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Calling upon all Muslims, here me out

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    (Original post by cisne)
    Okay,please can you show me any part of Islam which goes against humanity????Then say that Islam is not the path to truth......Please read the translation of Quran...
    "going against humanity" is a very vague concept, and in any case it is not Islam which goes against humanity, rather it is about 80% of humanity which disagrees with Islam

    I did read the Quran, and I didn't get the impression that it contained any sort of "path to truth"

    it is not up to me to prove, however, that it is not "the path to truth"

    rather, it is those "believers" who claim it is, who should prove their claim

    as to my personal impression about the Quran, it is quite negative, for a series of reasons which are not very original and have already been discussed on here an inordinate amount of times

    best
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    "going against humanity" is a very vague concept, and in any case it is not Islam which goes against humanity, rather it is about 80% of humanity which disagrees with Islam

    I did read the Quran, and I didn't get the impression that it contained any sort of "path to truth"

    it is not up to me to prove, however, that it is not "the path to truth"

    rather, it is those "believers" who claim it is, who should prove their claim

    as to my personal impression about the Quran, it is quite negative, for a series of reasons which are not very original and have already been discussed on here an inordinate amount of times

    best
    "I did read the Quran, and I didn't get the impression that it contained any sort of "path to truth""
    Really??? Because if you really did read the Quruan, you wouldn't be probably saying it...And how exactly you found Quruan negative??? any explanation???
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    (Original post by cisne)
    "I did read the Quran, and I didn't get the impression that it contained any sort of "path to truth""
    Really??? Because if you really did read the Quruan, you wouldn't be probably saying it...
    well, if you don't even believe me when I say that I read the Quran, there is little point in discussing

    In fact, many Muslims are under the illusion that non-Muslims becoming acquainted with Islam means that they will, almost automatically, be attracted to it

    My experience is completely different, and this is not an isolated case. Quite a few non-Muslims have studied in depth Islam , and have not felt any special attraction towards it (or have even been repelled)

    I am not, by any means, a scholar, but I do have more than just a superficial knowledge about Islam.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    well, if you don't even believe me when I say that I read the Quran, there is little point in discussing

    In fact, many Muslims are under the illusion that non-Muslims becoming acquainted with Islam means that they will, almost automatically, be attracted to it

    My experience is completely different, and this is not an isolated case. Quite a few non-Muslims have studied in depth Islam , and have not felt any special attraction towards it (or have even been repelled)

    I am not, by any means, a scholar, but I do have more than just a superficial knowledge about Islam.
    May i know your religion please???
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    (Original post by cisne)
    May i know your religion please???
    I have some personal religious ideas, but I don't follow any organized religion in particular
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    If you want Sharia law, please don't come to the Middle East. Some of us here are having a hard enough time as it is trying to get rid of the Sharia law we do have in our constitution here.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I have some personal religious ideas, but I don't follow any organized religion in particular
    okay,what do you like about Islam religion???
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    (Original post by michaelhaych)
    daily mail ready per chance?
    I thought I replied to you, 2 weeks old but i'd like to hear your reply

    Your post was: Daily mail reader per chance?

    "What does it matter?

    I don't read Papers often... If im around Cousins then mainly the Broadsheets?

    The Sun, Daily blah blah are all Tabloids ... not those basically...

    Why?

    And Lol at your picture"
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    I'm not all that savvy when it comes to Sharia Law. However I do know two things:

    1) In Islam it is stated that every muslim must follow the laws of the country in which they live. If the laws of said country prevent them from fulfilling their religious duties, or following their religion completely they must leave that country. If I'm wrong about this please do correct me, but this is what I have been taught.
    The flip side is that there is nothing to stop Muslims trying to influence and introduce Shariah laws in the countries they are in, and it is this that the OP is addressing.

    2) Most of the Sharia Laws (not all) can be followed in the west without the need for a seperate Sharia court or anything of that sort. I think the only ones that you wouldn't be able to follow in the west are the laws for homocide, and adultery. However even when it comes to these laws, it's not as simple as an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.
    Sure for personal/family law. But Shariah is more encompassing (unfortunately) than just marriage, divorce and inheritance. There is policing blasphemy, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, music, imagery and photography, just to name a few.......

    Furthermore many of the muslim countries do not follow Sharia, they say they do but what they're actually doing is abusing Sharia and using it to validate their own henious crimes.
    No country ever has - and not country ever will - follow Shariah law.

    Shaikh Hamza Yusuf said he feels it is easier for him to practise Islam in the west than most muslim countries, and I agree with him on this.
    Indeed, but most scholars do not agree with him.
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    (Original post by cisne)
    okay,what do you like about Islam religion???
    not much, I must say

    when Islam spread (7th, 8th, 9th century) it was undoubtedly a progressive force

    however, by now this is over, and Islam strikes me (I hope you will excuse my sincerity) as a relic of the past

    confusion between religion and State, relations between sexes, between Muslims and non-Muslims, justice and punishments, inheritance, fiscal and economic organization etc

    basically, I disagree with most every element of the Islamic political, economic and social order
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    Muslims are free to practice their religion here. They can wear the Burqa, they can have days off for Eid, they have access to halal food all the time. I don't want the shariah law - despite being a Muslim (a not so religious one) After all the majority are Christian. Happiness for the greatest number!
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    (Original post by starshine123)
    Well I don't know about that. Isn't the Govt itself enough to stop this.
    There are lots of way that laws can be changed by people at the grassroots.

