[fizz113]

(Original post by JOR2010)
Oh yes, lest not forget! So many people who don't take History, or an interest in it, know so little about the persecution of Jews, thinking that Nazi Germany was the only state to do so in the entire course of history.

I think it's fair to say that the Jewish population have been victims of years of abuse.

Many other religions have been as well.

I don't understand why people don't just accept each other and move on.

I believe each man should help out his fellows, regardless of their views.

[Miracle Day]

I don't think I've seen any right answers to why it directly began I just vaguely went through the thread.

Hitler called a meeting called the Wansee conference and that's basically where the holocaust came from. The one you're referring to, with the Nazzis. I don't know where it generally came from.

[Arekkusu]

The idea of Jews as money-grabbing parasites had been around for a good thousand years. During the era when Europe was under theocratic control, around 900-1000, religious laws prevented Christians and Muslims from charging interest on loans, but Jews still could. So Jews were in the best position to set up banks or to bankroll other people's financial endeavours. This led to long-standing jealousy and anti-Semitism.

Now Hitler rose to power completely because of the Great Depression. Eugenics had also been very popular too ever since fields of study such as phrenology were set up in the wake of Darwinism, and before that even, the Europeans had drawn clear racial dividing lines to legitimise slavery. So it was easy for Hitler to blame "the greedy bankers", who were obviously like that because it was in the Jewish blood.

To begin with, Jews were segregated into ghettoes, disadvantaged by legislation, and then generally harassed and used as slave labour. Most people are vaguely aware that the "final solution", or the building of concentration camps, was mostly the work of Heydrich and Himmler, possibly the biggest dickheads in the Nazi members' club. There is no explicit evidence Hitler ever called for the Jews to be killed en masse, apparently. He certainly knew what was going on, and must have assented, but he didn't really implement the plan, that was Heydrich and Himmler.

[JOR2010]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
I don't think I've seen any right answers to why it directly began I just vaguely went through the thread.

Hitler called a meeting called the Wansee conference and that's basically where the holocaust came from. The one you're referring to, with the Nazzis. I don't know where it generally came from.

The Holocaust had already began before the Wannsee conference of 1942, although it did detail the outline of the Holocaust. Mass deportation and extermination of Jews was already underway in 1941, so I believe you are also wrong.

[JOR2010]

(Original post by Gurmeet.Kapoor)
Okay so I'm doing a powerpoint on the Holocaust and its 5 Ws(Who, What, Where When Why)

and I do the Why, which is the hardest of the lot :P

I know that Hitler slowly but steadily became the dictator of Germany...and in his speeches he said that Jews were the root cause of all the problems they had in the recent past...(WW1,The Great Depression)


What other reasons do you have..? I can only think of this one...(and other small ones)

Lots of reasons, really. The Jews were a common scapegoat in Europe for many centuries, and Hitler wanted to create a scapegoat that he could turn the population towards. Combined with the fact that the Jews were rich in comparison to the average non-Jewish German, and Hitler wanted to use the Jewish people to finance many of his projects by forcing them to pay reparations and literally robbing the money from them. For example, after Kristallnacht, I believe the Jews were fined a RIDICULOUS amount, just to squeeze money of out them for Hitler's plans.

[helloiamaloser]

(Original post by fizz113)
It's Hebrew for "destruction"

Heard of the phrase "nuclear holocaust"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_holocaust

No, actually, it comes from Greek 'holos' meaning whole and 'kaustus' meaning burnt. The Hebrew word for the Holocaust is the Shoah.

[helloiamaloser]

(Original post by fizz113)
The Holocaust didn't just start in 1939.

There are issues as to when it began, but I would say that it began following the First World War, with the "stab in the back myth" attributing Jews (among others) for Germany's loss in the war.

Adolf Hitler had been persecuting the Jews ever since 1934, with the night of the Long knives.

The purge had increased to become the Holocaust, which had happened due to the high cost. Sterilisation and moving them to the borders had cost too much, so Heydrich planned the Final Solution, which, unfortunately, became the Holocaust.

It's a sad point in history, but, unfortunately, one of many.

No, no and no.

The Holocaust (that is to say, the SYSTEMATIC extermination of the Jewish population) is widely believed to have begun in 1941 (to a certain extent, anyway), with the gas vans at Chelmno - though many historians (including Christopher R. Browning) will agree that actually the ORIGINS of the Holocaust lie in June 1941, when Germany invaded the SU - the home of the largest Jewish population of Europe (5mil.) It was the 'euphoria of victory' in the SU(amongst other things, such as the complete failure of the Madagascar Plan and the complete inability of the Nazis to organise efficiently the relocation to the south of Poland) which led to the creation of the Final Solution, hence the Wannsee conference in Jan. 1942. Before then, there is very little evidence to suggest the Holocaust had actually begun, aside from a few spontaneous killings. However, the Holocaust means the SYSTEMATIC extermination of the Jewish, the rounding up of Jews who were only to be shot and then buried in mass graves started in 1941 in the SU, then evolved into the Final Solution - extermination camps and the like (though many people would cite Hitler's 1939 Reichstag speech as evidence of his intentions to exterminate the Jewish population - I do not subscribe to this theory, though it is plausible to some extent.) That's a very basic, brief and badly worded introduction.

