[malvika111]

(Original post by Newbie123)
I'm pretty sure it's just 320 UMS overall for an A.

I really don't think you should worry if you got 192/200 at AS, lol.

Okay, thank you! Now I'm officially going to stop dwelling and do something... summery.

[ESJWW]

(Original post by malvika111)
We seem to have the same exams! I entirely agree with you - from time to time, I feel like I'm forcing the analysis, and I start making very tenuous connections in a desperate attempt to stay on-task. I think that's why there are so many questions, because you need a broad enough topic to sink your teeth into. Which texts were you doing?

Yes, it's certainly not ideal. OCR should probably consider changing it and I know the exam duration has come under question too. I studied 'Doctor Faustus' and 'The Pardoner's Tale'. To be honest, I believe Shakespeare is far superior, hence my preference for the Othello essay, and there are certain irreconcilable incongruities in the other texts which render comparative essays more difficult. In terms of the grade, I would be very disappointed not to obtain an A overall considering my coursework mark, but I'm resigned to the fact that an A* is beyond me.

[narusku]

(Original post by Newbie123)
How did you argue that Othello was likeable??? He's so unlikeable.

He kills his wife, he's always lamenting his unfortunate position (whining), after he kills Desdemona, and Desdemona - as she dies - says that she killed herself, Othello's like "you heard her".

When he kills Desdemona, he refers to his actions as "justice" (self-righteous) and even just before he kills himself, he's like "I've done the state some service" - massive sense of self-importance.

Not to mention the many death threats he makes throughout the play.

Thanks for telling us the story but we have all read it after all :P

And it's perfectly acceptable to argue against the statement, so long as you have evidence to back up what your saying.

I argued that he was both likeable and dislikeable, using quotes to state that even a modern audience may be more accepting of him than an Elizabethan audience too caught up in stereotypical ideas based upon race and ones of structure rooted in ther view of the chain of being to truly assess him as a character...after all, Iago is the true villain here...need I remind you that he is the one who tainted Othello

[Newbie123]

(Original post by narusku)
Thanks for telling us the story but we have all read it after all :P

And it's perfectly acceptable to argue against the statement, so long as you have evidence to back up what your saying.

I argued that he was both likeable and dislikeable, using quotes to state that even a modern audience may be more accepting of him than an Elizabethan audience too caught up in stereotypical ideas and ones of structure to truly assess him as a character...after all, Iago is the true villain here...need I remind

So what exactly was your argument for Othello being likeable?

I said something along the lines (as a counter-argument) of Othello being likeable initially for his rhetorical skill (with which he "woos" double-D (my name for Desdemona)) and for his heroic characteristics - assured, composed military leader. But then said that these traits disappear over the course of the play as Iago's influence over him grows - making him ultimately unlikeable.

I also said that the fact that he lacks speech for a protagonist - Iago has more lines & soliloquies - means that it's difficult for audiences to form an emotional attachment to the eponymous hero etc.

If you weight it all up, I don't see how he's likeable.

[LeSacMagique]

(Original post by ESJWW)
Yes, it's certainly not ideal. OCR should probably consider changing it and I know the exam duration has come under question too. I studied 'Doctor Faustus' and 'The Pardoner's Tale'. To be honest, I believe Shakespeare is far superior, hence my preference for ther Othello essay, and there are certain irreconcilable incongruities about the other texts which render comparative essays more difficult. In terms of the grade, I would be very disappointed not to obtain an A overall considering my coursework mark, but I'm resigned to the fact that an A* is beyond me.

I really like the style of Section B. It's quite a stimulating way of asking questions which has more in common with degree-level exams where I think it is more the case that you are offered a question and have to decide for yourself what texts you will answer it with. I'm also a bit of a Marlowe fanboy and I just find Othello quite tedious--maybe if we were doing the plays next year's cohort are doing (Antony and Cleopatra!! The Tempest!! those kids won't know how good they've got it) I'd have a different opinion...

