d argue if you put me in a room with NHS high ups though because I doubt they would get it and I wouldn’t want them getting the wrong idea. As it is people need access to medical transition through the NHS and I think it’s justified on the fact that providing hormones and surgery (for the right people) greatly reduces distress and improves quality of life.

(Original post by Anonymous)
I differ from you in that I do see it as unfortunate because having this 'condition' has affected my happiness and I wish I wasn't this way.

I understand that. I'm coming at it from the point of view of someone who's 21, has a completely supportive family, lives as male, has medically transitioned in all the ways I want to ect. so being trans is about as consequential to me as being vegan- it effects some practical things but I don't have a particular emotional state about it.

I think it CAN be unfortunate at SOME times for SOME people but being trans is not always and all the time unfortunate. That was more my point, perhaps badly worded

[lightburns]

(Original post by BKS)
I don’t follow neuroscience type stuff- I assume that’s what it is from the titles. I’ve looked at some but every time I can pick out cisnormative BS. It’s the same reason I don’t put any weight in what the NHS thinks it is or what GICs diagnose. They are systems defined and controlled by cis people that rarely take any input from trans people, let alone any substantial and sustained input (and even that wouldn’t be good enough because it’s not decision making power). No science is objective but anything underpinned by cismornative BS is completely invalid imo.

Neuroscience isn't something that should take trans input into account. Whatever the answer is, it should be without political motivations. Consider how Milgram discovered that almost everyone responds to authority in the same way, and that we would kill because someone in a white coat told us to. That was politically incorrect, because it suggests that Nazis were simply normal people in the wrong place at the wrong time, whereas the view at the time was that Germans were morally inferior and succumbed to Nazism when good moral people would not. If the evidence were to show something that transsexuals didn't want to be the case, tough luck.
The neuroscience shows that there is an area in the brain that appears to determine gender (as it correlates with gender identity, not birth sex, current hormone levels, or sexuality). So gender identity is most probably determined early on, and therefore not a choice. It's a good finding for transpeople.

I have a issue with placing the location of the problem of being trans as in trans people. It’s obviously a problem since as you point out it causes distress. But I think the problem is within society and it’s structures of sex and gender. I’m not sure how being trans would be if these structures were radically different or nonexistent. I’m quite comfortable with the possibility that perhaps nobody would medically transition. Or perhaps medically transitioning would be on par with having a nose job because how it looked really bothers you . But I don’t know if that would be the case because the way society is now shapes the possibilities any of us can think of.

Now you are dismissing the situations and circumstances of many transpeople. Many transsexuals put the problem in their body, and medically transition despite overwhelming support from friends and family. For these individuals, depression comes from their own body. Even when people tell them "you don't need X to be a man/woman", they do it anyway, because they cannot not do it. If you're big on trans input, then you have to accept these people's descriptions.

Yes, there are people who are negatively affected by societal views. Particularly among these are the genderqueer people, many of whom would likely live happily if they weren't gender labelled constantly.

I understand that. I'm coming at it from the point of view of someone who's 21, has a completely supportive family, lives as male, has medically transitioned in all the ways I want to ect. so being trans is about as consequential to me as being vegan- it effects some practical things but I don't have a particular emotional state about it.

I think it CAN be unfortunate at SOME times for SOME people but being trans is not always and all the time unfortunate. That was more my point, perhaps badly worded

Why did you medically transition? You could be in the cosmetic camp, as there are transpeople who medically transition as a lifestyle choice like nose jobs etc., because it's a preferable way to live for them. In which case 'unfortunate' might not be appropriate as a label to you, but would still be appropriate for the average transsexual. However, if you were forced into it due to terrible symptoms from your transsexuality, then I think 'unfortunate' is reasonable, with the understanding that the symptoms are lifted.

[BKS]

(Original post by lightburns)
Now you are dismissing the situations and circumstances of many transpeople. Many transsexuals put the problem in their body, and medically transition despite overwhelming support from friends and family. For these individuals, depression comes from their own body. Even when people tell them "you don't need X to be a man/woman", they do it anyway, because they cannot not do it. If you're big on trans input, then you have to accept these people's descriptions.

