In 2010, 37 applicants from Eton alone were excepted into Oxford. Shocking no??
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A Cambridge admissions tutor came to do a talk at our my school and he put it bluntly that they made a point of accepting as many state-educated people as possible (and i went to an independent school). The figure he gave was a little over 50% actually...
I can't remember whether it was for the particular college or university, but evidently it is an issue which is taken very seriously by the admissions tutors and they do their best to accept the best candidates no matter what their background.
Another point, although I agree that certain schools prepare their candidates better than others, it still requires a huge effort on the part of the individual candidate and if they prove in interview under pressure that they have the sufficient knowledge and potential, who is to call them undeserving. Others can't learn the material for them...
I can't remember whether it was for the particular college or university, but evidently it is an issue which is taken very seriously by the admissions tutors and they do their best to accept the best candidates no matter what their background. Another point, although I agree that certain schools prepare their candidates better than others, it still requires a huge effort on the part of the individual candidate and if they prove in interview under pressure that they have the sufficient knowledge and potential, who is to call them undeserving. Others can't learn the material for them...
Original post by ~Kat~
I agree of course that things need to change, but I don't think the blame lies entirely with Oxford.
I don't want to generalise, but I believe that the majority of state schools need to change their attitude towards unis they tend to view as posh or snobby.
When I was applying to university I was predicted ABC, and wanted to apply to a course at Nottingham which wanted ABB, and instead of encouraging me too improve on my C I was told 'you should aim lower', by the head of my sixth form. And my friend who was attaining the highest grades in our sixth form was told that she shouldn't 'waste her choice on Oxford or Cambridge'. Try and tell me that isn't ****ed up.
The place we went to was the best place in the area, and nobody from there had ever gone to either Oxford or Cambridge, although every year there were students leaving with all A's. We were never taught how to do interviews and our teachers just assumed that we would be going to our local Uni, if we continued education at all.
I'd like to think this isn't representative of all state schools, but in retrospect I find my own experience shocking.
I don't want to generalise, but I believe that the majority of state schools need to change their attitude towards unis they tend to view as posh or snobby.
When I was applying to university I was predicted ABC, and wanted to apply to a course at Nottingham which wanted ABB, and instead of encouraging me too improve on my C I was told 'you should aim lower', by the head of my sixth form. And my friend who was attaining the highest grades in our sixth form was told that she shouldn't 'waste her choice on Oxford or Cambridge'. Try and tell me that isn't ****ed up.
The place we went to was the best place in the area, and nobody from there had ever gone to either Oxford or Cambridge, although every year there were students leaving with all A's. We were never taught how to do interviews and our teachers just assumed that we would be going to our local Uni, if we continued education at all.
I'd like to think this isn't representative of all state schools, but in retrospect I find my own experience shocking.
This touches on an absolutely key point, which so many people forget. You can't compare the makeup of Oxbridge students with the makeup of the general population. You can only reasonably compare it to the makeup of the applicants. People go "oh my god, only 7% of pupils go to independent schools, but 44% of Oxford students were independently schooled" - true, but totally misleading, as it omits the fact that 37% of Oxford's applicants came from independent schools. You can't discriminate against someone who doesn't apply!
Of course, there's still a small discrepancy there - 37% of applicants get 44% of the places, so they apparently have a slight advantage. As Kat again touched on, that's then explained by how much better independent schools generally are at preparing their pupils for Oxbridge applications through means like mock interviews.
Oxbridge admissions tutors (a heterogeneous bunch) are not, as a rule, biased in terms of "social, financial and lineage background". The admissions process is extremely fair. The unfairness of the result is not their fault, and they put huge efforts into rectifying it anyway. Applying blunt tools like quotas is extremely misguided.
(edited 12 years ago)
I think the statistic too often overlooked here is that in 2010 37 applicants from Eton alone were rejected by Oxford, which figure I made up but is likely about right. We're left then with the statistic that one in two pupils applying from the academically selective Eton college is successful in securing a place at Oxford, which 1 in 2 success rate is annually reproduced by a score and more state grammars. Waste of ****ing money, then, except for their imbuing the students with the confidence to apply in the first instance. Adjust for how many of them are applying for subjects that for reasons obvious or not are dominated by public school applicants (Classics, Theology, Oriental Studies, History of Art) and it looks ever less good value.
