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Reply 960
So, Cultural Heritage and the deconstruction of the concept equates to a massive mind**** when done across two languages.
Reply 961
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
We all know that scientia potentia est but ... go "all left-wing"? Does that presuppose that being left-wing is an aberration, a blip upon the normalcy of right-wing comfort?

No, it just presupposes that the way in which you voice your left-wing views can, on occasion, be a right pain even for people who agree with you in principle. As you know perfectly well, because when you're in Angry Agitator mode you're deliberately striving for maximum abrasiveness and don't take any prisoners...:erm:
Reply 962
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
We all know that scientia potentia est but ... go "all left-wing"? Does that presuppose that being left-wing is an aberration, a blip upon the normalcy of right-wing comfort?


I'd more think something being left (or right) wing enough to be remarked upon is an aberration, whether it's seen as positive or negative or simply unusual. It's not that being right wing is normal, especially not in this thread...
Original post by hobnob
No, it just presupposes that the way in which you voice your left-wing views can, on occasion, be a right pain even for people who agree with you in principle. As you know perfectly well, because when you're in Angry Agitator mode you're deliberately striving for maximum abrasiveness and don't take any prisoners...:erm:


I think we can be safe in assuming that where private education is concerned apotoftea and I are not from the same type of school. It's merely that feeling, even in a jokey way, hard done by because one private school said no to your learning Latin which you got another private school strikes me as ... well, not exactly something to jokingly link with being hard done by.

Original post by Drogue
I'd more think something being left (or right) wing enough to be remarked upon is an aberration, whether it's seen as positive or negative or simply unusual. It's not that being right wing is normal, especially not in this thread...


You what now?
(edited 12 years ago)
Why should someone have to put in disclaimers for everything though? I'm sure potty didn't mean what you are (more or less) implying, that she is entirely unaware that she was privileged to go to a private school. And she shouldn't have to shout that all the time.

Feeling hard done by because you didn't get to do a subject that you wanted to do is reasonable. Just because it happens to be Latin and a private school doesn't change her basic point, and there's absolutely no need for her to make her feel any less entitled to express this opinion than someone else who went to a different school.
Original post by Feefifofum
Why should someone have to put in disclaimers for everything though? I'm sure potty didn't mean what you are (more or less) implying, that she is entirely unaware that she was privileged to go to a private school. And she shouldn't have to shout that all the time.

Feeling hard done by because you didn't get to do a subject that you wanted to do is reasonable. Just because it happens to be Latin and a private school doesn't change her basic point, and there's absolutely no need for her to make her feel any less entitled to express this opinion than someone else who went to a different school.


Potty and I are not exactly unknown to each other so she can do a virtual slap in me face in her own time. However when it comes to privately-educated individuals, I'm afraid I have much less respect than I do for those who aren't. Neither you nor Hobnob nor Drogue nor anyone else will ever change my mind on that. The schools should be abolished, their assets stripped and turned over to state schools that desparately need them, and there should be a penalty imposed on all those who have gone to private and public schools when it comes to jobs, university entrance, and the tax system. Then, and only then, will they truly "get it".
Reply 966
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
I think we can be safe in assuming that where private education is concerned apotoftea and I are not from the same type of school. It's merely that feeling, even in a jokey way, hard done by because one private school said no to your learning Latin which you got another private school strikes me as ... well, not exactly something to jokingly link with being hard done by.

Well no, quite literally not.:p: But this isn't about the fact that apotoftea went to a posh private school and that Latin is a terribly middle-class subject and plenty of people can manage just fine without it. It's about the fact that it's annoying when schools prevent their students from taking the subjects they'd like to take because of a silly technicality. Surely when a private school does that it's just as bad as when a state comprehensive does it?
Original post by hobnob
Well no, quite literally not.:p:


:rofl: Well ... that's clearly my loss in that regard!

But this isn't about the fact that apotoftea went to a posh private school and that Latin is a terribly middle-class subject and plenty of people can manage just fine without it. It's about the fact that it's annoying when schools prevent their students from taking the subjects they'd like to take because of a silly technicality. Surely when a private school does that it's just as bad as when a state comprehensive does it?


Technicalities don't really happen in schools where teaching staff, lesson time, and resources aren't there. That's the major difference.
Reply 968
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
:rofl: Well ... that's clearly my loss in that regard!

Or hers, because she missed out on the chance to do Welsh.:wink:
Technicalities don't really happen in schools where teaching staff, lesson time, and resources aren't there. That's the major difference.

