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How deal w/ corrupt Jobcentre decision making? (personal experiences?) *Resolved*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/jobcentres-tricking-people-benefit-sanctions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/08/jobcentres-benefits-sanctions-targets

Long story short, Jobcentre are 'sanctioning' me, the reasons nonsensical and gibberish. Apparently, this is something they have started recently - handing out heavy random sanctions to jobseekers (well, jobseekers and chavs) to recoup money.

With this in mind, has anyone here encountered it and what advice can you give me?

I know that I have to appeal, that when that no doubt gets rejected, I'll have to go to tribunal. Example of advice you could give me - does going to a tribunal while on JSA mean I do not pay any fees, compared to if I went off JSA?

I am also contacting Citizens Advice Bureau, and conveniently have a Jobcentre appointment tomorrow.

According to the demons in charge, I'm sanctioned until March (and expect that to increase, just because) but after that date I'm still not getting anything because "you have not paid, or been credited with, enough Class 1 National Insurance Contributions". What does this mean in English?

How far can this go? I suppose that is a question for later, but preparation is everything isn't it?

P.S. If and when this goes further, what newspapers would be interested in this? Local I imagine, but I'm thinking bigger. I figure while The Sun is a no-go area, The Guardian could be all over this - the corrupt Jobcentre of a Conservative government drives young, bright kids to suicide while paying for lying chavs' Sky boxes and Xboxes. Would papers offer a fee if they want a story?

Update #1: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showpost.php?p=36074593&postcount=26

Update #2: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showpost.php?p=36281705&postcount=29

Final update: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1904728&page=2&p=36479146#post36479146
(edited 12 years ago)

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Reply 1
And what are the reasons?
Reply 2
Original post by Arekkusu
And what are the reasons?


First I brought my old diary book instead of my new one (you know, the book where you write down what you did to look for then no advisor looks at it or follows them up). I was asked to just write down what I remembered on a sheet which was sent to the Decision Maker, who of course decided I was a lying thief and sanctioned me not only for those 2 weeks, but the 2 weeks before over Christmas which I had already been "excused" and paid (and I believe signed) for. So I'm sure if that's actually a 2-week sanction isntead of a 4-week one.

In the diary book though, they will see I did at least 3 things a week. As instructed, I simply wrote what I remember. I know, I should've lied.

Then in the post one day I got letters saying a decision was going to be made on 2 jobs I picked out during an appointment but did not apply for because they wanted years of experience and/or a driver's license. In October/November. I got these letters just last week. I was to explain why I didn't apply if I so choose, which of course I did, explaining I picked those out myself and in the full downloadable application it stated I need certain experience far in excess of what I had and/or my own transport.

Got a letter today for one of the decisions (so the other one is still pending - cue raping a dead horse), saying I had no good reason and they won't pay me from this week to the start of March, and then after that March date I won't get paid because of the National Contribution thingamajig.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 3
Gotta laugh when people refer to receiving JSA as "getting paid" lol

The national insurance contribution thingamijig means you haven't paid enough national insurance previously to receive contribution based JSA. This usually would have meant you will be able to claim income based JSA, however, with all the benefit changes the gov't have brought in I'm not entirely sure what any changes are and how it'll all work out. I can't envisage them cutting support to people completely because of their lack of NI contributions though.

You have 2 months before they've said they will stop "paying" you, perhaps instead of wondering how you can make sure you'll get JSA you should be putting more efforts into ensuring you can get a job? Even 10 hours a week would give you as much income as JSA, and a whole heap of self-worth to go with it.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 4
Original post by Shani
Gotta laugh when people refer to receiving JSA as "getting paid" lol


It is a payment, how is that not getting paid? :s

You have 2 months before they've said they will stop "paying" you


No I don't :s

perhaps instead of wondering how you can make sure you'll get JSA you should be putting more efforts into ensuring you can get a job? Even 10 hours a week would give you as much income as JSA, and a whole heap of self-worth to go with it.


