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The Liverpool FC Thread VII

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    (Original post by lifeshard)
    No it's not. It's disappointing not to get CL but to say winning the FA cup would be a disappointment is just strange :confused: The two are not even mutually exclusive. This either/or thing is just so puzzling. It's not like to win the FA cup you forfiet top4 or to finish in the top4 you have to forfiet cup runs. You don't. And big teams should for any credit, be doing both.

    I suppose you'd say winning the Champions League is a disappointment too if the winner didn't get top4 and wasn't allowed to compete for next years.

    Wierd.

    I think the only reason finishing in top4 for Liverpool is probably more important is because we've been out of it for a couple of seasons. But if Chelsea miss out on top4 (it will only be a slim margin) and then don't win the CL. The fact that they won a piece of silverware and got to another final (that being the Champions League final) would render their season 100x better than Arsenals. Even if they haven't got champions league football for next season.
    I know the two aren't mutually exclusive. That's my ****ing point :facepalm2:.

    To say your season has been 'successful' (for a big club) you must qualify for the CL and win a some sort of silverware.

    It is sufficient (by meaning that it's not good but neither bad) to be in the top 4.

    However, it is insufficient to win any trophy without qualifying for the CL. Since winning the league and winning the CL allow you a safe passage into the CL, those trophies are redundant in this argument. However, when considering the FA cup and Carling cup, they are not as good as getting CL qualification. Simple.

    They are only acceptable to a big club when they are already in the top 4. Anything less than that personally is a unsuccessful season.

    I thought this point would make complete sense to a Liverpool fan. Clearly not. It's not like you're a small club where it would make sense to grab onto any trophies you can get, you're clearly not but some of you have a 'small team' mentality.
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    (Original post by So Instinct)
    Did you tell us so?
    Yes I did. Check back if you like.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    I know the two aren't mutually exclusive. That's my ****ing point :facepalm2:.

    To say your season has been 'successful' (for a big club) you must qualify for the CL and win a some sort of silverware.

    It is sufficient (by meaning that it's not good but neither bad) to be in the top 4.

    However, it is insufficient to win any trophy without qualifying for the CL. Since winning the league and winning the CL allow you a safe passage into the CL, those trophies are redundant in this argument. However, when considering the FA cup and Carling cup, they are not as good as getting CL qualification. Simple.

    They are only acceptable to a big club when they are already in the top 4. Anything less than that personally is a unsuccessful season.

    I thought this point would make complete sense to a Liverpool fan. Clearly not. It's not like you're a small club where it would make sense to grab onto any trophies you can get, you're clearly not but some of you have a 'small team' mentality.

    I was just saying that I do not get it when people say ''would you rather win a trophy or finish in the top4?" when the two are not reliant on eachother!

    If we had won the FA cup i'd still be delighted. I'd just never be unhappy with a trophy. I don't get people that say ''I'm not happy we won the FA cup because we're not in top4". You should be saying ''I'm happy we won the FA cup but not happy we didn't qualify for top4". Simple as that.

    It implies that you think finishing in the top4 and qualifying for the Champions League is the be all end all of football when your A FAN. Not a director of football or finances. A fan! A gooner! You want to watch your captain climb them steps and lift the trophy! You can't ever claim to be unhappy about that. That's what football IS.

    There are teams that are consistently in CL year in year out, albiet usually from the lesser leagues but you also get the Valencias but they don't win anything.

    I don't have a small club mentality. I just recognize the club is struggling. It won't be considered ''not struggling'' untill we are contending for the title once more. It is a testament to how big a club Liverpool is that we could have ended this year with a cup double and a lot would still consider it a failure.
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    You've still got massive global appeal, with better commercial income than everyone but Utd. Yous should be touring Asia more, to keep that fanbase in place during the leaner years.
    Yeah but being in the top 4 would make us a lot more attractive to potential sponsors.

    Hmm, I was impressed by our Asian fanbase last year. I think 70k turned out to watch us train in Malaysia. But we're touring the US this year. Makes sense to try and tap into the market over there what with our owners etc.
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    (Original post by Pn94)
    Yeah but being in the top 4 would make us a lot more attractive to potential sponsors.