[malvika111]

(Original post by narusku)
Thanks for telling us the story but we have all read it after all :P

And it's perfectly acceptable to argue against the statement, so long as you have evidence to back up what your saying.

I argued that he was both likeable and dislikeable, using quotes to state that even a modern audience may be more accepting of him than an Elizabethan audience too caught up in stereotypical ideas based upon race and ones of structure rooted in ther view of the chain of being to truly assess him as a character...after all, Iago is the true villain here...need I remind you that he is the one who tainted Othello

But it's not just Iago's deception but Othello's receptiveness to his deception. His own shortcomings precipitate the tragedy of the play: his innate insecurities as a black man in a white society, as a Moor with a white middle-class wife, are what leaves him so vulnerable to Iago's targeting.

Anyway, how dull would it be if we all had the same answers. THIS IS WHAT ENGLISH IS ABOUT, PEOPLE.

[HolyFuzazzle]

Ahhhh, I needed 100 UMS for an A*, doubt I've got that.
I need a C in this for an A, with some luck will have got that...
But, damn, I knownI've not done well enough for the A* which is really depressing me because I wanted it -.- At least my offer's only an A...

Anyway, I can NEVER guage how I did in these exams... I liked what I was writing in Section A (First Othello question) but no idea if an examiner's going to like it...

Section B essay (sin and punishment for Chaucer/Marlowe) was an incredibly good question but Intotally messed up in the way I answered it... I focused more on sin and there was so much more I wanted to say but I was running out of time and... GAH. Structure wasn't incredible either. I was impressed with what wrote, 5 and a half page on each with tiny handwriting... But I bet it's really awful.

I wish that could have gone better, but I'm happy it's over.

I hate discussing what I write on these exams, as I never seem to write the same things as other people :/ and I feel like mine is all wrong (which it probably is)

[narusku]

(Original post by Newbie123)
So what exactly was your argument for Othello being likeable?

I said something along the lines (as a counter-argument) of Othello being likeable initially for his rhetorical skill (with which he "woos" double-D (my name for Desdemona)) and for his heroic characteristics - assured, composed military leader. But then said that these traits disappear over the course of the play as Iago's influence over him grows - making him ultimately unlikeable.

I also said that the fact that he lacks speech for a protagonist - Iago has more lines & soliloquies - means that it's difficult for audiences to form an emotional attachment to the eponymous hero etc.

If you weight it all up, I don't see how he's likeable.

If memory serves the questions was not how likeable is he..was it not something along the lines of 'too easy to pity and too hard to like?'

Obviously the pity comes from the fact that he himself knows that he is only necessary to the Venetians because of his military prowess, the duke's line to Brabantio, 'your son in law is far more fair than black' shows how the people have a predisposed idea of black people.

His likeablility comes from his capacity for love in his actions towards Desdemona and his men (Cassio) as well as the opinion of him by highstanding members of Venice whom Elizabethan audiences would credit. Obviously, there is plenty of material to argue for the claim that Othello is 'too hard to like' but the question allowed room, I believe anyway, for students to refute it...

As for Iago's lines and sililoquies, I had a fair range of example in my head of them being allusions to Othello's otherness, his superiority over Cassio, his belief that women are inferior and of course his colluding with the audience by telling his plans to exploit Othello's jealousy. Iago taints Othello, arguably a hero, into becoming a villain as he himself is.

But I'll return to the point: You dont have to see him as likeable - that's your belief, I did think he had many likeable qualities, so I wrote about it, weighing the two together as well as contrating possible opinions of a modern and past audience... There you go, a nice mini essay

[narusku]

(Original post by malvika111)
But it's not just Iago's deception but Othello's receptiveness to his deception. His own shortcomings precipitate the tragedy of the play: his innate insecurities as a black man in a white society, as a Moor with a white middle-class wife, are what leaves him so vulnerable to Iago's targeting.

I couldn't agree with you more! Which is why I included that in my answer

(Original post by malvika111)
Anyway, how dull would it be if we all had the same answers. THIS IS WHAT ENGLISH IS ABOUT, PEOPLE.