Yes, there are people who are negatively affected by societal views. Particularly among these are the genderqueer people, many of whom would likely live happily if they weren't gender labelled constantly.

Why did you medically transition? You could be in the cosmetic camp, as there are transpeople who medically transition as a lifestyle choice like nose jobs etc., because it's a preferable way to live for them. In which case 'unfortunate' might not be appropriate as a label to you, but would still be appropriate for the average transsexual. However, if you were forced into it due to terrible symptoms from your transsexuality, then I think 'unfortunate' is reasonable, with the understanding that the symptoms are lifted.

Just replying to one bit because I need to go out, I will try to reply to the other bit some time. I'm not sure if I explained my point badly or if you missed it but one/both of those things happened

I transitioned because I was dysphoric. I've spent half my life near enough fighting the urge to hack bits of my body off. I'm not denying many trans people experience it as their bodies are the problem because I know too well how that feels. I am lucky to be alive because I wouldn't be if it weren't for two youth workers when I was 15. i know that right now for most trans people it's not at all close to a nose job

But our experiences are shaped by how we understand things and how we are treated which is to do with society. That doesn't mean those feelings and experiences aren't real. But of society and structures were radically different then I'd expect feelings and experiences to be too

It's a slight tangent to the main point but even with those negative experiences I don't find being trans unfortunate. Some stuff I wish didn't happen but I am who I am and I like me. A large part of who I am was shaped by the experience of being trans

[lightburns]

(Original post by BKS)
Just replying to one bit because I need to go out, I will try to reply to the other bit some time. I'm not sure if I explained my point badly or if you missed it but one/both of those things happened

I transitioned because I was dysphoric. I've spent half my life near enough fighting the urge to hack bits of my body off. I'm not denying many trans people experience it as their bodies are the problem because I know too well how that feels. I am lucky to be alive because I wouldn't be if it weren't for two youth workers when I was 15. i know that right now for most trans people it's not at all close to a nose job

But our experiences are shaped by how we understand things and how we are treated which is to do with society. That doesn't mean those feelings and experiences aren't real. But of society and structures were radically different then I'd expect feelings and experiences to be too

It's a slight tangent to the main point but even with those negative experiences I don't find being trans unfortunate. Some stuff I wish didn't happen but I am who I am and I like me. A large part of who I am was shaped by the experience of being trans

Hmm, on further thinking.... I think we must be flying past each other. I'm actually thinking that our core standings on the issue is pretty similar, but we have different priorities. Different focuses on our replies just make us sound like we are opposing one another!

"I've spent half my life near enough fighting the urge to hack bits of my body off"
This is all I mean by 'disorder' and 'unfortunate'. That's not the healthiest way to be, and it's not the peak of mental functioning. I am not for a moment meaning that it's a permanent state, that transpeople are nuts, or anything like that. So we are defining the same thing in different terms; I call it a mental disorder, you don't. So we don't disagree on what transsexuality fundamentally is, I don't think, just the boundaries of the definition of 'mental disorder'.

On social issues - ah got you. That is possible, but it's hard to tell. So I can't really comment. Your point flew by me before.

On unfortunate - yes, after the suicidalness, the self-harm, the disgust, the etc. etc. etc. have ended, many people don't feel that it is unfortunate at all.
I was actually in a discussion a few days ago about whether people hate being trans. Some people felt it had made them a better person, some people like the joy of discovering their identity, some people love being part of the community. So it is not permanently 'unfortunate'; this was my point flying by you. I only meant it in the short-term of why an individual should be able to get treatment on the NHS.

As you've said your personal experience, here's what I said on that recent conversation I mentioned. Lets just say I have no desire to be like this. Rather bitter about the whole affair - for me it is permanently unfortunate, even though gender now takes a backseat and has little relation to my life any more.

(Original post by me)
I hate being trans. I have intense jealousy of cispeople. I would pay an arm to change the past and not go through all of this, and just be cis instead.

[Eien]

I don't believe that transsexuality is essentially a mental disorder - it can certainly create mental disorders such as depression, body dysmorphia, etc, but at its fundamental core I believe that it is a physical disorder. The key word is believe as nobody is completely sure of the true causes, beyond theory and conjecture. However, it appears that from observation, my own experience included, that in most cases the fundamental core identity (irrelevant of masculine or feminine behaviours or sexual orientation) which is associated with the brain, mismatches with the physical body, and in most cases, no psychological intervention truly cures the dysphoria. In the cases that it does, one may be able to suggest that somebody had "gender identity disorder" based on a type of mental disturbance or traumatic experience.

