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GOGSoc Episode V: The GOG Strikes Back

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Reply 1220
Avatar for sj27
sj27
14
Out of interest, does anyone know when surnames started coming into general use?
Its a fallacy to suggest that marriage is 'a piece of paper' because in reality it isn't - marriage is the commitment that two people make with one another to spend their lives together - the document is merely the written confirmation of that commitment.
Original post by Athena
I bet they were introduced for tax purposes...


Yeah and when you have more centralised governmental systems you need to be able to identify individuals for all sorts of purposes besides. Imagine going to your GP and sitting in the waiting room and the receptionist says "Fred of the Red House by the flowing brook, doctor will see you now". Interestingly enough, though, in the Valleys people were still known by their jobs until relatively recently. You might have John Sausage (the butcher) or even Dai Scafalde (the builder) and Dai Farm (farmer).
Reply 1223
Avatar for sj27
sj27
14
Original post by Athena
Oh, here we go - we can thank the Normans for surnames: ...

I bet they were introduced for tax purposes...


:rofl:
Reply 1224
Avatar for sj27
sj27
14
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
Yeah and when you have more centralised governmental systems you need to be able to identify individuals for all sorts of purposes besides. Imagine going to your GP and sitting in the waiting room and the receptionist says "Fred of the Red House by the flowing brook, doctor will see you now". Interestingly enough, though, in the Valleys people were still known by their jobs until relatively recently. You might have John Sausage (the butcher) or even Dai Scafalde (the builder) and Dai Farm (farmer).


I'd love to do some research into Jewish surnames actually. Most Jews in South Africa come from Eastern European descent, and whereas a number have surnames that trace back to biblical priestly functions (like Levi and Cohen), and some have German surnames, a lot just seem to be named after places in Eastern Europe. Kind of the pale of settlement version of Catherine of Aragon etc I suppose :wink:. In synagogue services it just follows the Icelandic type tradition I suppose...(first name) son/daughter of (father's first name).
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
Yeah and when you have more centralised governmental systems you need to be able to identify individuals for all sorts of purposes besides. Imagine going to your GP and sitting in the waiting room and the receptionist says "Fred of the Red House by the flowing brook, doctor will see you now". Interestingly enough, though, in the Valleys people were still known by their jobs until relatively recently. You might have John Sausage (the butcher) or even Dai Scafalde (the builder) and Dai Farm (farmer).

How recently is relatively recently?
I know a lot of my boater friends by their boat name and we often, when describing each other, use that in place of a surname, especially to distinguish between two people of the same name. So Sarah Ling and Sarah Chertsey, John Pippin and John Monty. I'm Amy Duck...
Original post by Feefifofum
How recently is relatively recently?


The last generation or so, i.e. since the 1980s. With the rise of supermarkets and the collapse of the high street in almost every small town and village, the practice has disappeared along with the jobs.
Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi
Yeah and when you have more centralised governmental systems you need to be able to identify individuals for all sorts of purposes besides. Imagine going to your GP and sitting in the waiting room and the receptionist says "Fred of the Red House by the flowing brook, doctor will see you now". Interestingly enough, though, in the Valleys people were still known by their jobs until relatively recently. You might have John Sausage (the butcher) or even Dai Scafalde (the builder) and Dai Farm (farmer).


Presumably this was also partly because in a lot of villages, many people had the same surname whether they were related or not, so it wasn't a very good identifier? I've already mentioned the many Joneses on my Dad's side...
Reply 1229
Avatar for Drogue
Drogue
19
Original post by Socrates
Its a fallacy to suggest that marriage is 'a piece of paper' because in reality it isn't - marriage is the commitment that two people make with one another to spend their lives together - the document is merely the written confirmation of that commitment.


This is obviously true, but if discussing marriage as distinct from making a verbal promise to your partner, the difference is the piece of paper confirming it and the public (and religious) acknowledgement of that commitment. These are the two things that differentiate marriage from what most cohabiting families would see as their relationship.
Reply 1230
Avatar for Drogue
Drogue
19
Original post by Feefifofum
How recently is relatively recently?