Well put.

[Newbie123]

(Original post by narusku)
If memory serves the questions was not how likeable is he..was it not something along the lines of 'too easy to pity and too hard to like?'

Obviously the pity comes from the fact that he himself knows that he is only necessary to the Venetians because of his military prowess, the duke's line to Brabantio, 'your son in law is far more fair than black' shows how the people have a predisposed idea of black people.

His likeablility comes from his capacity for love in his actions towards Desdemona and his men (Cassio) as well as the opinion of him by highstanding members of Venice whom Elizabethan audiences would credit. Obviously, there is plenty of material to argue for the claim that Othello is 'too hard to like' but the question allowed room, I believe anyway, for students to refute it...

As for Iago's lines and sililoquies, I had a fair range of example in my head of them being allusions to Othello's otherness, his superiority over Cassio, his belief that women are inferior and of course his colluding with the audience by telling his plans to exploit Othello's jealousy. Iago taints Othello, arguably a hero, into becoming a villain as he himself is.

But I'll return to the point: You dont have to see him as likeable - that's your belief, I did think he had many likeable qualities, so I wrote about it, weighing the two together as well as contrating possible opinions of a modern and past audience... There you go, a nice mini essay

Hmmmmmmm (I would stroke my beard if I had one),

when does Othello show his capacity for love? Surely Othello undermines his own supposed capacity for love when he callously kills Desdemona in the name of "justice"?

As for the Iago tainting Othello - that brings up that classic argument - is the evil already in Othello, with Iago just proving to be an instigator, or does Iago imbue Othello with the hatred & anger he displays in the later acts?

I commend you for going (slightly) against the grain.

[LeSacMagique]

(Original post by malvika111)
But it's not just Iago's deception but Othello's receptiveness to his deception. His own shortcomings precipitate the tragedy of the play: his innate insecurities as a black man in a white society, as a Moor with a white middle-class wife, are what leaves him so vulnerable to Iago's targeting.

Anyway, how dull would it be if we all had the same answers. THIS IS WHAT ENGLISH IS ABOUT, PEOPLE.

(Original post by Newbie123)
x

I argued for an Othello that is not only easy to like but is easy to admire and respect. I don't think anyone will doubt that these qualities apply to him before Act 3: he is a level-headed leader of men, an exotic poet, a man of action who has a strong sense of duty to the state as well as a strong Christian ethic. My take is that his 'fatal flaw' is his 'free and open nature', an emotional naivete that makes him uniquely vulnerable to the machinations of Iago (after all, even Roderigo eventually smells the rat). When it all falls apart and he murders Desdemona his response is entirely understandable: he is a military man unused to the ways of love and so the only way he manages to cope with it is to re-frame the entire affair in the grand, poetic but military terms with which he so entranced Desdemona and the audience in the first place. His 'blame shifting' or 'self justification' is not the result of any malice or any real character flaw on his part--he simply doesn't know how to handle the situation because of the kind of life he has been forced to lead by cruel fate. He is a victim of his own circumstances and as far as I am concerned entirely likeable and even admirable for it.

[ESJWW]

(Original post by LeSacMagique)
I really like the style of Section B. It's quite a stimulating way of asking questions which has more in common with degree-level exams where I think it is more the case that you are offered a question and have to decide for yourself what texts you will answer it with. I'm also a bit of a Marlowe fanboy and I just find Othello quite tedious--maybe if we were doing the plays next year's cohort are doing (Antony and Cleopatra!! The Tempest!! those kids won't know how good they've got it) I'd have a different opinion...

Fair enough, everybody is entitled to their opinion and I'm not trying to blame the form either. I think Othello is more profound and nuanced than many people give it credit for, but I agree that Antony and Cleopatra would have been a delight to study.