What in the hell do you think I've been doing, not just while on JSA, but when I have been unemployed generally?

Think for yourself rather than repeating mindless clichés you learned from The Sun and co. Don't be a sheep and think before you write. Logic is a wonderful thing. There are nearly 3 million unemployed people in this country, you seemingly assume all of them are 'benefit thieves' who 'sit on their arse all day'.

Discrimination disgusts me, it should disgust you.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 5
As I am actually on JSA. I can say that it's the decision maker who decides everything for you and not the person behind the table. They won't even notice you if you're filling in your book as you're suppose to. The worst thing you can do is not fill/bring in your book.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 6
Original post by nonotrly
You posted solely to mock me and discriminated against me, looking for an internet argument. Then you talked about irrelevant 'rep' and warning points. This does not help me. You posted solely to compensate for your own personal failings by retaliating on the internet and spew your bile. Like I said, I pity you.


She's wrong, you're right, and their decisions sound like nothing but opportunism to try to hit some target. In future, apply for every job no matter how ridiculously inappropriate the requirements are.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 7
Why not just apply for the jobs they tell you too? Who cares if it's a waste of time? What do you have that's better to do? Definitely research and apply for jobs you're qualified for too but the key to a happy life on JSA is doing exactly what they ask, when they ask and that includes filling in your book and bringing it with you.
Reply 8
OP, as you may already be aware, Jobcentres now apparently have targets (moronic workplaces love them). In other words, they have a sanction quota. So they take any chance they get. Sadly, you're completely right, you should've lied. However, there's every chance the Jobcentre will pussy out if you take this far enough. You seem pretty intelligent, and I expect the Jobcentre see you as a statistic so assume you're a moron who can't get a job because... you're a lazy moron.

As for papers, no idea, don't even know if bad publicity will achieve anything since they're so closely allied with the government (I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservatives are the ones to blame by advising the Jobcentre to sanction everyone possible to save money).

It is a system where the chavs get paid weekly, but the honest can get punished. It's completely in reverse, and it's embarrassing for us as a country.

I don't know the success rate of appeals, but it can go on for a while and in an unbiased setting the Jobcentre would get done.

I don't really have any advice, sorry, but you do seem to be on the right track. It can all become a bit of a mess with financial terms flying about, things to sign and it relies on nobody involved at the Jobcentre makes a mistake with the info they're given. Good luck.

I also hope you're not getting all depressed over it. I don't know your circumstances, but just imagine. It's like finding love, it'll come at some point, out of nowhere. Sometimes it won't work out, but eventually if you're smart enough and you work, this will just be a memory while you live in your home with a present and a future.

Hold on to that thought, that potential.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by nonotrly
Long story short, Jobcentre are 'sanctioning' me, the reasons nonsensical and gibberish.


I've read the reasons you posted, seem like perfectly valid reasons. The evidence you provided to show you were looking for work were simply not enough. Decision makers can only go by what you tell them, so you clearly didn't give enough evidence to support your claim that you were actively seeking work.

Apparently, this is something they have started recently - handing out heavy random sanctions to jobseekers (well, jobseekers and chavs) to recoup money.


Not random at all. Trust me, the amount of time it takes to fill in the forms to get a decision maker to look at something is stupid and isn't just done randomly by staff.

I know that I have to appeal, that when that no doubt gets rejected,


You don't know that. You can provide your job log (which you initially forgot but no doubt have) as evidence and have that sent to a decision maker (not the same one) who will then look to see if it can be overturned. You've got nothing to loose by doing this.

According to the demons in charge,


Yeah, that attitude towards the staff really doesn't help. Honestly if you have that attitude it's no wonder they started to take more notice to your jobsearch. People who treat staff there like crap are just begging to have their claims scrutinised.

I'm sanctioned until March (and expect that to increase, just because)


No doubt the just because is because you have no idea what the hell you're on about? They can't randomly extend a sanction, only add new ones. If you follow the rules and make an effort, that won't happen.

but after that date I'm still not getting anything because "you have not paid, or been credited with, enough Class 1 National Insurance Contributions". What does this mean in English?