(edited 12 years ago)
SHOCKER: One of the best schools in the country, perhaps THE BEST, produces a disproportionate amount of Oxford students.
David lammy is a very bitter man who once claimed George Galloway whipped up racial tensions when he defeated half black Oona King in an constituency where the Iraq war was a big issue.
David lammy is a very bitter man who once claimed George Galloway whipped up racial tensions when he defeated half black Oona King in an constituency where the Iraq war was a big issue.
Original post by THECHOOSENONE
I just read a shocking and glaring statistic, 37 applicants from Eton College alone were accepted into Oxford in 2010. Now if that stat does not tell you something than you are clearly living in lalala land. Most state schools struggle to get one pupil accepted into either Oxford or Cambridge let alone 37
.
So clearly, David Lammy's article was completely right, despite the negative and snobbery OXBRIDGE crowd response. Oxbridge have more outreach events at Eton and Wellington college, basically all the schools in the eton group.
Look I don't believe people should be accepted into Oxbridge without the qualifications, but the above stat is evidence of Oxbridge's preference to a certain type of student, in terms of social, financial and lineage background.
Now I know some folks on here will defend the above statistic by saying, the reason why so many pupils from the eton group schools i.e the top 12 independent schools in the UK get into Oxbridge in such vast numbers is, because they have been preparing to get into Oxbridge from the age of 5. Well that argument is baloney and you know it.
.So clearly, David Lammy's article was completely right, despite the negative and snobbery OXBRIDGE crowd response. Oxbridge have more outreach events at Eton and Wellington college, basically all the schools in the eton group.
Look I don't believe people should be accepted into Oxbridge without the qualifications, but the above stat is evidence of Oxbridge's preference to a certain type of student, in terms of social, financial and lineage background.
Now I know some folks on here will defend the above statistic by saying, the reason why so many pupils from the eton group schools i.e the top 12 independent schools in the UK get into Oxbridge in such vast numbers is, because they have been preparing to get into Oxbridge from the age of 5. Well that argument is baloney and you know it.
At every stage, Eton has a highly rigorous selection process. You have to be very clever to get in. Then once you're there, you're taught by the best teachers in the country, who more-often-than-not went to Oxbridge themselves, so it shouldn't be surprising that these intelligent and hard-working people with great teaching (which they pay a lot of money for) have high Oxbridge admissions ratios.
It is a great shame that in the UK, there is such a massive skew in performance towards independent schools. The way to solve this is not to make private schools worse - or to ban them - but to improve the state sector, or find some other kind of structural change in the education sector that works better.
It is probably true that your average Etonian has an advantage in the interview, by virtue of the fact that he'll most likely have had a greater number of highly academic conversations with older, more experienced people, than the average state school pupil. However, I'm pretty certain that a person's overall academic ability and work ethic, enthusiasm etc. shine far brighter than the superficial elements of an interview in which the Etonian has the advantage. Indeed, Oxford and Cambridge both design their interviews in a way that might iron out some of the disparities that are caused by differences in environment, teaching quality etc.
This is one of the reasons why Oxford often sets an aptitude test as a part of the admissions procedure.
(edited 12 years ago)
Couldn't give a toss, really. People from posh private schools have just as much a right to go to a top university as anyone else, if they have the academic ability and potential. (From a Cambridge student who went to a state school where basically no-one gets into Oxbridge ever.)
(However, if substantiated, I'll agree that if Oxford are doing outreach events at Eton that's bull****.)
(However, if substantiated, I'll agree that if Oxford are doing outreach events at Eton that's bull****.)
(edited 12 years ago)
There is nobody at oxford choosing students on what school they went to. The fact is eton is very hard to get into and as a result has a much better intake than most state schools, students get on average better grades than most state schools and my guess is more intelligent than most state schools. I have a friend who went to eton and he said there is very little help with getting into oxford eg no help on personal statements because they no if they were helping too much it would end up in the daily mail.
Isn't Westminster the school with the highest number of students going to Oxbridge? There seems to be quite a notable obsession with Eton and it's links to Oxbridge among many in this country and on this forum.
My state (Grammar) school had 23 students go to Oxbridge this year. Given how wealthy Eton is in comparison and how rigorous it's admissions procedures are, basically how potentially well educated the students are, the figure of 37 Oxford-goers doesn't seem particularly inflated or outrageous.