Secondly the Knight of the Long Knives was not against Jews, but against leftists and also against the Sturmabteilung (SA), otherwise known as the Brownshirts - the paramilitary division of the NSDAP (Nazi party). Many of those killed during the Röhm-Putsch were members of the SA, including its leader Ernst Röhm. I think you're thinking of Kristallnacht.

Also I'm not sure how valid your claim is of the Jews being sterilised, at least to the extent that the failure of sterilisation led to the Holocaust (which is what you seem to be suggesting). I can't recall any accounts of Jews being sterilised en masse, though I recognise that perhaps small pockets of cases exist (which can't be generalised to encompasse the whole of the German sphere).

[helloiamaloser]

(Original post by Historophilia)

Germany and central Europe generally had a culture of anti-Semitism that was easily tapped into, Jews were a prominent minority, and while obviously not all of them were rich bankers and merchants etc, a larger than average percentage of them were. So jealousy and resentment of success factors in.

Actually Russia and Eastern Europe had the highest levels of antisemitism (Hungary, Romania and Poland being the most prominent examples). This is understandable though, as these areas had the highest population of Jews. Holocaust historians and those who look at the history of Antisemitism and Jewish persectution (those that are worth their salt anyway) will agree that Germany had relatively low levels of antisemitism. France, for example, can be shown to have been more antisemitic (e.g. the Dreyfus Affair). Read Albert Lindemann's Antisemitism Before the Holocaust.

[Historophilia]

(Original post by helloiamaloser)
Actually Russia and Eastern Europe had the highest levels of antisemitism (Hungary, Romania and Poland being the most prominent examples). This is understandable though, as these areas had the highest population of Jews. Holocaust historians and those who look at the history of Antisemitism and Jewish persectution (those that are worth their salt anyway) will agree that Germany had relatively low levels of antisemitism. France, for example, can be shown to have been more antisemitic (e.g. the Dreyfus Affair). Read Albert Lindemann's Antisemitism Before the Holocaust.

I'd agree with that, Anti-semitism has always been a European problem and while levels of it may have been lower in Germany thatn theye were in Russia and France, that does not mean that they were non-existant.

Anti-semistism was a normal, mainstream outlook in the 19th century, look at Wagner for example. He is often attacked for having been anti-semtic but he was completely normal in his views for the time.

[fizz113]

(Original post by helloiamaloser)
No, no and no.

The Holocaust (that is to say, the SYSTEMATIC extermination of the Jewish population) is widely believed to have begun in 1941 (to a certain extent, anyway), with the gas vans at Chelmno - though many historians (including Christopher R. Browning) will agree that actually the ORIGINS of the Holocaust lie in June 1941, when Germany invaded the SU - the home of the largest Jewish population of Europe (5mil.) It was the 'euphoria of victory' in the SU(amongst other things, such as the complete failure of the Madagascar Plan and the complete inability of the Nazis to organise efficiently the relocation to the south of Poland) which led to the creation of the Final Solution, hence the Wannsee conference in Jan. 1942. Before then, there is very little evidence to suggest the Holocaust had actually begun, aside from a few spontaneous killings. However, the Holocaust means the SYSTEMATIC extermination of the Jewish, the rounding up of Jews who were only to be shot and then buried in mass graves started in 1941 in the SU, then evolved into the Final Solution - extermination camps and the like (though many people would cite Hitler's 1939 Reichstag speech as evidence of his intentions to exterminate the Jewish population - I do not subscribe to this theory, though it is plausible to some extent.) That's a very basic, brief and badly worded introduction.

Secondly the Knight of the Long Knives was not against Jews, but against leftists and also against the Sturmabteilung (SA), otherwise known as the Brownshirts - the paramilitary division of the NSDAP (Nazi party). Many of those killed during the Röhm-Putsch were members of the SA, including its leader Ernst Röhm. I think you're thinking of Kristallnacht.

Also I'm not sure how valid your claim is of the Jews being sterilised, at least to the extent that the failure of sterilisation led to the Holocaust (which is what you seem to be suggesting). I can't recall any accounts of Jews being sterilised en masse, though I recognise that perhaps small pockets of cases exist (which can't be generalised to encompasse the whole of the German sphere).

Dear helloiamawinner

I did correct myself, but I thank you for the extra detail. Upon redefining the term "Holocaust", I realised that the Wannsee Conference marked the beginning of the Holocaust, and I was thinking of persecution of the Jews.

I thank you for the extended explanation. Is Nazi Germany a personal interest of yours? ( I don't mean to sound controversial, I know of many people who find Nazi Germany interesting)

[Gurmeet.Kapoor]

Thanks so much all of you! Seems like I started a discussion? :P


But, this is just something that I started wondering while researching..his mother died of cancer(she was extremely close to him) and their family doctor was a Jew....now since the doctor was treating the mother at that time, would Hitler's hatred for Jews start then??