It means you can't claim contribution based JSA.

P.S. If and when this goes further, what newspapers would be interested in this?


Seriously?! You're insane if you think this is news.

Original post by nonotrly
who of course decided I was a lying thief and sanctioned me not only for those 2 weeks, but the 2 weeks before over Christmas which I had already been "excused" and paid (and I believe signed) for. So I'm sure if that's actually a 2-week sanction isntead of a 4-week one.


It's a 2 week sanction, so you loose 2 weeks money. How hard is that to understand? It isn't doubled just because you were excused signing. Stop trying to find drama where it doesn't exist.

In the diary book though, they will see I did at least 3 things a week. As instructed, I simply wrote what I remember. I know, I should've lied.


Minimum of 3 things per week. If you're actually serious about looking for work you will have done way more than this. Yet another thing that grabs JCP staff's interest is if people are repeatedly only doing the bare minimum.

Then in the post one day I got letters saying a decision was going to be made on 2 jobs I picked out during an appointment but did not apply for because they wanted years of experience and/or a driver's license. In October/November. I got these letters just last week. I was to explain why I didn't apply if I so choose, which of course I did, explaining I picked those out myself and in the full downloadable application it stated I need certain experience far in excess of what I had and/or my own transport.


You need to appeal the decision then. If that really is a valid reason then you should be appealing it instead of acting like a victim of a great injustice.
Reply 10
Think of forgetting the book another way. If you turned up for work and had forgotten your uniform, I'd send you home. If it was your first few weeks, I doubt I'd be asking you back. When you're working, you have to turn up when you're asked, bringing what you're asked to. Get used to it.
Original post by ozzyoscy
So they take any chance they get.


No they don't. As I said to the OP, it takes freaking ages to do the paper work to get a decision on a claim started. It's not something they do for fun.

Plus the targets thing, yeah they have targets, but most are like 2 sanctions a month. With them being that low they only sanction people who don't follow the rules, there's no need to sanction random people. Stop with the conspiracy theories.

You seem pretty intelligent, and I expect the Jobcentre see you as a statistic so assume you're a moron who can't get a job because... you're a lazy moron.


Again, that's just you presuming to know what others are thinking, not stating anything of worth.

As for papers, no idea, don't even know if bad publicity will achieve anything since they're so closely allied with the government (I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservatives are the ones to blame by advising the Jobcentre to sanction everyone possible to save money).


Actually you can thank Labour for that if you must blame a party. What you don't know is that it was a directive from the head of JCP, not anyone in the government. Still, you want to blame the Tories so go ahead.

It is a system where the chavs get paid weekly, but the honest can get punished. It's completely in reverse, and it's embarrassing for us as a country.


Payments are every fortnight.

I don't know the success rate of appeals, but it can go on for a while and in an unbiased setting the Jobcentre would get done.


You clearly have no idea what the system for appeals is.

I don't really have any advice,


First correct statement in your post. You can't possibly advise the OP on this as you know nothing about the system you're commenting on.
Reply 12
*sigh* A couple of nice replies, but the rest are just not helping. Here we go then...

Original post by orka
As I am actually on JSA. I can say that it's the decision maker who decides everything for you and not the person behind the table.


I'm aware of this.

They won't even notice you if you're filling in your book as you're suppose to. The worst thing you can do is not fill/bring in your book.


Evidently.

You must be a chav too, if you're that lazy to only fill in 3 things a week and forget your book. Only yourself to blame. This isn't school or college.


Odd logic.

Original post by Arekkusu
She's wrong, you're right, and their decisions sound like nothing but opportunism to try to hit some target. In future, apply for every job no matter how ridiculously inappropriate the requirements are.


The dumb thing is these are jobs I picked out myself. It is unenforcable then, because if anyone goes on Google, in theory they should then apply for every job they encounter on Google, otherwise they're "not looking for work".

