Hey there Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Calling upon all Muslims, here me out

Announcements Posted on
Post on TSR and win a prize! Find out more... 10-04-2014
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ieatcheeseyo)
    No, read the first few sentences...

    He was talking about devout Muslims that want Sharia Law imposed... not referring to all Muslims.
    If they were devout, then they should know even more and they should know that it is a condition of Shariah, that it can't be imposed on a population that is not majority Muslim
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    I agree that people should be allowed to speak their views and what they want changed. I just completely disagree with everything Muslims want to change.
    "EVERY THING that Muslims want to change"

    What if they want to make changes to the education system, in line with current laws. According to your logic, a non Muslim in government can make changes to the country, but if a Muslim wants the exact same change, they aren't allowed it
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    "EVERY THING that Muslims want to change"

    What if they want to make changes to the education system, in line with current laws. According to your logic, a non Muslim in government can make changes to the country, but if a Muslim wants the exact same change, they aren't allowed it
    Considering I disagree with religion and hence Islam, yes I would say that any changes proposed in the name of Islam I will disagree with.

    Funnily enough someone who isn't a Muslim isn't going to want to make a change in the name of Islam, so your example isn't really applicable.
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    Considering I disagree with religion and hence Islam, yes I would say that any changes proposed in the name of Islam I will disagree with.

    Funnily enough someone who isn't a Muslim isn't going to want to make a change in the name of Islam, so your example isn't really applicable.
    You didn't say in the name of Islam. You said the following:


    (Original post by edd360)
    I agree that people should be allowed to speak their views and what they want changed. I just completely disagree with everything Muslims want to change.
    You never mentioned "in the name of Islam" so don't try and weasel out of it now. Just because a Muslim wants something changed, it doesn't have to be in "the name of Islam"

    So according to you, if say Harriet Harman said "We must pave the way for a green economy by 2020" that'd be fine, but if Baroness Warsi said the same exact thing, you'd disagree purely on the basis of her religion?
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    You didn't say in the name of Islam. You said the following:




    You never mentioned "in the name of Islam" so don't try and weasel out of it now. Just because a Muslim wants something changed, it doesn't have to be in "the name of Islam"

    So according to you, if say Harriet Harman said "We must pave the way for a green economy by 2020" that'd be fine, but if Baroness Warsi said the same exact thing, you'd disagree purely on the basis of her religion?
    Weasel out of what? You are just being typically pedantic.

    I said I disagree with everything Muslims want to change. This implies Muslims as a collective who share common interests in what they want changing, this common interest they share is what is know as the religion Islam.

    Why do I have to phrase everything so specifically, it's like talking to a child.
    • 15 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    You insulted everybody on this forum by posting the links to those stats which was an insult to everybody's intelligence.

    You spoke with authority on a subject which you clearly are nowhere near knowledgeable on, let alone an authority on. Again you insulted everybody's intelligence.
    The stats are the stats, thats all I need to know.