    Hmm, I was impressed by our Asian fanbase last year. I think 70k turned out to watch us train in Malaysia. But we're touring the US this year. Makes sense to try and tap into the market over there what with our owners etc.
    I honestly think we'll be trying to sign Clint Dempsey purely for commercial reasons because he's considered "Americas best player". The owners seem to be obsessed with generating commercial revenue in the US when you think about the selling of shares to Lebron James, the cameo on American Idol, the kit deal with an American brand, the pre season tour of North America and the documentary series airing on Fox.

    I don't want him though. Feels like it would be setting ourselves up for disappointment.
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    (Original post by lifeshard)
    It's an achievement to win the FA cup. For Chelsea as it was for Portsmouth. It's not an achievement for Chelsea to come 6th as you want top 4. There is no need for EITHER/OR. You should be proud of your team and enjoy the moment.

    Also, winning the Champions League does not show Chelsea to be the best team in Europe. Paha. Far from it.
    Yeah, enjoy the moment, like you guys are enjoying winning a league cup this season. :rolleyes: for this to be called a successful season is papering over the cracks, same for you guys.

    I should be proud if my team got relegated too and won the league cup like birmingham did too. There is a difference, we beat the best sides in europe over two legs in every round until the final. Get the second hardest group stage, get the second hardest second seed and face the best team in the world and beat them over two legs.

    We faced championship sides/soon to be a championship side until the semi final, we then faced a tottenham team full of fatigue who've crashed since harry was thinking about the england job and faced a liverpool team that are 8th in the league and had a terrible season by their standards and todays game epitomized all your problems. You play terrible in the first half and step up in the last 30 mins. What a great FA cup. Would rather face bayern and win the CL in all honesty.

    Who is the best team in europe this season then? Real madrid, barca, bayern? 2 of the teams are second in their league while the 3rd only have a league title to show for such a great season. We have just as much of a claim than they do if we win the CL. We'll be in the CL next season too if we win it and have the joy of beating the best teams in europe on the way.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    I know the two aren't mutually exclusive. That's my ****ing point :facepalm2:.

    To say your season has been 'successful' (for a big club) you must qualify for the CL and win a some sort of silverware.

    It is sufficient (by meaning that it's not good but neither bad) to be in the top 4.

    However, it is insufficient to win any trophy without qualifying for the CL. Since winning the league and winning the CL allow you a safe passage into the CL, those trophies are redundant in this argument. However, when considering the FA cup and Carling cup, they are not as good as getting CL qualification. Simple.

    They are only acceptable to a big club when they are already in the top 4. Anything less than that personally is a unsuccessful season.

    I thought this point would make complete sense to a Liverpool fan. Clearly not. It's not like you're a small club where it would make sense to grab onto any trophies you can get, you're clearly not but some of you have a 'small team' mentality.
    Thank ****. The sooner liverpool fans realize this, the quicker they realize why half the teams in the prem find them a laughing stock this season. I want to face the biggest teams in europe, the barcelona's, the bayerns, the madrids and dortmunds.

    I don't want to be playing sporting lisbon on a thursday night and I sure as **** don't want to play in england and not be in europe. Although I don't know which one is worse for a big club like chelsea/arsenal/united/city, being in the europa league or not being in europe at all...does anyone know the finances of being in the europa league, I know you get 20 million for the CL but what about europa league?
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    (Original post by lifeshard)
    I honestly think we'll be trying to sign Clint Dempsey purely for commercial reasons because he's considered "Americas best player". The owners seem to be obsessed with generating commercial revenue in the US when you think about the selling of shares to Lebron James, the cameo on American Idol, the kit deal with an American brand, the pre season tour of North America and the documentary series airing on Fox.

    I don't want him though. Feels like it would be setting ourselves up for disappointment.
    Tbf he'd be a decent signing for £10m or under. A good replacement for Kuyt and I believe he's scored around 20 goals this season? As long as he's not our main signing and we're not relying on him massively then I'd have him, especially when you factor in the added commercial value.
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    The big question now is what will happen with Dalglish.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    Thank ****. The sooner liverpool fans realize this, the quicker they realize why half the teams in the prem find them a laughing stock this season. I want to face the biggest teams in europe, the barcelona's, the bayerns, the madrids and dortmunds.