My state (Grammar) school had 23 students go to Oxbridge this year. Given how wealthy Eton is in comparison and how rigorous it's admissions procedures are, basically how potentially well educated the students are, the figure of 37 Oxford-goers doesn't seem particularly inflated or outrageous.
Original post by tommm
Couldn't give a toss, really. People from posh private schools have just as much a right to go to a top university as anyone else, if they have the academic ability and potential. (From a Cambridge student who went to a state school where basically no-one gets into Oxbridge ever.)
(However, if substantiated, I'll agree that if Oxford are doing outreach events at Eton that's bull****.)
(However, if substantiated, I'll agree that if Oxford are doing outreach events at Eton that's bull****.)
No sources were provided for this information. From my knowledge of public schools, Oxbridge do no more 'outreaching' to public schools than they do to other schools. It also depends on the college whether or not they really do outreach at all. Perhaps you're aware since you're at Cambridge that Emmanuel College do huge amounts of outreach to state schools: why would they even need to go to public school pupils, who are going to apply anyway?
So what? Costly good school that requires students to stay in during the evenings and have lessons continue on Saturday does well.
The real question should be what's happening about grammar schools for those students who come from a poor family but are deserving of an Oxbridge place? Oh looky, Gov't has been phasing them out. Now, unless you're lucky in the area you live, if you're intelligent and poor it could be wasted.
You can't blame richer families for buying their way out of the system. What would be the point of working if you couldn't trade success with anything?
For the record, I am a state school student. Went to a damn good state school, but it was a state school nonetheless.
The real question should be what's happening about grammar schools for those students who come from a poor family but are deserving of an Oxbridge place? Oh looky, Gov't has been phasing them out. Now, unless you're lucky in the area you live, if you're intelligent and poor it could be wasted.
You can't blame richer families for buying their way out of the system. What would be the point of working if you couldn't trade success with anything?
For the record, I am a state school student. Went to a damn good state school, but it was a state school nonetheless.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by DisconcertingWink1
I am more and more beginning to think that David Lammy was himself rejected by Oxford, and is still, to this day, experiencing some deep rectal hurt about it.
Move on, bro. Move on.
Move on, bro. Move on.
Ignoring the uncomfortable "bro" bit, this makes very little sense:
1) If he applied to Oxbridge, he did so from his public school, which would make it odd that some sense of personal grievance were informing his campaign that Oxford is prejudiced in favour of public school educated applicants.
2) He plainly has "moved on" - he went on to Harvard and the bar. At least on TSR, this is the unimprovable dream.
3) His first from SOAS, Masters from Harvard, and scholarship at Lincoln's Inn, and Fellowship at the Royal Soceity of Arts, would suggest that if he is using a rejection in his own case to illustrate failings in the admission system, there could hardly be better example of it short of their rejecting someone who went on to win a Nobel Prize.
Original post by rupertj
why would they even need to go to public school pupils, who are going to apply anyway?
You understand that beer companies are not advertising in the hope of thereby converting teetotallers.
Original post by Fallen
The two Etonians I know at Oxford are both extremely intelligent, extremely hard working, and have fantastic personalities.
The fact that their parents worked hard and opened doors from them should not take away from the fact that they are, quite frankly, perfect candidates for a serious academic institution.
(P.s. I am not one of those people. I am not that arrogant to call myself fantastic
)
The fact that their parents worked hard and opened doors from them should not take away from the fact that they are, quite frankly, perfect candidates for a serious academic institution.
(P.s. I am not one of those people. I am not that arrogant to call myself fantastic
)But, YOU ARE FANTASTIC!
A lot of the replies are interesting but exactly what I expected i,e snobbery and pathetic arguments. Look if it is so hard to get into Eton because of the so called rigorous academics hmmmm so I take it Prince William and Harry got into Eton based on academics lool. some people are living in lalala land as I call it more silly country. Not every one that gets into Eton is there on merit, money talks always has always will unfortunately.
Original post by Roshniroxy
Eton makes me feel sick.
It's the biscuits. Something not right about them.
Eton rides on prestige, connections, quirky traditions and a sea of money - much like Oxford itself.