[Newbie123]

(Original post by LeSacMagique)
I argued for an Othello that is not only easy to like but is easy to admire and respect. I don't think anyone will doubt that these qualities apply to him before Act 3: he is a level-headed leader of men, an exotic poet, a man of action who has a strong sense of duty to the state as well as a strong Christian ethic. My take is that his 'fatal flaw' is his 'free and open nature', an emotional naivete that makes him uniquely vulnerable to the machinations of Iago (after all, even Roderigo eventually smells the rat). When it all falls apart and he murders Desdemona his response is entirely understandable: he is a military man unused to the ways of love and so the only way he manages to cope with it is to re-frame the entire affair in the grand, poetic but military terms with which he so entranced Desdemona and the audience in the first place. His 'blame shifting' or 'self justification' is not the result of any malice or any real character flaw on his part--he simply doesn't know how to handle the situation because of the kind of life he has been forced to lead by cruel fate. He is a victim of his own circumstances and as far as I am concerned entirely likeable and even admirable for it.

Ah, that's the A.C. Bradley view - Othello's only flaw being that he trusts too greatly.

I think the view that Iago is some Machiavelian evil mastermind is flawed, seeing as he improvises on various occasions throughout the play - in Act I he essentially tried to snitch on Othello to Brabantio, then after getting Cassio fired and seeing how much his reputation meant to him - "Reputation! Reputation! O my reputation!" - it's only then that Iago starts to consider using Cassio in his schemes, and we also see when Othello demands that Iago provide "ocular proof" - and it's very apparent in that scene that Iago is doing things off-the-cuff, as he manages to weasel his way out of that by using reverse psychology.

I talked about Othello's humble origins & his predilection for dealing in absolutes (a result of his military background), but this makes him a pathetic figure, not a likeable one.

The main positive traits that Othello displays are all but gone by the play's conclusion (this change is ominously alluded to when he says "Othello's occupation is gone"), his rhetoric becomes much darker - with references to Hell, and "strumpets". And I don't think you can say that his murder of Desdemona is "entirely understandable". Shakespeare even makes it explicit that it's entirely NOT understandable as Desdemona says she dies "a guiltless death" - and seeing as she's probably the most virtuous character in the whole play, Othello's murder is an even more egregious violation, not to mention that to Shakespearean audiences, Othello, a Moor, killing a young, beautiful Venetian woman wouldn't have gone down to well.

Othello is arrogant, and as Leavis said, he's prone to melodrama. His positive traits are not only outweighed by negatives, but also erode over the course of the play - hence, he's unlikeable IMO........................

[LeSacMagique]

(Original post by Newbie123)
Ah, that's the A.C. Bradley view - Othello's only flaw being that he trusts too greatly.

I think the view that Iago is some Machiavelian evil mastermind is flawed, seeing as he improvises on various occasions throughout the play - in Act I he essentially tried to snitch on Othello to Brabantio, then after getting Cassio fired and seeing how much his reputation meant to him - "Reputation! Reputation! O my reputation!" - it's only then that Iago starts to consider using Cassio in his schemes, and we also see when Othello demands that Iago provide "ocular proof" - and it's very apparent in that scene that Iago is doing things off-the-cuff, as he manages to weasel his way out of that by using reverse psychology.

I talked about Othello's humble origins & his predilection for dealing in absolutes (a result of his military background), but this makes him a pathetic figure, not a likeable one.

The main positive traits that Othello displays are all but gone by the play's conclusion (this change is ominously alluded to when he says "Othello's occupation is gone"), his rhetoric becomes much darker - with references to Hell, and "strumpets". And I don't think you can say that his murder of Desdemona is "entirely understandable". Shakespeare even makes it explicit that it's entirely NOT understandable as Desdemona says she dies "a guiltless death" - and seeing as she's probably the most virtuous character in the whole play, Othello's murder is an even more egregious violation, not to mention that to Shakespearean audiences, Othello, a Moor, killing a young, beautiful Venetian woman wouldn't have gone down to well.

Othello is arrogant, and as Leavis said, he's prone to melodrama. His positive traits are not only outweighed by negatives, but also erode over the course of the play - hence, he's unlikeable IMO........................