    (Original post by starshine123)
    The only way Sharia can be forced on the countries is if there is a civil war, or an invasion by a muslim country. I think both those scenarios are extremely unlikely.
    Well it was how Islam was spread in the past, so not so unlikely it could do so in the future.

    And Shariah could be adopted if the majority of people in the West were convinced that they wanted it.

    (Original post by starshine123)
    You're right. The laws on music, imagery, photography etc can still be upheld within the muslim community though. All that's needed is for a scholar to make ruling and then all the followers of said scholar adhere to that.
    Surely everything could be upheld in "the community" (whatever that is) though. Surely a truly Islamic community ruled according to Shariah would have prohibited and be punishing all form of blasphemy, idolatry, music, etc etc, and not allowing it to exist?

    (Original post by starshine123)
    Actually he's one of the most respected scholars in the west, and is praised and recommend by other scholars. Yes there are some scholars who disagree with him, but I wouldn't say most.
    He is "respected" by Western leaders and liberal Muslims. These are not representative of Muslims, and the majority of Muslim scholars in the world do not agree with his heretical beliefs.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    not much, I must say

    when Islam spread (7th, 8th, 9th century) it was undoubtedly a progressive force

    however, by now this is over, and Islam strikes me (I hope you will excuse my sincerity) as a relic of the past

    confusion between religion and State, relations between sexes, between Muslims and non-Muslims, justice and punishments, inheritance, fiscal and economic organization etc

    basically, I disagree with most every element of the Islamic political, economic and social order
    ooow...Please don't mind.."confusion between religion and State, relations between sexes, between Muslims and non-Muslims, justice and punishments, inheritance, fiscal and economic organization" can you explain this a little bit...please??
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    Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.(Surah An-Nahl : 125)

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.( Surah Al-Hujurat : 13)

    Indeed, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Indeed, Allah is ever Hearing and Seeing. ( Surah Al-Nisa : 58 )


    And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.( Surah Al-Baqarah :

    Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are self-deluding and boastful.(Surah An-Nisa' : 36)

    We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain [their affairs] in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.( Surah Al-Hadeed : 25 )


    And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful. ( Surah A-Baqarah : 143 )

    http://quran.com/
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    (Original post by Goku101)
    Never have i thought there would be a day in which i would also fall blindly to the trap of creating a Muslim related thread.

    Anyway, i want to ask you devout Muslims (forgive the title) that really want sharia law in the UK or anywhere around the world where they live, why don't you just go to countries that do have it? like those in the middle east? wouldn't you feel right a home? you come to the west to live a better life, but you have to follow the laws laid out here that have made the west the better and dominant place in the world and respect it.

    sure, the middle east is a bad place to live, but at least they have the laws right? ever thought it might be bad because they implement the laws however small?

    Why the negs bro? you know its true

    i bet your only neging me because your angry at me pointing out something you dont want pointing out do you?

    Keep negging, come at me bro!

    I'm a 17 year old female Muslim. Would I say devout? I pray 5 times a day, I fast, and try my best to follow the religion, and try to incorporate Islam in my everyday life.However, I bet if you judged me by appearance you wouldn't think so.

    I have researched Shari'ah law myself, honestly as a result of the negativity surrounding Islam in the media, and you know what, it is fair. If you're not Muslim, you it might bizarre, but trust me, when you truly find out what it is and not just the 'oh women are stoned to death' rubbish you'd realize how fair it is.

    Despite this, I wouldn't want it in the UK, because this is supposed to be a Christian country, and as said in Islam, a Muslim should abide by the law of the land he or she lives in unless it stops you from practising Islam.
    The UK allows freedom of religion, and so there isn't a problem here.

    There is a huge misconception of Shariah Law. It frustrates me, because half the time, the actions in the Middle east concerning Shariah law are not defensible. Those in power in the Arab countries are corrupt and in some cases act upon their misogynistic views, which, if they truly followed Islam, they wouldn't have. The manner in which they impose certain sentences angers me, and its these so-called Muslims governments/judges which need to be dealt with, not Islam itself.
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    (Original post by almas94)
    I'm a 17 year old female Muslim. Would I say devout? I pray 5 times a day, I fast, and try my best to follow the religion, and try to incorporate Islam in my everyday life.However, I bet if you judged me by appearance you wouldn't think so.

    I have researched Shari'ah law myself, honestly as a result of the negativity surrounding Islam in the media, and you know what, it is fair. If you're not Muslim, you it might bizarre, but trust me, when you truly find out what it is and not just the 'oh women are stoned to death' rubbish you'd realize how fair it is.

