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Fellow Muslims, getting a loan without interest from an Islamic Bank in the UK?

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    (Original post by KingofBling)
    Just get a student loan. There is no interest because what you pay back just adjusts (rises OR falls) with inflation. So, because the loan is adjusted for inflation, you only pay back exactly what you were loaned and not a penny more or less. Even though there is 'interest' and it might appear that you're paying back 'more', you're not. The increases just reflect the declining purchasing power of money over time.
    Once you've graduated the interest increases, higher than that of inflation (which is what it is whilst you're studying).
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Why on earth would it, when paying a fair rent is a perfectly acceptable alternative as it incurs no interest charge?

    As it's ever a question of 'break the interest rule by getting a mortgage or abide by the rule by not having a roof over my head'

    In the Koran, paying a fair rent is an acceptable choice.
    With renting comes the risk of eviction!!
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    Where does it say that? I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything of the sort, just specifically says no interest - end of. Presumably because back then mortgages didn't exist, and the people who created the book weren't foresighted enough to future-proof it.

    Christians have largely got to the point where they are happy to just ignore the bible, and I'm sure the same will happen with Islam eventually (it happens a lot in the West currently - and as the Muslim world becomes more Western, it will increasingly happen there) - it just needs to play catch up.

    In the mean time, they just need to make the personal decision whether to ignore it (either by taking a loan, or one of the ridiculous Islamic equivalents which are exactly the same in all but name) or to abandon education and follow the stupid ruling.

    (Of course, I'm no expert on the matter though).
    Of course you must be familiar with the concept of halal food. Sharia law permits haram food when it is a necessity: "He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], there is no sin upon him".

    On this basis, i think necessity can apply in the context of shelter.

    As you said that you're not an expert in the matter, i don't think you need to advocate the abandoning of Sharia law without studying it. As such, you are doing no more than making ignorant statements
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    Just like any law, Islamic finance is quite complex. Law is full of technicalities, so for posters above that suggest rent sounds like interest then it must be interest shows you how deeply ignorant they are.

    Best thing is to avoid all loans, borrow from family first, but then if you must take one on advice of a trusted scholar. Do your best.
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    (Original post by Playa10)
    With renting comes the risk of eviction!!
    If you don't pay your rent, sure.

    Or perhaps you mean being given notice to quit by the owner? Well, you'll just have to find another property to rent. But quite often you can easily find a property to rent until the day you die, as in most cases a steady rent paying tenant is hard to find, and unless the landlord wants to move in or sell the place, you can stay in your home.

    Just like life, if you choose to play a particular game, you have to play by the rules.

    If you don't want to live by these rules, one of those being unable to pay and charge interest, then don't choose to follow a religion that places those restrictions on you.

    It's that simple.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    If you don't pay your rent, sure.

    Or perhaps you mean being given notice to quit by the owner? Well, you'll just have to find another property to rent. But quite often you can easily find a property to rent until the day you die, as in most cases a steady rent paying tenant is hard to find, and unless the landlord wants to move in or sell the place, you can stay in your home.

    Just like life, if you choose to play a particular game, you have to play by the rules.

    If you don't want to live by these rules, one of those being unable to pay and charge interest, then don't choose to follow a religion that places those restrictions on you.

    It's that simple.

    I am well of the protection afforded by the Rents Act.

    One thing that is clear is that Sharia law, like any other law, has exceptions. One of the exceptions that applies is necessity. The issue of whether necessity applies in the context of mortgage is debateable.

    But as you have acknowledged, a home owner might want to sell his house, which case you will have to move. That is indeed an inconvenience. How often you may have to move is unknown. Whether necessity applies in this instance requires an opinion of a local scholar. I am no real position to rule here due to my limited knowledge in Islam. Given that you're not a scholar, you are also in no position to make judgments. A scholar acts like a judge. He is in a better position to give a ruling.
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    Just like any law, Islamic finance is quite complex. Law is full of technicalities, so for posters above that suggest rent sounds like interest then it must be interest shows you how deeply ignorant they are.
    How does rent sound like interest? Paying a fair rent for a property you are occupying is permitted in Islam. What is not permitted is charging or paying interest to gain a financial advantage.

    Some people think that it is OK to use loopholes get around the Islamic restrictions on paying interest by lying to themselves that what a non muslim would be paying in mortgage plus interest can be combined and given a different name of 'rent'. Regardless of whether or not the amounts the muslim is paying in 'rent' sum to what the non muslim would be paying as mortgage plus interest.

    Islamic law is full of technicalities? So I suppose you mean two people interpret one thing in not only different, but completely opposite ways and can still both be right?