    I don't want to be playing sporting lisbon on a thursday night and I sure as **** don't want to play in england and not be in europe. Although I don't know which one is worse for a big club like chelsea/arsenal/united/city, being in the europa league or not being in europe at all...does anyone know the finances of being in the europa league, I know you get 20 million for the CL but what about europa league?
    Winners of the CL get up to £30m or so. EL gets £6.5m, so you're looking at 20% of the revenue or an 80% drop from the CL.
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    (Original post by Pn94)
    The big question now is what will happen with Dalglish.
    I think he should be sacked in all honesty. The FA cup would have given him more time though, but that's obviously not what FSG wanted this season, they wanted a good run in the league and a CL spot/top 4 with possibly a league cup on the way. That would have been a great season for liverpool.
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    (Original post by lifeshard)
    I was just saying that I do not get it when people say ''would you rather win a trophy or finish in the top4?" when the two are not reliant on eachother!

    If we had won the FA cup i'd still be delighted. I'd just never be unhappy with a trophy. I don't get people that say ''I'm not happy we won the FA cup because we're not in top4". You should be saying ''I'm happy we won the FA cup but not happy we didn't qualify for top4". Simple as that.

    It implies that you think finishing in the top4 and qualifying for the Champions League is the be all end all of football when your A FAN. Not a director of football or finances. A fan! A gooner! You want to watch your captain climb them steps and lift the trophy! You can't ever claim to be unhappy about that. That's what football IS.

    There are teams that are consistently in CL year in year out, albiet usually from the lesser leagues but you also get the Valencias but they don't win anything.

    I don't have a small club mentality. I just recognize the club is struggling. It won't be considered ''not struggling'' untill we are contending for the title once more. It is a testament to how big a club Liverpool is that we could have ended this year with a cup double and a lot would still consider it a failure.
    It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

    This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

    It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

    Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.
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    I would definitely rather see Newcastle win the FA Cup than finish top 4.

    :moon:
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

    This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

    It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

    Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.
    :lolwut:

    :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by jam277)
    Yeah, enjoy the moment, like you guys are enjoying winning a league cup this season. :rolleyes: for this to be called a successful season is papering over the cracks, same for you guys.

    I should be proud if my team got relegated too and won the league cup like birmingham did too. There is a difference, we beat the best sides in europe over two legs in every round until the final. Get the second hardest group stage, get the second hardest second seed and face the best team in the world and beat them over two legs.

    We faced championship sides/soon to be a championship side until the semi final, we then faced a tottenham team full of fatigue who've crashed since harry was thinking about the england job and faced a liverpool team that are 8th in the league and had a terrible season by their standards and todays game epitomized all your problems. You play terrible in the first half and step up in the last 30 mins. What a great FA cup. Would rather face bayern and win the CL in all honesty.

    Who is the best team in europe this season then? Real madrid, barca, bayern? 2 of the teams are second in their league while the 3rd only have a league title to show for such a great season. We have just as much of a claim than they do if we win the CL. We'll be in the CL next season too if we win it and have the joy of beating the best teams in europe on the way.
    Uh, you faced teams Chelsea would be favourites against up until the semi final where you parked the bus for both legs and were hella lucky. Credit to you it was a disciplined performance and heartening to see 10 man Chelsea knock out THE giants that are Barcelona who have monopolized the European cup since 2008 but you aren't the best in Europe and you won't be considered that even if you do manage to win it. You weren't better than Barcelona. The heavens smiled on you. That's about it. Arsenal were knocked out by them last season but at least attempted to play football and go toe to toe with them and were extremely close to going through and arguably fell down only because of that ridiculous RVP sending off. I would say Arsenals performance and 3 nil drubbing of AC Milan at the Emirates was much more impressive than you're approach to the Barcelona game. Just because you beat Barca does not mean you are the best team in Europe. If you win the Champions League it doesn't mean you are the best team in Europe. How dumb and devoid of any footballing knowledge are you? We won the Champions League in 2005, were we the best team in Europe? We weren't even the fourth best team in England. Niether are you.


    Also, I never argued winning the FA cup was better than winning the Champions League. I never said winning the league cup would deem this a successful season either. Just make up stuff as you go along, go ahead.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    I think he should be sacked in all honesty. The FA cup would have given him more time though, but that's obviously not what FSG wanted this season, they wanted a good run in the league and a CL spot/top 4 with possibly a league cup on the way. That would have been a great season for liverpool.
    I think he may be moved upstairs, surely FSG will class this season as a major failure. Tbh I'm indifferent, part of me wants stability and part of me thinks we need a managerial change.
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    (Original post by TM94)
    :lolwut:

    :facepalm2:
    What's so "facepalm" about it? It's an opinion ffs.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    It makes sense this season as the likes of Arsenal, Newcastle and Tottenham could end up in the top 4 without a trophy whilst Liverpool and Chelsea have won one. It makes for interesting discussion to compare the achievements between the 5 teams.