So they deliberately decided to be idiots, then. Does that make it any better, though? I'd say that if a school doesn't allow students to take certain subjects because they lack the resources or teaching staff, that's deplorable, and it shouldn't happen, but at least the school's reasoning is understandable, because they have no other choice except to tell the student 'no, sorry, you can't take more than one science subject'. Whereas a school which does have the resources and teaching staff to technically allow students to take whichever subjects they wish, probably has ulterior motives when choosing not to do so (i.e. they didn't want to run the risk that she might not catch up quickly enough and mess up their precious GCSE results by getting the only B in school or something). Isn't that more reprehensible in a way?
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 969
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
Technicalities don't really happen in schools where teaching staff, lesson time, and resources aren't there. That's the major difference.


Of course they do, as all schools still have to timetable, etc. which leads to technicalities. For example, my school might not have let you do Spanish if you were ****e at French, even though you might have been amazing at Spanish (I was **** at French the year the choices were offered, almost failed the entire year, thankfully got into Spanish on a technicality and I was one of the best in my year at it). There's a technicality. Or, they slot your GCSE or A-level choices into blocks and unfortunately two of your choices are in the same block, and you are forced to pick one because of this technicality. Technicalities happen everywhere.

And ultimately, attacking someone because their parents have the means to send them to a private school is hardly fair. For the most part, we don't choose where we go to school. What England really should do is bring back the grammar system, the proper one.
Original post by Hylean
And ultimately, attacking someone because their parents have the means to send them to a private school is hardly fair. For the most part, we don't choose where we go to school. What England really should do is bring back the grammar system, the proper one.


England can do what it likes... as for the old chestnut of "it's their parents what did it", pfah.
This is one of the reasons I hate TSR. I went to a private school because that is where my parents sent me. My parents. Not me.


Adorno:
Active discrimination against people for something over which they have no control, is as unforgivable as any other form of discrimination - racism, sexism, homophobia, you name it. Your statement that "there should be a penalty imposed on all those who have gone to private and public schools when it comes to jobs, university entrance, and the tax system" is simply ludicrous. Are you unaware that, at many of the schools which you are grouping together, there is an enormous spectrum? There are those whose parents earn vast amounts and who would not baulk at extra taxes etc. There are also plenty of people who rely on bursaries and scholarships that cover 100% of their fees. At my school, this accounted for 10% of pupils, with a further 20% on a 75% or higher bursary. These are people whom your suggestions would leave absolutely without hope. And, again, for a choice made for them by someone else, not something over which they have control. If you want to suggest anything along the lines of the penalties you set out, you would at the very least have to aim it at the parents of those who went to private schools, and within that, take account of personal situation.

I know that saying such things will never have any effect on you, but you should be aware that the words you say are, in this instance, ignorant and prejudiced.

Edited to add: I'm leaving TSR for a while, so don't expect any replies.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 972
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
England can do what it likes... as for the old chestnut of "it's their parents what did it", pfah.


Well, did you choose your school when you were 11, or whatever age you were? I highly doubt it. Nor do I believe you chose your primary school either. Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean everyone in it is inherently bad for being a part of it.

Moreover, "England can do what it likes". You sit there bitching about private schools and when I suggest a decent alternative, you come out with that? Though, a post above suggests you might be Welsh, so then Wales should introduce the grammar system. Either way, it's a far better system than what most of the UK has in place right now.

Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder for not having been able to go to a private school than anything else from this one post alone.
Original post by Hylean
Well, did you choose your school when you were 11, or whatever age you were? I highly doubt it. Nor do I believe you chose your primary school either. Just because you don't like the system doesn't mean everyone in it is inherently bad for being a part of it.


No, I went to the school in the village and then to a comprehensive since that's what pretty much every Welsh person does. The point I always make on this is that it's a ridiculous defence to make when it's not your parents who benefit from the education, privilege and unfair advantage that you get from private education. It would be folly to say "oh it was my parent's choice" to defend having been educated in your local comprehensive since you are in the same boat as most of the rest of your peers both locally and nationally. They are not the same, in my view.

Moreover, "England can do what it likes". You sit there bitching about private schools and when I suggest a decent alternative, you come out with that? Though, a post above suggests you might be Welsh, so then Wales should introduce the grammar system. Either way, it's a far better system than what most of the UK has in place right now.


There haven't been grammar schools in Wales for decades, it's the only one of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to have erradicated them completely. We have no need of them and there is absolutely no political will here to bring them back. Grammar schools have long been recognised in the Welsh system as divisive and cruel and have long-standing negative effects upon those forced out of academic "success" at a young age. It was not a better system.

Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder for not having been able to go to a private school than anything else from this one post alone.