However, for the majority, such intervention fails, yet physical intervention, with surgery and hormone treatment, rids the primary sources of dysphoria and forms part of the resolution of gender dysphoria. To me, this places the emphasis upon it being a physical disorder, possibly even a form of intersex, if we assume that a brain structured more like a female brain is in a male body, or vice versa.

As for being trans, I err towards the side of viewing transness in a positive light, or perhaps more as a double-edged sword. The outside external issues of transitioning were nothing compared to the internal war inside my head, and that would not be something I would like to repeat, but through this process I have come to a sense of truth and awareness in my identity that I don't know I would have achieved had I not been born trans. Perhaps the fact that I no longer look or sound 'trans' (and don't seem to be read as trans, to my knowledge) means I am more accepted by mainstream society and can be more philosophical about it, whereas I may be otherwise yearning more to have never been born trans.

[Storme]

Hi everybody!

Gender and sexuality identity
Biologically I'm female, but I self-identify as androgynous - that said, I don't care about labels, I am what I am! I chose to have short hair and dress in boys' clothes because that's what I prefer, but I don't want to become male and I don't deliberately try to look like one - although I "pass" pretty well - probably because I'm only 16 and look younger.
I'm attracted to boys in a romantic but non-sexual way, so I guess that makes me asexual. The idea of sex doesn't freak me out, and I'm open to things maybe changing in the future, but it's not something that I have any interest in at the m

Preferred pronouns
I really don't care tbh. Strangers often think I'm a boy, so I get "he" quite often. People who know I'm (biologically) female call me "she", which doesn't bother me, although I resent being called a girl. My mum (who is weird like that) calls me he at random moments, I think she doesn't even realise. My brother calls me "it", but he's gay and I call him "the fairy" so it's all cool!

Are you out?
I've never actually told people, it's just sort of understood among my friends and family. My mum is awesome- she sometimes calls me her daughter, and sometimes refers to my brother and I as "my sons"- but she's a bit crazy so it's genuinely possible she has forgotten my biological sex
My dad is a more conservative, although he's really understanding and all, I get the sense he's a bit worried about what other people think, because when people think I'm a boy when we're together, he tries to correct them and I'm like - dad, it doesn't matter. I feel a bit sorry for him: two kids and one's gay and the other is gender atypical but I realise how lucky I am to have supportive parents (even if one is essentially a madwoman )

/Surgery?
Nope. I am happy the way I am. The only things I would change about my body is to get rid of my periods (****ing pain in the arse)
I miss being ten and running around topless but I wouldn't bother with getting them cut off.


Anyone else remotely similar to me? Much as people are tolerant, they don't really understand and I don't know any other asexual and/or trans* people.

[Tunguska]

First off, I should start by saying Hi and saying what a brilliant, supportive thread this is!

How would you describe your gender and sexual identity?
Female and male and neither and both, depending on the situation. The default position is neither but I'm biologically male and feel that we all have the possibility of being every gender and sex within us, so it changes. I guess I'm a feminine male most of the time but sometimes I'm more overtly male and there are other times when I'm overtly female. Things like my clothes and even my name change according to this, so it's fluid.

What are your preferred pronouns?

Usually she or he depending on which state I feel I'm in but they also suits me.

Are you out to anyone in real life/offline?

Not as such. Most people who know me see me as an androgynous and experimental bisexual but I don't think anyone realises how deep this stuff goes with me.

Do you have any long-term plans with regards to surgery/hormones/similar?

No. Although I have male genitals, I think I can express my feminine persona enough as it is but my mind might change in the future.

[Storme]

(Original post by Tunguska)
First off, I should start by saying Hi and saying what a brilliant, supportive thread this is!

How would you describe your gender and sexual identity?
Female and male and neither and both, depending on the situation. The default position is neither but I'm biologically male and feel that we all have the possibility of being every gender and sex within us, so it changes. I guess I'm a feminine male most of the time but sometimes I'm more overtly male and there are other times when I'm overtly female. Things like my clothes and even my name change according to this, so it's fluid.