But then I read some other sources, that said the opposite, that Hitler was full of gratitude towards the doctor and later on around WW2, he allowed his doctor to emigrate?

What do you guys think?

[tieyourmotherdown]

I should probably be able to recall more about this than I actually can, but oh well.

Essentially anti-semitism wasn't anything new. It had been brewing in Europe for centuries and, despite the somewhat liberalising effect of the Weimar Republic, Germany was no different. This however wouldn't have caused the holocaust were it not for Hitler's personal hatred for the Jews, a history of German use of concentration/death camps along a similar vein (see the use of concentration camps in German South-West Africa, which scarily echo the holocaust in nature), and a lack of organisation amongst the Nazi leadership.

However you have to bear in mind that there's no set reason why the holocaust began. There is a raging debate as to whether it was intended all along, or whether it just sort of slipped into place, so in reality it was a plethora of factors, the impact of which varies from viewpoint to viewpoint.

[Miracle Day]

(Original post by JOR2010)
The Holocaust had already began before the Wannsee conference of 1942, although it did detail the outline of the Holocaust. Mass deportation and extermination of Jews was already underway in 1941, so I believe you are also wrong.

I am not wrong, unless my teacher whom had 28/30 A*- C last year in AS is teaching me the wrong thing.

Oh, and yes the Holocaust was created by the Nazzis. But in 1941 they were all lined up and shot, this caused psychological problems for the nazzis who had to shoot them so this is why they used gas

[JOR2010]

Your teacher is wrong, the holocaust did NOT begin until 1941. There was persecution of Jews before 1941, and it started during 1941 and was WELL underway by 1942.

[Miracle Day]

(Original post by JOR2010)
Your teacher is wrong, the holocaust did NOT begin until 1941. There was persecution of Jews before 1941, and it started during 1941 and was WELL underway by 1942.

It wasnt well underway by 1942. See above example.

[bunbury93]

Seriously, who cares about when exactly the Holocaust started? There is no undisputed exact date for it anyway.
It’s not like you can say it’s 4 pm on the 4th of February 1941 - BAM the Holocaust started.
You can find all kinds of arguments for and against the start of the Shoa being before or after 1941… but next to the shocking truth it shows us about human nature the question WHEN exactly it started seems irrelevant, doesn’t it?

To answer the question WHY the Holocaust started it is important to not only see Hitlers hate towards jews… this can be considered as the conductor, but not as the root of evil.
Afterall there was a whole population who could have stopped what was going on.
Unfortunately there is to say that most people knew what was going on with the jews, even though they later on denied this knowledge, and didn’t do anything against it.

Harald Welzer, a german social psychologist wrote a study about this.
He said that the actual reason for people to let the Holocaust happen was the immediate shift in their reality.
The shift in peoples reality meaning that their lifes rapidly changed, because suddenly it was a good thing to talk condescendingly about your jewish neighbour and suddenly these neighbours lost all their rights and were mysteriously taken away.
And all this seemed fine, because people were told by authorities that Jews were not equal to “Aryans” and eventually they believed this.
Welzer suggests that german society was torn into a “we-group” (“Wir-Gruppe”) and a “they-group” (“Sie-Gruppe”). In acting against the “they-group” the “we-group” was strengthened and gained a solidarity that was lacking in Germany at that time.
Considering the already miserable state of Germany and its people, they falsely welcomed the inferiority of Jews as a fact so as to strengthen their self-confidence.
The exclusion of jews from society was done in such a short time that there wasn’t really time for people’s conscience to doubt this change.

Of course as it was already said, foundation for this psychological phenomenon was the anti-semitism that’s already been in the minds of people all over the world, especially in Europe (but not only in Germany).
But I think Welzer’s theory gives a pretty plausible psychologial explanation of WHY people let it happen.

[JOR2010]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
It wasnt well underway by 1942. See above example.

How about you ask around instead of taking your teacher's word as the perfect answer?

[helloiamaloser]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
It wasnt well underway by 1942. See above example.

Actually it was. See above example.

Also, its a shame they couldn't teach you how to spell Nazi.

[helloiamaloser]

(Original post by fizz113)
Dear helloiamawinner

I did correct myself, but I thank you for the extra detail. Upon redefining the term "Holocaust", I realised that the Wannsee Conference marked the beginning of the Holocaust, and I was thinking of persecution of the Jews.

I thank you for the extended explanation. Is Nazi Germany a personal interest of yours? ( I don't mean to sound controversial, I know of many people who find Nazi Germany interesting)

Yes sorry! I did see you had corrected yourself, but there was all sorts of information flying about so I decided just to weigh in anyway.

yeah the Holocaust/Third Reich is my specialism as it were and I'm currently preparing to write my undergraduate dissertation on the Holocaust and memory.

And thank you for changing my name. WINNING.

[Miracle Day]

(Original post by helloiamaloser)
Actually it was. See above example.

Also, its a shame they couldn't teach you how to spell Nazi.

There's no above example.

And they did "Natsi"

I study History in welsh

Thank you, come again