    (Original post by silent ninja)
    Best thing is to avoid all loans, borrow from family first, but then if you must take one on advice of a trusted scholar. Do your best.
    Huh? You just said to avoid all loans? Why is it that the interpretation of a 'trusted scholar' can change what we all know (and you know well) is written? Is this more of the 'technicalities' point that I touched on above? What if one 'trusted scholar' says no? Can he keep looking for other 'trusted scholars' until he can find one that says yes?
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    (Original post by Playa10)
    I am well of the protection afforded by the Rents Act.

    One thing that is clear is that Sharia law, like any other law, has exceptions. One of the exceptions that applies is necessity. The issue of whether necessity applies in the context of mortgage is debateable.
    'Necessity' has many meanings. It is open to interpretation, depending on the situation. However, it is not a necessity, even in England in this day and age to have a student loan, mortgage or any other situation which involves charging or paying interest. It is a lifestyle choice, depending on personal motivations, pure and simple. Just like many other lifestyle choices that depend on personal motivation, it is prohibited by the Koran.

    (Original post by Playa10)
    But as you have acknowledged, a home owner might want to sell his house, which case you will have to move. That is indeed an inconvenience. How often you may have to move is unknown. Whether necessity applies in this instance requires an opinion of a local scholar. I am no real position to rule here due to my limited knowledge in Islam. Given that you're not a scholar, you are also in no position to make judgments. A scholar acts like a judge. He is in a better position to give a ruling.
    You mean that in spite of what is clearly written in the Koran, where something Mohammed or ancient scholars said contradicts with something you want to do, you can find a man with a similar point of view, judge him a scholar and get him to give you a 'free pass' to do just as you like, so you can do it guilt free?

    What happened to 'Islam is perfect already and need not be changed'?
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    'Necessity' has many meanings. It is open to interpretation, depending on the situation. However, it is not a necessity, even in England in this day and age to have a student loan, mortgage or any other situation which involves charging or paying interest. It is a lifestyle choice, depending on personal motivations, pure and simple. Just like many other lifestyle choices that depend on personal motivation, it is prohibited by the Koran.

    Try living in this country uneducated. We'll see how you'll get on!

    You mean that in spite of what is clearly written in the Koran, where something Mohammed or ancient scholars said contradicts with something you want to do, you can find a man with a similar point of view, judge him a scholar and get him to give you a 'free pass' to do just as you like, so you can do it guilt free?

    What happened to 'Islam is perfect already and need not be changed'?

    Let me make it clear for you. You read an Act of Parliament and see how far you'll get in abiding by it. An Act of Parliament is compensated by court decisions and legal scholars' opinions. In like manner, if we are unsure of something, we must ask someone who is more educated than us in that field. If a scholar says it is forbidden, i will accepts that. As i said, you have no knowledge in Islam. Why would you assume that i would accept your view? You seem to be acting as if you have better knowledge in Islam then a scholar of Islam. Surely an educated person like yourself cannot possibly be so ignorant!
    ....
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    (Original post by Playa10)
    Try living in this country uneducated. We'll see how you'll get on!
    I wasn't aware that a loan was necessary to be educated. Certainly not when the Koran was written. The fact that student finance has developed student loans is a relatively recent phenomenon. However, we are still told that Islamic jurisprudence derived from the Koran and ancient hadith is relevant to today's life. Why should this particular facet be any different?

    (Original post by Playa10)
    Let me make it clear for you. You read an Act of Parliament and see how far you'll get in abiding by it. An Act of Parliament is compensated by court decisions and legal scholars' opinions. In like manner, if we are unsure of something, we must ask someone who is more educated than us in that field. If a scholar says it is forbidden, i will accepts that. As i said, you have no knowledge in Islam. Why would you assume that i would accept your view? You seem to be acting as if you have better knowledge in Islam then a scholar of Islam. Surely an educated person like yourself cannot possibly be so ignorant!
    Why do you pretend that as a non-muslim infidel I can have no knowledge of Islam? I'm sure you can find Islamic scholars alive today that will give you any interpretation on any point of view you personally find contentious.

    This is not even a question that needs any form of interpretation, since the question of Muslims charging or paying interest has arisen many times throughout history, and scholars more educated in Islam than you could possibly comprehend and long since dead have analysed the position and delivered their verdict.

    It's not my interpretation, I'm just stating what they have decreed.

    If this could be changed merely by interpretation, then Muslims needing wanting loans would have already found a scholar to deliver an interpretation that suited them and there would be no need for a separate Islamic banking system or the charade that passes for an Islamic mortgage to get around paying interest.