Applying for dozens of jobs is irrelevant if I don't apply for a couple because they require a freakin' driver. -_-

Original post by alibee
Why not just apply for the jobs they tell you too? Who cares if it's a waste of time? What do you have that's better to do? Definitely research and apply for jobs you're qualified for too but the key to a happy life on JSA is doing exactly what they ask, when they ask and that includes filling in your book and bringing it with you.


They don't tell me to apply for any jobs. These are two jobs I picked out. I went to the sites and downloaded hte job application packs, and it turned out they wanted what I don't have. Logic dictates I should then spend the time I could've spent filling in the application forms, looking for and applying for jobs I actually have a chance with rather than wasting everyone's time.

I did fill in my book, and I did bring a book with me. I made a mistake by bringing in the wrong book. I am not a robot, people forget things, don't they?

Original post by ozzyoscy
OP, as you may already be aware, Jobcentres now apparently have targets (moronic workplaces love them).


Your post is appreciated. I will continue to try my best.

Original post by gateshipone
I've read the reasons you posted, seem like perfectly valid reasons. The evidence you provided to show you were looking for work were simply not enough. Decision makers can only go by what you tell them, so you clearly didn't give enough evidence to support your claim that you were actively seeking work.


How can not applying for a job I'm completely not qualified for a valid reason for a £1,000+ fine? What if that were to make me homeless? That's utter madness, isn't it?

Not random at all. Trust me, the amount of time it takes to fill in the forms to get a decision maker to look at something is stupid and isn't just done randomly by staff.


I filled in the forms myself, and it didn't take long at that. Unless you're talking of other paperwork only advisors and decision makers that you know of from experience.

However, by my account, this is utterly random. I have been one of their best JSAers, advisors were completely chuffed with me, looking for jobs 60 miles away, taking up offers of courses, a 'can-do attitude' and all that.

You don't know that. You can provide your job log (which you initially forgot but no doubt have) as evidence and have that sent to a decision maker (not the same one) who will then look to see if it can be overturned. You've got nothing to loose by doing this.


Agreed. I just have little faith right now. I will fight this, but I'm talking about jobseeking. I don't know where they're going to hit me next, I can look every single day (which I was working towards) and I get massively punished for it, while the liars don't. It hurts confidence certainly, but I will fight as always.

Yeah, that attitude towards the staff really doesn't help. Honestly if you have that attitude it's no wonder they started to take more notice to your jobsearch. People who treat staff there like crap are just begging to have their claims scrutinised.


Why did you assume I am like that towards staff? I mean, I think I'm entitled to feel hate toward the horrid person or people that do this to others, others who may be in worse positions. The diary thing is understandable through the eyes of a Deicison Makers, but a 4 figure sum for efficiently not applying for a job *I* picked out anyway because I wasn't qualified?

No doubt the just because is because you have no idea what the hell you're on about? They can't randomly extend a sanction, only add new ones. If you follow the rules and make an effort, that won't happen.


There were two jobs, and the decision on the second is pending, as I believe I said. They will reject this. If they don't, it proves I'm completely right because both jobs were the same circumstances.

It means you can't claim contribution based JSA.


*shrug*

Seriously?! You're insane if you think this is news.


You tihnk newspapers print news? I don't see why a story like this could not be used, especially if it happens enough.

It's a 2 week sanction, so you loose 2 weeks money. How hard is that to understand? It isn't doubled just because you were excused signing. Stop trying to find drama where it doesn't exist.


What are you going on about? Extended? Read what I wrote please, you haven't understood it. :s

Minimum of 3 things per week. If you're actually serious about looking for work you will have done way more than this. Yet another thing that grabs JCP staff's interest is if people are repeatedly only doing the bare minimum.


I have, so stop giving me **** and assumptions please for goodness sake.

You need to appeal the decision then. If that really is a valid reason then you should be appealing it instead of acting like a victim of a great injustice.


I'M HERE TO ASK FOR OTHERS' EXPERIENCES FOR ****'S SAKE. SOMETHING THAT HELPS ME, NOT "IN FUTURE" ETC.