    This is where I am different to most fans. I don't care much for trophies. I only became a Gooner recently (didn't switch team before you ask) and have never seen us lift a trophy or was able to experience the Invincibles. My values are based on what I enjoy and I love watching my team in the top competition in Europe competing amongst the best. I thoroughly enjoyed my team beating Barca at the Emirates and even Milan. That's what I watch football for. Not for trophies but to watch my team play amazing football with some of the best teams in the world.

    It is clear that the majority of fans rely on trophies to get some sort of achievement from watching football which is clearly a ridiculous fallacy. I know people are going to come up with the argument that if you win trophies you would've inevitably played amazing teams and won some amazing matches and clearly in the domestic cup, it really isn't true anymore. No one tries in Carling cup anymore and the FA has lost any priority it used to have because of the CL. I've said this before and I'll say it again; I don't care if Arsenal never win a trophy during my lifetime, I just want my team to give it 100% whenever they play and make it an entertaining game.

    Football is not all about winning trophies and you'd do well to remember that.
    I guess this is where I differ. You are happy with just rubbing shoulders with the best whereas I want Liverpool to BE THE BEST just like we once were. Just like Arsenal were. You have a defeatist menality and I hope most Arsenal fans are not like you. It would make for a terrible fanbase to say the least.

    I experienced the Invincibles and tell you what it was amazing. Arsenal will always stand out because of that season, those great players. Not losing for 49 games is just :O. Because of this they won trophies they won leagues. They monopolized English football for that time. They didn't just scrape top4 and get knocked out by the first good side they met in the Champions League. THATS what you get remembered for. Winning trophies, setting precedents, breaking records, making history not JUST qualifying for the Champions League!


    I believe Liverpool to be among Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Juventus, Manchester United etc in prestige and I want our football on the pitch to match us. I want us to be in the CL and be feared. Not just be there for the sake of being there like Valencia, Porto, Marseille, Lille etc.

    I would be horrified if Liverpool never won a trophy again in my lifetime and the only thing I ever had to look forward to was a tasty tie in the Champions League whereby I got to say ''we scored a goal against Barcelona, it was a magical moment". Seriously my friend, maybe it's because you've never seen your team win anything you don't know what it feels like but hopefully one day you will and you'll understand saying football is not about winning trophies is on the ridiculous side considering half the reason big clubs are considered big is because of what they have won in the past.
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    Watched the game with my dad and a friend at mine, gutted about the loss. We comforted ourselves by going to watch the Avengers movie.

    I never want to see Spearing in a red shirt again. The lad is garbage. No amount of effort and commitment will make up for that.
    I must admit I said before the game that Andy should start on the bench and i'll admit I was wrong. After 30 minutes though I was crying out for him to be brought on. Suarez couldn't get in the game up top on his own and it was obvious the game was passing us by. A coach like Mourinho would have seen it wasn't working and changed it instantly...Kenny didn't have the balls to do it.

    Downing and Henderson were bloody awful, Bellamy was really off colour, Enrique was bad
    Spearing takes the cake though...diabolical.

    Fair play to Chelsea though, they took their chances when they came and deserved it since we only turned up with 25 minutes left on the clock.
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    (Original post by Pn94)
    The big question now is what will happen with Dalglish.
    I think that is the first question that needs to be answered before we do all these business about buying/selling players. Any other manager would have got the head, people would have been calling for it tbh. So why not Dalglish? I guess because of his past, he should be gone upstairs and not sacked like others would have, I think we need someone new in, because Dalglish's tactics clearly don't work and I don't think he'll improve us next season.

    FSG wanted top 4 and they said that without it, it would be failure. Its obvious we won't get top 4 this season, but I don't know how they'll take League cup win and FA cup runners up. But I think they should just kindly ask him to move aside. Allow someone to rebuild the team and maybe once that is done, put him back on?

    This season I think has been a failure. 1 trophy, a runners up on FA cup, and a midtable. Behind Everton. With the likes of Wigan, West Brom etc beating us. and some even drawing against us.
Updated: May 19, 2012
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