    You can call a cow a horse, but that doesn't make it any less of a cow.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    How does rent sound like interest? Paying a fair rent for a property you are occupying is permitted in Islam. What is not permitted is charging or paying interest to gain a financial advantage.

    Some people think that it is OK to use loopholes get around the Islamic restrictions on paying interest by lying to themselves that what a non muslim would be paying in mortgage plus interest can be combined and given a different name of 'rent'. Regardless of whether or not the amounts the muslim is paying in 'rent' sum to what the non muslim would be paying as mortgage plus interest.


    Islamic law is full of technicalities? So I suppose you mean two people interpret one thing in not only different, but completely opposite ways and can still both be right?
    Any law, take English law relating to finance, is full of technicalities. One thing may sound like another thing, but is not. Law is a very technical subject hence you see many qualifying statements, definitions, asterisks, etc Rent is not interest even if it sounds like including interest. Technically there is a big difference so perhaps you should read all the fine print in these contracts and agreements before making sweeping, simplified conclusions.

    English law is written in black and white yet every single day interpretations are made and challenged in court. If one can justify their interpretation based on sources, then what's the problem? It's not a simple case of 'he's right and he's wrong', which is your over simplified and rather naive take on the situation.

    Huh? You just said to avoid all loans? Why is it that the interpretation of a 'trusted scholar' can change what we all know (and you know well) is written? Is this more of the 'technicalities' point that I touched on above? What if one 'trusted scholar' says no? Can he keep looking for other 'trusted scholars' until he can find one that says yes?
    It is best practice for all humans, Muslim or not, to avoid loans where possible. We live more freely that way. If you must get a loan, family should be the first point of call before approaching a bank. Islam aside, I think that's good common sense.

    If they have the credentials then you can trust what they say. You're not gonna go to your local imam who probably only leads the prayer and show him your loan contract. He won't know where to start. You might ask him because you trust him, who should I see about this.
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    (Original post by KingofBling)
    Just get a student loan. There is no interest because what you pay back just adjusts (rises OR falls) with inflation. So, because the loan is adjusted for inflation, you only pay back exactly what you were loaned and not a penny more or less. Even though there is 'interest' and it might appear that you're paying back 'more', you're not. The increases just reflect the declining purchasing power of money over time.
    If only that were true.
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    It is best practice for all humans, Muslim or not, to avoid loans where possible. We live more freely that way. If you must get a loan, family should be the first point of call before approaching a bank. Islam aside, I think that's good common sense.

    If they have the credentials then you can trust what they say. You're not gonna go to your local imam who probably only leads the prayer and show him your loan contract. He won't know where to start. You might ask him because you trust him, who should I see about this.
    No it's not, we'd regress hundreds of years without loans, we'd still all be living in tenements and paying landowners over inflated rents just to put a roof over our heads, there wouldn't be anywhere near the number of small businesses and only the wealthy could afford to go to university.

    Also why should you put strain on a family relationship by taking a gamble with their money, when you can gamble with the banks' money?

    Debt is not a bad thing, it is a very good thing in many circumstances, unmanageable debt is where the problems lie.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    islamic scholars do approve of these actions, thats why pretty much every islamic country on the planet has an islamic banking system, even the fanatic fundamentalist ones. So though although you may be right in that muslims shouldnt apporve of any banking or finance (because the quran forbade it) its scholars and imams that operate the rules of mainstream islam, not the quran. And banking makes money, so the scholars say "yes please!"
    thats a minority of scholars who say that...

    no country today is being run 100% according to Quran...
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    Oh just pay it, the rest of us have to.
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    Just like any law, Islamic finance is quite complex. Law is full of technicalities, so for posters above that suggest rent sounds like interest then it must be interest shows you how deeply ignorant they are.
    BS. That rent method is a financial method of escaping some BS rule about interest. It is just another form of rent so that some idiots can feel better about complying with some 1400 year old rule.
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    (Original post by beepbeeprichie)
    BS. That rent method is a financial method of escaping some BS rule about interest. It is just another form of rent so that some idiots can feel better about complying with some 1400 year old rule.
    How insightful :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    thats a minority of scholars who say that...

    no country today is being run 100% according to Quran...
    A 'minority of scholars' that have the ability to promote the practice a system of banking in all muslim countires :confused:
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    A 'minority of scholars' that have the ability to promote the practice a system of banking in all muslim countires :confused:
    yes.

    most scholars of muslim countries oppose these systems...
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    yes.

    most scholars of muslim countries oppose these systems...
    Eer, no -even in countries where the most important imams and clerics run the country (saudi, iran) - there are fully approved banking systems

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