I don't know why, but this statement from a classicist made me smile. I had to stop myself replying "I'm guessing this side of the middle ages" :getmecoat:
Original post by Drogue
I don't know why, but this statement from a classicist made me smile. I had to stop myself replying "I'm guessing this side of the middle ages" :getmecoat:


I'm now feeling slightly depressed that the modern day equivalent in my case would be something like 'Ilex Academic Tosspot'. Probably a good thing then that this doesn't persist in 21st century Birmingham. :colondollar:
Original post by Helenia
Presumably this was also partly because in a lot of villages, many people had the same surname whether they were related or not, so it wasn't a very good identifier? I've already mentioned the many Joneses on my Dad's side...


I wouldn't be so sure of that, in truth. I think it's more to do with the fact that working-class people held work as the primary identifier of their identity. In that sense, there was a good degree of pride in being, say, Dai Stretch (an ambulance man in the colliery) whether your name was David Jones, David Billington, or David O'Sullivan.
The Byzantine Greeks (in other words the Romans) were one of the first to make wide usage of a modern surname system apparently.
Original post by Drogue
I don't know why, but this statement from a classicist made me smile. I had to stop myself replying "I'm guessing this side of the middle ages" :getmecoat:


That suddenly makes Fee's request make much more sense.
I've done quite a lot of work on Roman onomastics (Sulla did cool things with the subversion of earlier naming practices) so I'm finding this really interesting! I might copy Sulla's example and take an extra surname for ****s n giggles.
(edited 12 years ago)
Original post by Feefifofum
I've done quite a lot of work on Roman onomastics (Sulla did cool things with the subversion of earlier naming practices) so I'm finding this really interesting! I might copy Sulla's example and take an extra surname for ****s n giggles.


Can I put in a vote for 'beast' as a suffix?
(edited 12 years ago)
Reply 1237
Avatar for hobnob
hobnob
14
Original post by sj27
I'd love to do some research into Jewish surnames actually. Most Jews in South Africa come from Eastern European descent, and whereas a number have surnames that trace back to biblical priestly functions (like Levi and Cohen), and some have German surnames, a lot just seem to be named after places in Eastern Europe. Kind of the pale of settlement version of Catherine of Aragon etc I suppose :wink:. In synagogue services it just follows the Icelandic type tradition I suppose...(first name) son/daughter of (father's first name).

Aren't the German surnames actually the result of German Jews being forced to change their family names at some point? Possibly as early as the late medieval times, but I'm not too sure because this only rings a very distant bell... I don't think they even got to choose their new names, as far as I remember, and officials basically just made them up.:erm:
Original post by IlexAquifolium
I'm now feeling slightly depressed that the modern day equivalent in my case would be something like 'Ilex Academic Tosspot'. Probably a good thing then that this doesn't persist in 21st century Birmingham. :colondollar:


The locations version is good though: Ilex of the Fort of the Felines. Alba of the Garden of the Catfights.

My foster kitteh didn't come today as planned :sad:. Her current foster parent couldn't get her into her carrier before work, after she escaped from it (while still inside, thankfully!). Sounds like a spirited little lady. But she's coming tomorrow :h:
Reply 1239
Avatar for sj27
sj27
14
Original post by hobnob
Aren't the German surnames actually the result of German Jews being forced to change their family names at some point? Possibly as early as the late medieval times, but I'm not too sure because this only rings a very distant bell... I don't think they even got to choose their new names, as far as I remember, and officials basically just made them up.:erm:


I'm not sure when it happened, but yes you are correct re being forced to change. However, my understanding was that they Germanicised (is that a word?) their existing names, eg Solomon translated into the German "Friedman", which is why a number of German surnames are particular to Jews (although other surnames appear to be shared - for example every Zimmerman I know is Jewish, but I am led to believe that this is not an uncommon surname among non-Jewish Germans).

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