    All the things I insulted you on were based directly on evidence. You cannot read a basic table. Fact. You cannot interpret the results in a basic table. Fact. You cannot count. Fact. You cannot identify which countries are Muslim countries, and which ones are not. Fact. All these facts were proven by what you posted. There were no ad hominem, but factual observations. Tough for you to accept maybe, but true.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Country 2008 Count 2009 Count 2008 Rate / 100,000 2009 Rate / 100,000
    Argentina 3,276 8.3
    Armenia 8 19 0.3 0.6
    Azerbaijan 34 25 0.4 0.3
    Bahrain 21 36 2.8 4.6
    Belarus 336 240 3.5 2.5
    Belgium 3,111 2,786 29.5 26.3
    Bulgaria 225 262 2.9 3.5
    Cameroon 447 2.4
    Canada 528 491 1.6 1.5
    Chile 1,980 2,233 11.9 13.3
    Croatia 162 188 3.7 4.3
    Cyprus 19 34 2.2 3.9
    Czech Republic 637 529 6.2 5.1
    Denmark 492 396 9.0 7.3
    Egypt 63 87 0.1 0.1
    Estonia 122 160 9.1 11.9
    Finland 739 915 14.0 17.2
    France 10,132 10,277 16.4 16.6
    Germany 7,511 7,292 9.1 8.9
    Greece 218 2.0
    Guinea 92 1.0
    Hungary 468 489 4.7 4.9
    Iceland 87 68 28.2 21.6
    Israel 1,270 1,243 18.3 17.6
    Japan 1,766 1,582 1.4 1.2
    Kazakhstan 1,518 1,298 9.9 8.4
    Kenya 876 735 2.3 1.9
    Korea
    Kyrgyzstan 300 303 5.6 5.6
    Latvia 93 100 4.1 4.4
    Lesotho 1,797 1,878 88.4 91.6
    Liechtenstein 1 3 2.8 8.4
    Lithuania 200 164 6.0 4.9
    Luxembourg 44 57 9.3 11.9
    Maldives 5 9 1.7 3.0
    Malta 10 19 2.5 4.7
    Mauritius 77 69 6.1 5.4
    Mongolia 355 354 13.6 13.4
    Morocco 1,215 1,130 3.9 3.6
    New Zealand 1,314 1,308 31.3 30.9
    Norway 945 944 20.0 19.8
    Oman 132 183 4.8 6.6
    Philippines 2,409 2,585 2.7 2.9
    Poland 1,827 1,611 4.8 4.2
    Portugal 305 317 2.9 3.0
    Republic of Moldova 231 262 6.3 7.2
    Romania 1,047 1,016 4.9 4.8
    Russian Federation 7,038 6,208 5.0 4.4
    Sierra Leone 135 79 2.5 1.4
    Slovakia 182 152 3.4 2.8
    Slovenia 97 57 4.8 2.8
    Solomon Islands 61 56 12.2 11.0
    Spain 2,530 2,437 5.7 5.5
    Sudan 1,189 2.9
    Sweden 4,269 4,901 46.6 53.2
    Switzerland 648 612 8.6 8.1
    Syrian Arab Republic 125 156 0.6 0.7
    Turkey 1,148 1,071 1.6 1.4
    Trinidad and Tobago 670 642 60.9 58.4 [19]
    Uganda 599 1,536 2.0 4.9
    Ukraine 878 880 1.9 1.9
    United Kingdom (England and Wales) 12,637 13,093 23.4 24.1
    United Kingdom (Northern Ireland) 422 396 24.0 22.3
    United States of America 90,427 89,000 29.3 28.6
    Zimbabwe 4,762 3,186 38.3 25.6



    Are the western countries highest on these table or not? Fact!

    Rather than insulting me, why not provide evidence that proves me wrong and attacks my argument rather than attacking me, just as I'm proving evidence that proves I'm right.

    And what were the sources of the rates? Given many Muslim countries do not collect (let along publish) rape rates, how have these been calculated? Dito with suicide.

    What am trying to lead you to realise is that there simply is not been the release of accurate data on these sorts of "sensitive" subjects in Muslim countries, so you cannot compare with other more open countries. This is the reality.

    I mean do you honestly believe that the rape incidence in Morocco is 39 times higher than Egypt? Does this not arouse suspision in your mind? Or do you have the sort of mind that just believes anything so long as it is pleasing to you?
    Of course muslim countries collect data on rape and suicide.

    Why would that be so hard to believe? The fact of the matter is the the west has the highest, rape, crime, murder rates in the world. Period!




    Nationmaster is complete garbage, and it was 2004 from which the data was drawn according to the index below the table.

    It goes against what I believe, therefore if is garbage. Inductive reasoning :nope:
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    Weasel out of what? You are just being typically pedantic.

    I said I disagree with everything Muslims want to change. This implies Muslims as a collective who share common interests in what they want changing, this common interest they share is what is know as the religion Islam.
    So can Muslims not also share another common interest along with the rest of the public, about what needs changing? Don't say that you disagree with every thing that Muslims want to change, and then later say "Oh it's when they say its for Islam"

    (Original post by edd360)
    Why do I have to phrase everything so specifically, it's like talking to a child.
    So it'd be fine if I said "I disagree with every thing English people want to change" if instead I mean "in the name of x religion, or no religion"?
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    So can Muslims not also share another common interest along with the rest of the public, about what needs changing? Don't say that you disagree with every thing that Muslims want to change, and then later say "Oh it's when they say its for Islam"



    So it'd be fine if I said "I disagree with every thing English people want to change" if instead I mean "in the name of x religion, or no religion"?
    Are you actually able to point me to one thing that Muslims specifically want to change which isn't related to Islam?

    The point is, if Muslims as a whole wanted to change something for this country, it would be because of Islam, it is implied, and defined by each other.

    I wouldn't have said Muslims if I hadn't have mean Islam related changes, I would have said humans.