What are your preferred pronouns?

Usually she or he depending on which state I feel I'm in but they also suits me.

Are you out to anyone in real life/offline?

Not as such. Most people who know me see me as an androgynous and experimental bisexual but I don't think anyone realises how deep this stuff goes with me.

Do you have any long-term plans with regards to surgery/hormones/similar?

No. Although I have male genitals, I think I can express my feminine persona enough as it is but my mind might change in the future.

hello and welcome! (not that i'm really the person to welcome you- I'm a newbie here)

I'm androgynous too, but for me it doesn't really change. I'm curious, has anyone else here experienced the same gender fluidity that Tunguska has?

[Tunguska]

Maybe I can welcome you too then!

I'd be interested to hear that too and to see exactly how other people feel androgyny and fluidity.

[Hylean]

So, I tell my mother about being an androgyne/genderfluid and she just looks at me and calls me a man. Interesting response.

[Hylean]

I was discussing this with another member, and we got into the idea about gender and transsexuals.

Why do we associate gender so much with genitalia or body parts?

[Tortious]

(Original post by Hylean)
I was discussing this with another member, and we got into the idea about gender and transsexuals.

Why do we associate gender so much with genitalia or body parts?

I guess because the two align for most people, so it leads to conflation (and, to an extent, the notion of the gender binary, I suppose).

On a slightly different note, this is promising... [/sarcasm]

[fallen_acorns]

(Original post by Tortious)
I guess because the two align for most people, so it leads to conflation (and, to an extent, the notion of the gender binary, I suppose).

On a slightly different note, this is promising... [/sarcasm]

gah.. i should really just stop going on that thread- and responding...

but a small part of me hopes, that just a few people may change their minds, and become more accepting towards trans people...

i dont want everyone to be like: yeah!! id date a trans person (although that would be awesome :P)

Id just like a thread where people said no, or not really... --- instead of: 'ew nooo!, or 'thats ****ing discusting' or 'no way lol.' etc..

[BKS]

oops, forgot to reply to people when I said I would. Maybe will still try to get round to it

(Original post by Hylean)
Why do we associate gender so much with genitalia or body parts?

I think gender expectations arose from sex. Sort of like gender is a cultural interpretation of sex. Any distinction between them may make sense in terms of identity but in terms of their operating in society that are barley distinct

[BKS]

(Original post by Tortious)
I guess because the two align for most people, so it leads to conflation (and, to an extent, the notion of the gender binary, I suppose).

On a slightly different note, this is promising... [/sarcasm]

I choose not to pay attention to that thread. Being asked in theory is very different from a person you know and are starting to like telling you they are trans

[Hylean]

(Original post by Tortious)
I guess because the two align for most people, so it leads to conflation (and, to an extent, the notion of the gender binary, I suppose).

But shouldn't we try to disassociate gender entirely from sex and physical characteristics? In short, destroy the notion of gender altogether? Gender as a construct arose from ideas about sex and roles of the sexes, which we then learnt didn't always equate, and now we've seen that gender is a mutable identity like any other and not dependent on physiology. So, why do we cling to that outmoded representation of gender as being even vaguely based on physiology?

(Original post by fallen_acorns)
gah.. i should really just stop going on that thread- and responding...

but a small part of me hopes, that just a few people may change their minds, and become more accepting towards trans people...

i dont want everyone to be like: yeah!! id date a trans person (although that would be awesome :P)

Id just like a thread where people said no, or not really... --- instead of: 'ew nooo!, or 'thats ****ing discusting' or 'no way lol.' etc..

It's not nice to hear, but that's their point of view, sadly. People will always have such opinions.

(Original post by BKS)
I think gender expectations arose from sex. Sort of like gender is a cultural interpretation of sex. Any distinction between them may make sense in terms of identity but in terms of their operating in society that are barley distinct

Yea, but why are we still clinging to the vague connection? It only muddies the issue between gender, sex and transsexualism. If we got rid of the physical connection to gender, ie. got rid of gender, it would make life a whole lot easier. Trannsexualism being something completely different and not related to gender necessarily.