Heh, I've no desire to go to a private school. Nor have I ever. I do resent, however, the significant leg-up they provide for those who do not deserve one. If that produces a chip on the shoulder then so be it, I wear it with pride and call it Karl.
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 974
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
No, I went to the school in the village and then to a comprehensive since that's what pretty much every Welsh person does.


Oh my gods, you went to a comp!? EWWWWWWWWWWWWW...

If I tried to pull that **** on you, you'd rightfully chew me out, so why is it okay for you to attack those who went to private schools because it's what their parents chose for them?



Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
There haven't been grammar schools in Wales for decades, it's the only one of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to have erradicated them completely. We have no need of them and there is absolutely no political will here to bring them back. Grammar schools have long been recognised in the Welsh system as divisive and cruel and have long-standing negative effects upon those forced out of academic "success" at a young age. It was not a better system.


Really? Because the grammar school system in NI worked incredibly well, producing better results on an acknowledged "harder" exam board than the rest of the UK. I went to a non-denom grammar in Belfast and had students from working class, middle class and higher-middle class backgrounds. How is that bad? Oh, yes, the old "some people mature earlier than others" argument. Well, this is why students can still apply to grammars long after the 11+ if they so choose. They are not forever locked out of them just because of one exam.

Moreover, comprehensive schooling is even worse, because the weaker students get lumped in with the smarter ones, leading to neither being adequately educated. Even with the money from private schools (which you wouldn't get anyway), that fact would never change. At least with the grammar system, those students from poorer backgrounds can get the teaching they deserve if they are smart enough. Fair enough, they might not remain that way and others might improve over the years, but it's still better than what you've got.


Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
Heh, I've no desire to go to a private school. I do resent, however, the significant leg-up they provide for those who do not deserve one. If that produces a chip on the shoulder then so be it, I wear it with pride and call it Karl.


What makes someone deserving? A parent who worked hard for their money and wishes their child to have a good education? Or intelligence? How do you measure intelligence until A-level, when undoubtedly one of your arguments against the grammar system is the uneven maturity rate of intelligence in teens? Surely by that argument no one is deserving of it, and we should all languish in the horrible system that is the comprehensive. How about those poor students who managed to get scholarships to private schools? Are they undeserving? Or the poor families, who scrimp and save every single penny to send their children there?

Whilst I agree in principle that private schools are wrong, as I prefer a school system based on grades, etc. I still completely disagree with you taking your chip out on the people who attended them for no other reason than they had no choice.
Original post by Hylean
Oh my gods, you went to a comp!? EWWWWWWWWWWWWW...


If I tried to pull that **** on you, you'd rightfully chew me out, so why is it okay for you to attack those who went to private schools because it's what their parents chose for them?

You're quite welcome to go "ewww" at the notion of a comprehensive school, plenty of people here do. Including the many privately-educated folks who reside in this thread. I'll still defend the comprehensive system as the best form of schooling.

Really? Because the grammar school system in NI worked incredibly well, producing better results on an acknowledged "harder" exam board than the rest of the UK. I went to a non-denom grammar in Belfast and had students from working class, middle class and higher-middle class backgrounds. How is that bad? Oh, yes, the old "some people mature earlier than others" argument. Well, this is why students can still apply to grammars long after the 11+ if they so choose. They are not forever locked out of them just because of one exam.

Moreover, comprehensive schooling is even worse, because the weaker students get lumped in with the smarter ones, leading to neither being adequately educated. Even with the money from private schools (which you wouldn't get anyway), that fact would never change. At least with the grammar system, those students from poorer backgrounds can get the teaching they deserve if they are smart enough. Fair enough, they might not remain that way and others might improve over the years, but it's still better than what you've got.


Well as I say, that's not the perception in the Welsh system and hasn't been for a very long time. The difficulties we have here are not related to the type of school but about issues of poverty and poverty of educational aspiration. Craggy is much better informed, given it is her field, than I on the matter but to blame comprehensives is unfair. It may be that they haven't worked in England but Wales seems fully capable of producing doctors, lawyers, academics, and creative people from its comps.

Whilst I agree in principle that private schools are wrong, as I prefer a school system based on grades, etc. I still completely disagree with you taking your chip out on the people who attended them for no other reason than they had no choice.


It's okay, it's no more harmful than Timmy Mallet :tongue: But in any case, none of us had a choice as to which school we attended. That doesn't mean the outcome of that lack of choice was equal or fair. Society is weighted towards those with private education and weighted against those with a comprehensive-school background. Lack of choice made all the difference.
Reply 976
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
I think we can be safe in assuming that where private education is concerned apotoftea and I are not from the same type of school. It's merely that feeling, even in a jokey way, hard done by because one private school said no to your learning Latin which you got another private school strikes me as ... well, not exactly something to jokingly link with being hard done by.