    I swear, it's like me saying I disagree vegetarians, and then you saying "so you hate wearing socks then because vegetarians wear socks?" It is the things which make them vegetarian I disagree with, and with Muslims it is the things that make them Muslims (Islam) I disagree with.

    Do you have autism or something?
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    Are you actually able to point me to one thing that Muslims specifically want to change which isn't related to Islam?

    The point is, if Muslims as a whole wanted to change something for this country, it would be because of Islam, it is implied, and defined by each other.
    Are you seriously saying that all these guys want change in the country, because of religion? Their leaflet's have largely secular values

    http://www.imadahmed.com/726785532/b...of-parliament/


    (Original post by edd360)
    I swear, it's like me saying I disagree vegetarians, and then you saying "so you hate wearing socks then because vegetarians wear socks?" It is the things which make them vegetarian I disagree with, and with Muslims it is the things that make them Muslims (Islam) I disagree with.

    Do you have autism or something?
    No, it's like you saying you disagree with every thing that vegetarians want to change, not just disagreeing with vegetarians. Also, even if you did say that, why should you disagree with vegetarians just because they are vegetarian? If they said something like "All people must not eat meat" then I can see where you're coming from, but to disagree with every thing a person does/says purely because they come from a different community is completely stupid
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    i was born here an this is my country i will live and die here......
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    So can Muslims not also share another common interest along with the rest of the public, about what needs changing? Don't say that you disagree with every thing that Muslims want to change, and then later say "Oh it's when they say its for Islam"



    So it'd be fine if I said "I disagree with every thing English people want to change" if instead I mean "in the name of x religion, or no religion"?
    ....
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    Are you seriously saying that all these guys want change in the country, because of religion? Their leaflet's have largely secular values

    http://www.imadahmed.com/726785532/b...of-parliament/




    No, it's like you saying you disagree with every thing that vegetarians want to change, not just disagreeing with vegetarians. Also, even if you did say that, why should you disagree with vegetarians just because they are vegetarian? If they said something like "All people must not eat meat" then I can see where you're coming from, but to disagree with every thing a person does/says purely because they come from a different community is completely stupid
    No, I'm saying anything that Muslims want changed I disagree with, because I disagree with things being changed in the name of religion. And if it's because of them being Muslim that they want something changed, that it is therefore in the name of islam.

    I still can't believe you are trying to manipulate my words to make me sound worse than I am, but it seems to be common practice with talk about Muslims. I feel like I should get a lwayer to look over everything I write about Islam and Muslims incase the wording of it can be manipulated.

    And and your last paragraph, again another complete misinterpretation of words which you associate negativity to, incorrectly. IF I didn't disagree with vegetarians I myself owuld be a vegetarian. The fact that I am not a vegetarian is INSINUATING that I don't agree with it, wth is wrong with you seriously? Do you attach negativity to literally every word?

    I fail to see how your mind perceives "I disagree with vegetarians" as "I disagree with EVERYTHING they do!", in the English language, when you are talking to people, certain things are assumed. Now I don't know if English is your second language, but when we say something like "I disagree with vegetarians" it goes without saying you are referring to their vegetarianism, and in our instance, saying I disagree with Muslims is implying I am referring to Islam specific wishes.

    It would do you well to learn this rule before you piss off more innocent members.
    • 69 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    No, I'm saying anything that Muslims want changed I disagree with, because I disagree with things being changed in the name of religion. And if it's because of them being Muslim that they want something changed, that it is therefore in the name of islam.

    I still can't believe you are trying to manipulate my words to make we sound worse than I am, but it seems to be common practice with talk about Muslims. I feel like I should get a lwayer to look over everything I write about Islam and Muslims incase the wording of it can be manipulated.
    It's not manipulating your words, though is it? I quoted you word for word, without any manipulation. If you had said "I meant x, but I said y" I would have backed off, but you then went on and said that Muslims only change something in the name of their religion. In your initial post, you made absolutely zero reference to religion, and it sounded like you won't agree with any changes that a Muslim puts forth on the basis of their religion, even if the reasoning has absolutely nothing to do with religion
    • 5 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by de_monies)
    It's not manipulating your words, though is it? I quoted you word for word, without any manipulation. If you had said "I meant x, but I said y" I would have backed off, but you then went on and said that Muslims only change something in the name of their religion. In your initial post, you made absolutely zero reference to religion, and it sounded like you won't agree with any changes that a Muslim puts forth on the basis of their religion, even if the reasoning has absolutely nothing to do with religion
    ive edited my above post to portray the overall message I wish to convey. If you still don't get it, just never speak to me again because we will never agree.