It's also because of this that it's arguably not even the best school in the UK, despite it being a household name. The honour of best fee paying school in this country would probably go to somewhere more like Marlborough College or Stowe. I once saw a recording of a Stowe lesson; the quality was just unbelievably high, better than any university lecture I've sat in on even at a Top 10 UK university I once attended and I was blown away despite being from a private school myself.
Remember, money and connections often go a lot further than genuine ability or talent.
It's also because of this that it's arguably not even the best school in the UK, despite it being a household name. The honour of best fee paying school in this country would probably go to somewhere more like Marlborough College or Stowe. I once saw a recording of a Stowe lesson; the quality was just unbelievably high, better than any university lecture I've sat in on even at a Top 10 UK university I once attended and I was blown away despite being from a private school myself.
Remember, money and connections often go a lot further than genuine ability or talent.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by THECHOOSENONE
I just read a shocking and glaring statistic, 37 applicants from Eton College alone were accepted into Oxford in 2010. Now if that stat does not tell you something than you are clearly living in lalala land. Most state schools struggle to get one pupil accepted into either Oxford or Cambridge let alone 37.
So clearly, David Lammy's article was completely right, despite the negative and snobbery OXBRIDGE crowd response. Oxbridge have more outreach events at Eton and Wellington college, basically all the schools in the eton group.
Look I don't believe people should be accepted into Oxbridge without the qualifications, but the above stat is evidence of Oxbridge's preference to a certain type of student, in terms of social, financial and lineage background.
Now I know some folks on here will defend the above statistic by saying, the reason why so many pupils from the eton group schools i.e the top 12 independent schools in the UK get into Oxbridge in such vast numbers is, because they have been preparing to get into Oxbridge from the age of 5. Well that argument is baloney and you know it.
.So clearly, David Lammy's article was completely right, despite the negative and snobbery OXBRIDGE crowd response. Oxbridge have more outreach events at Eton and Wellington college, basically all the schools in the eton group.
Look I don't believe people should be accepted into Oxbridge without the qualifications, but the above stat is evidence of Oxbridge's preference to a certain type of student, in terms of social, financial and lineage background.
Now I know some folks on here will defend the above statistic by saying, the reason why so many pupils from the eton group schools i.e the top 12 independent schools in the UK get into Oxbridge in such vast numbers is, because they have been preparing to get into Oxbridge from the age of 5. Well that argument is baloney and you know it.
When I was at Cambridge I knew only 2 people from Eton/Harrow.
One was from a rather well to do family, but was a great lad an very down to earth.
The other went to Harrow on full scholarship. His father was a vicar/pastor and mother worked in a charity shop.
As for outreach events in Eton, not so. They do have students return there to say what its like. But then many state schools do that. Certainly I was asked to return to my state school to give a talk to prospective students.
What oxbridge are spending alot of cash on is events in the far east, trying to attract foreign students.
But why let a bit of truth get in the way of a rant ey?
Original post by UKiwi
Isn't Westminster the school with the highest number of students going to Oxbridge? There seems to be quite a notable obsession with Eton and it's links to Oxbridge among many in this country and on this forum.
My state (Grammar) school had 23 students go to Oxbridge this year. Given how wealthy Eton is in comparison and how rigorous it's admissions procedures are, basically how potentially well educated the students are, the figure of 37 Oxford-goers doesn't seem particularly inflated or outrageous.
My state (Grammar) school had 23 students go to Oxbridge this year. Given how wealthy Eton is in comparison and how rigorous it's admissions procedures are, basically how potentially well educated the students are, the figure of 37 Oxford-goers doesn't seem particularly inflated or outrageous.
Last year my old joint sixth form (3 state schools combined) had 11 students go to oxbridge.
In my year there were 6 of us.
Original post by infernalcradle
sadly...my state school was the same....
it was only after telling them to shove it when it came to my UCAS application and writing my PS myself with no help (and practically writing my reference too) that I got into med school
it was only after telling them to shove it when it came to my UCAS application and writing my PS myself with no help (and practically writing my reference too) that I got into med school
haha know the feeling.
I was predicted a B in general studies by my 'tutor' who was barely out of teacher training.
I did point out to her that whereas I had a broadsheet newspaper on my desk every lunch, she was walking in with a cosmo rag.
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