She said feeling hard done by, not actually being hard done by. The fact that other people in the world have vastly bigger problems and vastly harder lives doesn't negate how someone feels about their experiences. If we take your logic that apot shouldn't even joke about feeling hard done that she couldn't take Latin by because many people, such as yourself (and even me), went to schools that wouldn't dream of offering Latin, then surely neither of us should be able to feel hard done by because we went to school and university, unlike the vast majority of children in the world.

However we all consider our experiences in comparison with those around us. So when someone talks about studying Latin and someone else wanted to but wasn't allowed to, it's natural for them to feel a bit hard done by. I'd even expect a banker to feel hard done by if their friends hire a private jet and they can't afford to join them. I wouldn't expect anyone to shed a tear for them, just as (on a much lesser scale) I doubt apot expected anyone to shed a tear for her not being allowed to study latin. But I would expect them to feel hard done by, because almost everybody considers what they have compared to what the people they're in contact with have.

If not, where do you draw the line? How bad does a school have to be to make it ok to complain about other schools being much better? Should this be on a local, national, or global scale? To me, it only makes sense to consider experiences in comparison with the experiences of others you come into contact with. Hence I can absolutely see why you'd find someone who went to a school with vastly greater resources than yours complaining about the lack of opportunities a bit of an affront, however I'd hope you'd see that in many other areas other people would see your complaints as an affront to their even worse experience. To me, both complaints seem valid, even being a potential affront,a s they fall short of an experience you see.

I would hope that we don't need to preface every complaint about a first-world problem with a comment that "I realise people elsewhere face much bigger issues but..." just to show we're aware of it. This is a society for being grumpy, whether that's because you missed out on Olympic tickets and can't afford a horse or whether you have just become unemployed and can't afford your rent.
Reply 977
Original post by Feefifofum
This is one of the reasons I hate TSR. I went to a private school because that is where my parents sent me. My parents. Not me.


Adorno:
Active discrimination against people for something over which they have no control, is as unforgivable as any other form of discrimination - racism, sexism, homophobia, you name it.

Surely that statement also applies to ability, to at least some extent. Are we to stop discrimination based on that? The point I'm alluding to is that, if someone has been given a leg up through something that wasn't their choice, is it wrong to pull them back in a way that levels the playing field? I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as Adorno in espousing harsh state discrimination against all private schools, but I do think, for example, that universities should look at grades in the context of what is average for that school, as well as in absolute terms.

I don't think choice is the key factor either. To take it to extreme, someone could argue "I was born into a very rich family, and making that money was my parents' choice, not mine, so why should I have to pay more inheritance tax?" Which seems ludicrous, as despite having no choice, they have and will benefit from their parents' wealth, just as people who went to better schools benefited even if it wasn't their choice.

To me, the issue is whether doing anything to even things out can get you to a better solution, in terms of getting more naturally-able people into top universities and jobs, though I suspect Adorno has wider motivations (such as fairness and social equality), hence his more drastic suggestions.
Reply 978
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
The schools should be abolished, their assets stripped and turned over to state schools that desparately need them, and there should be a penalty imposed on all those who have gone to private and public schools when it comes to jobs, university entrance, and the tax system. Then, and only then, will they truly "get it".


scratch a lefty, find a totalitarian.
Well I think inheritance tax is another matter entirely. I don't really understand why it exists. Well I understand WHY it exists, it just seems odd ideologically: I make money, taxed. Anything I do with it, taxed. That money is now passed on to my children, taxed. Anything they purchase, taxed. Holy crap what? It's MY money.

Well not literally because I have no money. It has just always seemed....wrong from an ideological point no matter how useful in terms of practicality.

As for schools. Well as someone from a (relatively) poor background I think it's quite clear that most comps are terrible, though it depends on what area you're from and despite being overall left leaning I'm all for private schooling. If someone has the cash and wants to send their children to a private school, good for them. It's their money and their taxes (which are most likely significantly higher anyway) also contribute to state schooling.

The massive disparity between state and private doesn't exist solely in academic terms, there is a mentality at work more often than not. One of the things I genuinely hate about the UK compared to, say, Greece is the level of "reverse" snobbery. The BEST thing I've ever done, incidentally, was getting well shot of my crappy schooling and going into work for a few years where I could get away from all that crap and think. Working in a restaurant for 2 years did more for my education than the previous 7.

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