I accepted that the traits that make Othello so noble are gone by the end of the play but argued that that is due to the machinations of Iago and is therefore one of the reasons why the tragedy is so very effective. Iago is improvisatory, yes, but he is improvisatory in a seriously brilliant way. Act 3 Scene 3 is great: I don't think the mind-games contained in the famous 'temptation' are the work of an incompetent.

[thethinker]

(Original post by LeSacMagique)
I argued for an Othello that is not only easy to like but is easy to admire and respect. I don't think anyone will doubt that these qualities apply to him before Act 3: he is a level-headed leader of men, an exotic poet, a man of action who has a strong sense of duty to the state as well as a strong Christian ethic. My take is that his 'fatal flaw' is his 'free and open nature', an emotional naivete that makes him uniquely vulnerable to the machinations of Iago (after all, even Roderigo eventually smells the rat). When it all falls apart and he murders Desdemona his response is entirely understandable: he is a military man unused to the ways of love and so the only way he manages to cope with it is to re-frame the entire affair in the grand, poetic but military terms with which he so entranced Desdemona and the audience in the first place. His 'blame shifting' or 'self justification' is not the result of any malice or any real character flaw on his part--he simply doesn't know how to handle the situation because of the kind of life he has been forced to lead by cruel fate. He is a victim of his own circumstances and as far as I am concerned entirely likeable and even admirable for it.

I completely disagree with this. Being a 'military man' does not excuse him from murdering his wife and having the cheek to view himself as the victim. Whilst it is admirable that he can occupy a high position in society as a black man, using his past to win favour with the Venetians, once isolated from that society, his true nature comes to the fore. As Marilyn French argues, Iago could not influence Othello if they do not share the same value structure, one that does not place emphasis on mercy or forgiveness. Desdemona on the other hand is the only innocent character in the play, though annoyingly she is pathetically obedient to the last. I don't think that his past excuses his actions; such deterministic views remove the whole idea of agency or personal responsibility (though that's a separate philosophical point). At the end, he's more concerned about his story being delivered and his assertion that he's not jealous is ridiculous.

[Tsunami2011]

I'm not even sure what Othello does that is heroic. He seems to assume that role at the beginning of the play, and just goes downhill from thereDon't really see what aspects of his actions make him heroic, considering that Iago is soon enough able to poison his delight.

[LeSacMagique]

(Original post by thethinker)
I completely disagree with this. Being a 'military man' does not excuse him from murdering his wife and having the cheek to view himself as the victim. Whilst it is admirable that he can occupy a high position in society as a black man, using his past to win favour with the Venetians, once isolated from that society, his true nature comes to the fore. As Marilyn French argues, Iago could not influence Othello if they do not share the same value structure, one that does not place emphasis on mercy or forgiveness. Desdemona on the other hand is the only innocent character in the play, though annoyingly she is pathetically obedient to the last. I don't think that his past excuses his actions; such deterministic views remove the whole idea of agency or personal responsibility (though that's a separate philosophical point). At the end, he's more concerned about his story being delivered and his assertion that he's not jealous is ridiculous.

It's the standard argument about whether Othello's a good guy who gets corrupted or a typically savage Moor whose pretence of Christian respectability is eroded by Iago. Yes, OK, Iago and Othello share a pretty misogynistic take on cuckoldry, but I don't think that you can blame Othello particularly deeply for this since there was a lot of it about at the time. I don't think that his final speech is just a 'story' he wants to be delivered for the sake of saving face. By symbolically killing himself in the same way he once killed the 'malignant Turk' he does something a thousand times more forceful than any explicit apology he could come up with: he acknowledges that he has gone wrong in such a way that he himself is now 'turned Turk'. Maybe we can fault him in not being more open in admitting to his guilt: but that final act of his is moving in a way that forces us to at least pity him.