    Also FYI when you manipulate someones words, that can also mean manipulating the meaning they had. Seriously please learn the basic social stigma of English language. 0 reference to religion? I specified Muslims ffs, are you just trolling me? If so 10/10, now leave me alone.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by King-Panther)
    The stats are the stats, thats all I need to know.
    But the Nationmaster stats did not even support what you were saying. That was the whole point of my first responses to you.

    2 of them only included 1 Muslim country for comparison (and in 1 of them, the country ranked badly)......

    (Original post by King-Panther)
    Are the western countries highest on these table or not? Fact!
    Yes, and I am asking you what is the methodology of collecting this data. Muslim countries in general do not collect let alone report these sort of "sensitive" subjects. This is the fact.

    (Original post by King-Panther)
    Rather than insulting me, why not provide evidence that proves me wrong
    and attacks my argument rather than attacking me, just as I'm proving evidence that proves I'm right.
    I have refuted your posts and discredited your evidence. What else are you looking for?

    (Original post by King-Panther)
    Of course muslim countries collect data on rape and suicide.

    Why would that be so hard to believe? The fact of the matter is the the west has the highest, rape, crime, murder rates in the world. Period!
    Muslim countries in general do not collect let along report this sort of information. I remember once UNICEF was discussing why Tunisia had such high rate of adolescent suicide compared to other Arab countries, and it transpires that Tunisia was the only Arab country to actually collect this data on state level. Muslim countries in general do not collect or release this sort of information, precisely because they want to maintain an image that people like you want to believe of them..........

    (Original post by King-Panther)
    It goes against what I believe, therefore if is garbage. Inductive reasoning :nope:
    It's garbage because in the context of comparison of Western countries with Muslim countries, it's totally useless, because the number of Muslims countries being compared with it so absurdly small.
    • 4 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    yes and an oppressive and intollerant regeime for its citezens to live in

    http://minivannews.com/society/prote...th-death-29260
    NO its NOT! Everywhere there will a Shaitan or two....That doesn't mean that everybody is like that...Maldives doesn't give any chance for any religion except Islam...Yes people in Maldives at the moment are politically little disturbed.. Maldives is peaceful...People here are given as example of how a person should be.....Maldives is a 100% muslim country...We dont have any fear to live in here.....
    Also let me tell you islam is the only way to get real peace in this world and the world hereafter...You might not want to agree to this but this is the truth......We Maldivians feel proud to be muslims...We aren't forced to be muslims..We are muslims by our own will...It's another thing that Maldives doesn't give any chance for any other religion...but ,yet people of other religions are allowed to live and migrate and...so whatever...in maldives..Still they are not allowed to express or spread their religion in maldives..churches and other places like temples aren't build in here....only mosques..SO please it'll be better not to talk anything about which you don't know correctly....
    • 4 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mariachi)
    in the Maldives, everyone is obligatorily a Muslim by law

    a very radical solution
    No...I agree that we are brought up by our parents as muslims and we are greatly thankful to Allah....Nobody is forced to be a muslim(again,may I say)...We know whats the truth and what's not..Islam is the only religion which will give the world its true happiness and true peace...I'm a muslim..I'm an adult.....Nobody forced me to accept islam..I know the truth.....80% of Quruan has been proven to be 100% correct by means of todays science so I believe that the other 20%, hence 100% of Quruan to be 100% correct......Allah said,

    [لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ]
    (There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''
    The Ayat is mentioned for non-muslim not for muslim. A muslim must obey what Allah has ordained for him, If they dont then they are liable for their actions. As far as forcing is concerned, as long as an individuals actions are have negative consequences on a community as a whole (eg a woman going out in obsene clothings in an Islamic Environment) the authorities do have the right to force them to do the right thing.
    Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by edd360)
    I still can't believe you are trying to manipulate my words to make me sound worse than I am, but it seems to be common practice with talk about Muslims. I feel like I should get a lwayer to look over everything I write about Islam and Muslims incase the wording of it can be manipulated.
    Islam has a strong tradition of theological debates which we Westerners have abandoned long ago

    This includes splitting hairs (and religious sects) over words and concepts, since Islam is (ultimately) word-based. It relies on the idea that "God" would deliver his ultimate message and instructions for humans in form of a "book",

    Therefore, the "word" has a central role in Islam, and "people of the book" have a specific dignity and status. The Quran is eternal and uncreated and occupies, in Islamic theology, more or less the place occupied by Jesus (the Logos) in Christian theology.