Like you said, what have I got to lose just for asking?

Original post by alibee
Think of forgetting the book another way. If you turned up for work and had forgotten your uniform, I'd send you home. If it was your first few weeks, I doubt I'd be asking you back. When you're working, you have to turn up when you're asked, bringing what you're asked to. Get used to it.


Don't talk me like some moronic kid who can't tie his shoes. You're comparing me bringing my old book instead of my new book by mistake ONE DAY the same as putting on casual clothes instead of my uniform? Are you kidding me?

It appears it will shock you to know this: I have worked before. Yes! Some of the unemployed types have worked before! They know what a job is, by jove!

Ironically, this puts me in a position to know that what you say is not exactly true anyway.

Driving me mad now. I know I put myself in the firing line by being unemployed and having the audacity to have a voice, but this is ridiculous. I'm not an idiot, believe it or not, I'm about as bright as others here.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 13
I see so you told them in your book that you applied for 2 jobs, they were suspicious and chased up the employers to check and it turns out you didn't apply? Or is that not what happened?
Reply 14
Original post by alibee
I see so you told them in your book that you applied for 2 jobs, they were suspicious and chased up the employers to check and it turns out you didn't apply? Or is that not what happened?


No. At one of the appointments in October or November, I picked out two jobs. When I later downloaded the job application packs on the employers' websites, which went into greater detail about what experience, skills etc. I needed, it turned out I wasn't qualified for the job. So I didn't apply for them.

Now in January, up pops 2 letters about these jobs saying a decision will be made and I can explain why I didn't apply. I explained as above. One decision has come back - 6 week sanction, apparently not having nearly the right experience or a car and a license is "insufficient reason". Awaiting the second decision, which will surely be the same...
(edited 12 years ago)
If its true that you are being sanctioned (or not paid full benefit) because you haven't paid enough National Insurance, I really don't see what you can do about it. It isn't the Job Centre that sets the policies, its the government. If they can't give you a certain level of benefit because you haven't paid a certain amount of NI, its not something you can lie about and its not something they have the discretion to change.

That said, its not 100% clear from your posts why you are being "sanctioned" and what "sanctioned" means.
Original post by jacketpotato
If its true that you are being sanctioned (or not paid full benefit) because you haven't paid enough National Insurance, I really don't see what you can do about it. It isn't the Job Centre that sets the policies, its the government. If they can't give you a certain level of benefit because you haven't paid a certain amount of NI, its not something you can lie about and its not something they have the discretion to change.

That said, its not 100% clear from your posts why you are being "sanctioned" and what "sanctioned" means.


The OP isn't being sanctioned because of the NI, that's a separate issue. The sanctions are for not actively seeking work it seems. Oh and sanction's are when JSA payments are suspended for a set period of time.
Original post by nonotrly
How can not applying for a job I'm completely not qualified for a valid reason for a £1,000+ fine? What if that were to make me homeless? That's utter madness, isn't it?


Well it's not a fine really is it. Anyway, you're right, that isn't a reason to be sanctioned in my opinion so you should appeal the decision as soon as possible.

I filled in the forms myself, and it didn't take long at that. Unless you're talking of other paperwork only advisors and decision makers that you know of from experience.


Yeah I mean all the stuff that member of staff has to do once you've left. It takes ages and is a pain in the arse, I don't know anyone who does it for fun!

However, by my account, this is utterly random. I have been one of their best JSAers, advisors were completely chuffed with me, looking for jobs 60 miles away, taking up offers of courses, a 'can-do attitude' and all that.


But that doesn't mean anything. You've already had your JSA in return for all that effort. You have to focus on the present, in which it seems it's been decided that you weren't actively seeking work. It sucks but you just have to appeal and get on with things.

I sanctioned people I liked. Just because I liked them doesn't mean they're immune from sanctions.

Why did you assume I am like that towards staff?