[Gilsenan]

Sat the OCR Lit exam today - my circumstances are that I need 31-35/60 in this exam (raw) to get an A overall in Lit. I started with section B and it was OK, probably got 20 plus. However, I COMPLETELY screwed up the Othello question - I did question a even though my essay was SO MUCH MORE relevant to question B. I have no idea why I did this, exam pressure I guess, and a lot of my essay really wasn't fantastically relevant to the question. I never even considered if Othello was a hero or not. Will I still pick up marks for hitting the A0s, although a lot of it was only slightly relevant?

Stressing so I'll include what I wrote:

- Started with how Othello is 'alienated' from society due to race etc. Context plus the odd critic.
- Talked about how Othello lives by a set of stories
- Talked a lot about how Iago makes the audience complicit, and controls the play.
- Talked about masculine qualities of Othello; he immortalizes himself as one of his stories
- Talked about how perhaps the play is not a real occurrence but the manifestation of the conflict in Othello's mind between domesticity and the 'war-like' side, and this is piteous.

I barely made any good references to the question here, no reasons why we may like him, and no mention of him as a 'hero'. Used lots of critics and a decent amount of context, and quotes. Ideas?

[Newbie123]

(Original post by Gilsenan)
Stressing so I'll include what I wrote:

- Started with how Othello is 'alienated' from society due to race etc. Context plus the odd critic.
- Talked about how Othello lives by a set of stories
- Talked a lot about how Iago makes the audience complicit, and controls the play.
- Talked about masculine qualities of Othello; he immortalizes himself as one of his stories
- Talked about how perhaps the play is not a real occurrence but the manifestation of the conflict in Othello's mind between domesticity and the 'war-like' side, and this is piteous.

I barely made any good references to the question here, no reasons why we may like him, and no mention of him as a 'hero'. Used lots of critics and a decent amount of context, and quotes. Ideas?

Your essay definitely seems more to do with 3b) than 3a) but I think you're worrying far too much (especially considering you're virtually guaranteed an A). The "hero" part of the question just adds another dimension to the question and provides students with a potential avenue that they could explore - whether he's a tragic hero or not, Leavis/Bradley, but all of that stuff would naturally be mentioned if you're talking about Othello being likeable/unlikeable and pitiable/not pitiable, seeing as this would require an analysis of Othello's good, heroic virtues, as well as the flaws that suggest he's not a hero. So, basically, I don't think the "hero" part is absolutely essential to the question, seeing as the question intrinsically involves evaluation of Othello's character.

Well, you'll get marks for AO1 regardless, as long as you're coherent in your writing, you said you included context - which is pretty much the same regardless of which question you chose - so you'll be getting marks for AO4, but obviously the main to AOs in section A are 2 & 3.

I think you shouldn't worry too much about not considering counter-arguments, because if you used a lot of critics, like you said, than that also counts as AO3 - different interpretations.

[Gilsenan]

(Original post by Newbie123)
Your essay definitely seems more to do with 3b) than 3a) but I think you're worrying far too much (especially considering you're virtually guaranteed an A). The "hero" part of the question just adds another dimension to the question and provides students with a potential avenue that they could explore - whether he's a tragic hero or not, Leavis/Bradley, but all of that stuff would naturally be mentioned if you're talking about Othello being likeable/unlikeable and pitiable/not pitiable, seeing as this would require an analysis of Othello's good, heroic virtues, as well as the flaws that suggest he's not a hero. So, basically, I don't think the "hero" part is absolutely essential to the question, seeing as the question intrinsically involves evaluation of Othello's character.

Well, you'll get marks for AO1 regardless, as long as you're coherent in your writing, you said you included context - which is pretty much the same regardless of which question you chose - so you'll be getting marks for AO4, but obviously the main to AOs in section A are 2 & 3.

I think you shouldn't worry too much about not considering counter-arguments, because if you used a lot of critics, like you said, than that also counts as AO3 - different interpretations.

Thanks - will I still get A02 marks for quotes etc? I just barely answered the question, no idea why - gave no reason why we would like him either.