    In Western societies, we have long ago abandoned (since, I would say, the Renaissance) this almost religious respect for words:numbers and science have taken the central role in development, while philosophy/theology have taken a back seat.

    This said, given this central role attributed by Islam to words, it comes as rather a surprise that "God" should choose to deliver his final message in a language such as Arabic, which, in those days, wrote several consonants in the same way and didn't even write down vowels at all (pointing and diacritical marks were introduced quite later)

    But, who are we to question the all-mighty ?
    • 15 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    But the Nationmaster stats did not even support what you were saying. That was the whole point of my first responses to you.

    2 of them only included 1 Muslim country for comparison (and in 1 of them, the country ranked badly)......

    The source is provided for every table they do, its on the table on the right.



    Yes, and I am asking you what is the methodology of collecting this data. Muslim countries in general do not collect let alone report these sort of "sensitive" subjects. This is the fact.
    fact |fakt|
    noun
    a thing that is indisputably the case : she lacks political experience—a fact that becomes clear when she appears in public | a body of fact.

    I don't think you know what the word means, hence why I'm post Oxfords dictionary definition. So show me how its a fact muslim countries don't collect data.

    I have refuted your posts and discredited your evidence. What else are you looking for?
    Oh wow, the all mighty rat bat has discredited the UN and all the others sources, all hail rat bag!


    Muslim countries in general do not collect let along report this sort of information. I remember once UNICEF was discussing why Tunisia had such high rate of adolescent suicide compared to other Arab countries, and it transpires that Tunisia was the only Arab country to actually collect this data on state level. Muslim countries in general do not collect or release this sort of information, precisely because they want to maintain an image that people like you want to believe of them..........
    No, thats called inductive reasoning, so Britain has the highest crime rate in Europe (2nd in the world, so thats because only britain is the only European country who collects and releases that data. Are you being serious?

    Or, the very fact that muslims in muslim countries aren't jumping of buildings head first is the way, is reflected by the stats.

    You have not provided evidence for your claims.


    It's garbage because in the context of comparison of Western countries with Muslim countries, it's totally useless, because the number of Muslims countries being compared with it so absurdly small.
    Well, they are only comparing the countries on a similar level, I'm surprised even one muslim country is in the list.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by cisne)
    No...I agree that we are brought up by our parents as muslims and we are greatly thankful to Allah....Nobody is forced to be a muslim
    this is not true in the Maldives, or Malaysia, or Saudi Arabia, Iran etc

    in those countries, if you were born Muslim, you have to stay Muslim. It is mainly "kuffar" countries who allow complete freedom of religion
    (again,may I say)...We know whats the truth and what's not..Islam is the only religion which will give the world its true happiness and true peace...I'm a muslim..I'm an adult.....Nobody forced me to accept islam..I know the truth.....80% of Quruan has been proven to be 100% correct by means of todays science so I believe that the other 20%, hence 100% of Quruan to be 100% correct......Allah said,
    I know. I have understood by now that Muslims think that Islam means happiness and peace, that the Quran is correct and contains important scientific discoveries. I simply disagree deeply with those propositions, which are entirely unproven and simply faith-based.

    [لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ]
    (There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''
    The Ayat is mentioned for non-muslim not for muslim. ,
    why on Earth should this ayat refer to non-muslims only ? it seems as a very general statement, and a quite reasonable one at that. It makes perfect sense that people should be free to make their decisions with regard to religion. Forced allegiances make no sense at all, and only encourage hypocrisy. [quote]
    Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear.
    This, IMHO is the main illusion harboured by Muslims
    The "proofs" for Islam are far from being plain and clear. Most of the world does not adhere to Islam. Personally, I have found no sort of compelling proof for Islam, and have in fact developed a strong dislike for many of the central tenets of Islam (at least with regard to how society should be organized)
    Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam.
    This statement (which is one of the favourite statements by Muslims) is entirely meaningless. Not only is there no need to force anyone to convert to Islam, it is also impossible. You cannot force people to believe something. You could force someone to "go through the motions", but he will believe what he wants.
    Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam
    OK, it seems that "Allah" has decided to blind my heart and seal my hearing and to roast me for eternity.

    Why should I have any respect this offensive and dangerous bully ?

    Best
Updated: April 7, 2012
Article updates
Useful resources
Reputation gems:
You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.