Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites Paradox
Discuss the merits and deficiencies of political theories and philosophical questions.
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Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxYes? Then when does it become a heap of sand? If not, what does make a non-heap of sand into a heap of sand? There seems to be something paradoxical about identity here...
For more an analogous reference: Theseus Ship Paradox.
Discuss.
P.S. If you don't know what I am talking about then look up Sorites Paradox.
Message from the D&CA Mod team: Please don't spam in this thread, if you have nothing constructive to add just don't post. Thanks.Last edited by Democracy; 17-01-2012 at 17:16. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxYou are not answering the question, thus, you are a spammer.(Original post by Munchies-YumYum)
Why not, as my grandad says and the mods need to relax, they have become emotionless robots.
I assume you have not read the paradox. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxI'm therfore I really am. What makes us interesting is that we all see things differently, sizes etc and everything's subjective bro. I've never heard of this paradox per se, yet I have thought about it. In my head I used colour as an example. Take the transition from yellow to green, when does it stop being yellow and become green? There is no objectivity when it comes to things humans have categorised.(Original post by SoulfulBoy)
You are not answering the question, thus, you are a spammer.
I assume you have not read the paradox.Last edited by Munchies-YumYum; 20-01-2012 at 10:31. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites Paradoxeverything's subjective bro. I've never heard of this paradox per se, yet I have thought about it. In my head I used colour as an example. Take the transition from yellow to green, when does it stop being yellow and become green? There is no objectivity when it comes to things humans have categorised.
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxPhilosophical semantics.
There are two answers based on the situation propounded:
1) if you are applying a strict definition based on the number or weight of sand required to form a "heap", then yes, a single grain of sand would change a "non-heap" into a "heap".
2) If you are talking about human perception of the status of the sand, then no, a single grain can't mark the difference because our perception is not so fine as to distinguish between two things so closely separated. A larger difference (such as the addition of a scoopful of sand) is required.
Of course, when you apply this to other things where our perception is fine enough to perceive the difference between a group and a group with one additional individual then yes, addition of a single object can make the difference.
It's not really paradoxical, it's just a conflict between perception and definition, that exists in some cases. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxAbsolutely, psychological experiments show that in such colour transition tests, people tend to hold on to the original colour for as long as possible. So if you get to subjects, each watching a colour transition from opposite start points, they will have a massive overlap where one is stating the colour is 'green' and the other 'yellow'. It's all context dependent and subject to the limitations in our physical perception.(Original post by edd360)
everything's subjective bro. I've never heard of this paradox per se, yet I have thought about it. In my head I used colour as an example. Take the transition from yellow to green, when does it stop being yellow and become green? There is no objectivity when it comes to things humans have categorised. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxIts a heap when my brain perceives the sand as justifiably having the definition of heap, and it's not when my brain doesn't. Ok? The variation in perception between people is simplya consequence of variation of people's brains.
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxI'm not sure this can be seriously considered a 'paradox' to be honest. The confusion only arises from the fact that the predicate 'heap' is imprecise and somewhat loose, so that can be cleared up by using a more precise word.
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxA refresher course here in English would seem appropriate. You CAN'T have a heap with an individual grain of sand. Here's the actual meaning of the word "heap" - from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:(Original post by SoulfulBoy)
Yes? Then when does it become a heap of sand? If not, what does make a non-heap of sand into a heap of sand? There seems to be something paradoxical about identity here...
For more an analogous reference: Theseus Ship Paradox.
Discuss.
P.S. If you don't know what I am talking about then look up Sorites Paradox.
Message from the D&CA Mod team: Please don't spam in this thread, if you have nothing constructive to add just don't post. Thanks.
Definition of HEAP
1 : a collection of things thrown one on another : pile
2: a great number or large quantity : lot
Hope that helps.
Those who won't respect FACTS and LOGIC naturally see paradoxes everywhere - those these actually just exist iin their undisciplined minds. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxLet us start, TROLL.(Original post by Zaki)
A refresher course here in English would seem appropriate. You CAN'T have a heap with an individual grain of sand. Here's the actual meaning of the word "heap" - from Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:
Definition of HEAP
1 : a collection of things thrown one on another : pile
2: a great number or large quantity : lot
Hope that helps.
Those who won't respect FACTS and LOGIC naturally see paradoxes everywhere - those these actually just exist iin their undisciplined minds.
I never said you start with a grain of sand (you actually start with a heap and end up with a grain, EDUCATE YOURSELF AND READ THE DAMN PARADOX!!!!).
Facts? Fact is you have not read what the paradox is about.
Logic? If you knew something about reasoning you would know why you end up with a grain.
Please.
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites Paradox1st- You are right, the term is imprecise but it is NOT the cause of the confusion (it is actually a paradox).(Original post by D.R.E)
I'm not sure this can be seriously considered a 'paradox' to be honest. The confusion only arises from the fact that the predicate 'heap' is imprecise and somewhat loose, so that can be cleared up by using a more precise word.
2- There is an analogous paradox (Theseus Ship) which is exactly about the same thing but it uses a more concrete thing: a ship. Upon reading it, you can't argue that the problem is caused by imprecise terms.
Ironically, the reason of the paradox is a something which is actually loose/imprecise even when it seems that it cannot be. Think of water pouring out the holes of a jar. Water is not imprecise/loose but it still cannot be directly "grasped" in a rigid and precise sense. -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites ParadoxWhere does starting come into it? A grain is NOT a heap of ANYTHING! A heap is a COLLECTION of things - and a grain clearly ISN'T!(Original post by SoulfulBoy)
Let us start, TROLL.
I never said you start with a grain of sand (you actually start with a heap and end up with a grain, EDUCATE YOURSELF AND READ THE DAMN PARADOX!!!!).
Facts? Fact is you have not read what the paradox is about.
Logic? If you knew something about reasoning you would know why you end up with a grain.
Please.
Why don't you have the decency to ever accept correction with good grace? Being ignorant as you are is not nearly as condemnable as being incorrigible you know. The ignorant can be taught - but the incorrigible are bound to end up as useless delinquents who are nothing but pests in society! -
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Re: Does a grain of sand make a non-heap into a heap? Sorites Paradox1st quote: I never said that a grain is a collection of something.(Original post by Zaki)
Where does starting come into it? 1-A grain is NOT a heap of ANYTHING! 2-A heap is a COLLECTION of things - and a grain clearly ISN'T!
Why don't you have the decency to ever accept correction with good grace? Being ignorant as you are is not nearly as condemnable as being incorrigible you know. The ignorant can be taught - but the incorrigible are bound to end up as useless delinquents who are nothing but pests in society!
2nd quote: I already said that.
I repeat: "you actually start with a heap of sand and end up with a grain of sand, EDUCATE YOURSELF AND READ THE DAMN PARADOX!!!!"