Based on past experience of people who call JCP staff demons and other names. Apologies if you don't but unfortunately that tends to be the

I mean, I think I'm entitled to feel hate toward the horrid person or people that do this to others, others who may be in worse positions.


Hate is a bit strong don't you think? They're just doing their jobs. Dislike the decision by all means, but to actively hate people and call them names, it's just not necessary and doesn't portray you in a very good light unfortunately.

The diary thing is understandable through the eyes of a Deicison Makers, but a 4 figure sum for efficiently not applying for a job *I* picked out anyway because I wasn't qualified?


If you are shown the job in the jobcentre by a member of staff and they print it out, you're agreeing to apply for it, that's why it's been identified as an issue I imagine. I don't think your sanction is fair, so appeal it.

You tihnk newspapers print news? I don't see why a story like this could not be used, especially if it happens enough.


Honestly no one cares about people who moan about the jobcentre. Just look at that grad who is taking them to the high court. She's not getting any sympathy from anyone.



What are you going on about? Extended? Read what I wrote please, you haven't understood it. :s


I never said extended? You said you weren't sure if it was a 2 week or 4 week sanction, so I said it is just 2 weeks.

Look, here's my advice, as someone who has been unemployed and has worked in a Jobcentre. If you don't agree with a decision, appeal it ASAP and provide as much evidence to back up your claim as possible. If a job is too far away, provide a timetable or route info from the traveline website that shows it takes more than 90 minutes to get there. The more evidence you can provide, the more chance you have of getting the decision overturned.
Reply 18
Haha, turns out the Guardian do consider this news: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/jobcentres-tricking-people-benefit-sanctions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/08/jobcentres-benefits-sanctions-targets

Thought it was a humourous coincidence.

Original post by gateshipone
Hate is a bit strong don't you think? They're just doing their jobs. Dislike the decision by all means, but to actively hate people and call them names, it's just not necessary and doesn't portray you in a very good light unfortunately.


People have a choice. People who work for A4e, for a weapons developer, as a lab assistant in an animal testing facility, are surely well aware of what they're aiding, and must be happy with this. While weapons and animal testing is ultimately subjective, there is absolutely no excuse to deny people what they need when they held up their end of the agreement.

I don't use the hate often, but if someone chooses to hurt others, I will hate them. They are what makes the world go wrong. Why would I accept that? Plus, this is an internet forum, so it's no big deal. I would not be saying this in a court room.

This is getting publicity and now even I've experienced it, illogically. There is something corrupt going on here.

If you are shown the job in the jobcentre by a member of staff and they print it out, you're agreeing to apply for it, that's why it's been identified as an issue I imagine. I don't think your sanction is fair, so appeal it.


It's just their wording, it's insulting. Like they gave me a job and I refused a job opportunnity because I'm a thief.

Honestly no one cares about people who moan about the jobcentre. Just look at that grad who is taking them to the high court. She's not getting any sympathy from anyone.


No-one would care about most things if it wasn't covered in the news. These days, if not before, the news is about making news rather than covering it, isn't it?

I never said extended? You said you weren't sure if it was a 2 week or 4 week sanction, so I said it is just 2 weeks.


That's silly. So according to them, I lied to them, so they paid me for not doing anything to find work during my 2 excused Christmas weeks. I define that as corrupt and dodgy.

Look, here's my advice, as someone who has been unemployed and has worked in a Jobcentre. If you don't agree with a decision, appeal it ASAP and provide as much evidence to back up your claim as possible. If a job is too far away, provide a timetable or route info from the traveline website that shows it takes more than 90 minutes to get there. The more evidence you can provide, the more chance you have of getting the decision overturned.


Regarding the book one, I've got my book of course, and printouts of the jobs I applied for, I don't know if that's enough for them.

As for the job applying ones, I'll go to the employers and see if I am able to get a copy of the application criteria or a statement. Annoyingly, I saved them on my computer for so long, and nothing happened. So they're gone now.
(edited 12 years ago)
when did the job centre turn into the iranians?!

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