    Despite this, I wouldn't want it in the UK, because this is supposed to be a Christian country, and as said in Islam, a Muslim should abide by the law of the land he or she lives in unless it stops you from practising Islam.
    The UK allows freedom of religion, and so there isn't a problem here.

    There is a huge misconception of Shariah Law. It frustrates me, because half the time, the actions in the Middle east concerning Shariah law are not defensible. Those in power in the Arab countries are corrupt and in some cases act upon their misogynistic views, which, if they truly followed Islam, they wouldn't have. The manner in which they impose certain sentences angers me, and its these so-called Muslims governments/judges which need to be dealt with, not Islam itself.
    look lady, I have to confess something, i was actually born and raised a Muslim, but never followed it properly and i have now entirely gave up the whole concept of religion itself, not just Islam, religion is in my opinion a pile of garbage.

    Please don't lecture me at how fair Islam is, as a 19 year old person, who has given up religion as a whole, i have researched up a VERY large number of religions as well as Islam for comparisons, and still do, just because i think that the old stories are fascinating, like a fairy-tale.

    The religion IS UNFAIR, and so are most other religion's if not all. You say that i wouldn't be able to tell you are a devout Muslim based on your appearance? if that's the case, then you obviously don't wear a hi-jab, burka etc. I know that you don't have too, but your statement has emphasis suggesting that you cherry-pick bit's from the religion.
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    Okay first, I don't intend to 'lecture' anyone, second, your posts suggests you're rather annoyed, if that's what my post came across as doing, i'm sorry, but it's exactly what I didn't want to do.

    You say you've researched all religions, and as a a former Muslim, have given up on all religion. That's obviously a big commitment to make in your life, and I am interested to know, if you don't mind, why?

    You say I appear cherry-pick bits from my religion.
    Humans aren't perfect, and we never will be, that's the point of life. I don't wear a hijab right now, insha'allah I will, and its my downfall. But i believe my intentions are somewhat pure. I was never brought up to be religious, and it was only a few years ago with difficult family circumstances in which the importance of religion came to me. I don't conform to the full ideology of what many believe a Muslim should do and be, but it doesn't mean I pick and choose bits of the religion which suit me. It simply means I've got room to improve.
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    (Original post by almas94)
    Okay first, I don't intend to 'lecture' anyone, second, your posts suggests you're rather annoyed, if that's what my post came across as doing, i'm sorry, but it's exactly what I didn't want to do.

    You say you've researched all religions, and as a a former Muslim, have given up on all religion. That's obviously a big commitment to make in your life, and I am interested to know, if you don't mind, why?

    You say I appear cherry-pick bits from my religion.
    Humans aren't perfect, and we never will be, that's the point of life. I don't wear a hijab right now, insha'allah I will, and its my downfall. But i believe my intentions are somewhat pure. I was never brought up to be religious, and it was only a few years ago with difficult family circumstances in which the importance of religion came to me. I don't conform to the full ideology of what many believe a Muslim should do and be, but it doesn't mean I pick and choose bits of the religion which suit me. It simply means I've got room to improve.
    I'm sorry that i took it the wrong way, but i didn't say all religion's, i said many. Anyway, the reason i gave up religion is because of science. I'm a scientific thinker, i'm doing a science degree at university at the moment and people ask me why i don't believe in religion and i say because i understand how the universe work's (albeit I'm only second year), still that's enough, and they say well something must of created all of us, we are so complex, did we just come out of nothing? well no, we didn't come out of nothing, we evolved through million's of years, not by chance but by natural selection, but they don't understand what i mean because they have not studied it and only refute my answers which annoys me. So i say, well who created god? their answer is no-one, god is god, he was always there. Where's the evidence? their answer is look at all the miracles, complex life etc etc. Do you now understand why i'm now an atheist? There are thousands of religions in the world, who is to say that they have the correct one? there is only ONE standard model of the particle's of the universe and it is accepted by all scientists. Most religion's are based around ONE book, written thousand's of years ago by superstitious people, if these books were to be published in the 21st century, they would be labelled as fairy-tales. Tell me something, if you went outside now and told loads of people that your a new prophet, sent by god to rid the world of violence, what would the reaction be? If you took drastic action to prove that you are a daughter of god, would you not end up in a mental hospital?
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    (Original post by cisne)
    ooow...Please don't mind.."confusion between religion and State, relations between sexes, between Muslims and non-Muslims, justice and punishments, inheritance, fiscal and economic organization" can you explain this a little bit...please??
    hi cisne

    you are asking me in fact to write a treatise on Islam...

    just a few points, in particular on separation between religion and State:

    Islam aspires to "make Allah's word reign supreme" and to implement the "Islamic State", which ideally would extend to the whole world

    In this "Islamic State" (Caliphate), separation between State and religion would of course fall. Non-Muslims would be tolerated, but would be excluded from exerting authority over Muslims (excluded not only from the Caliphal post, bust also e.g. from judging over Muslims)

    Citizens would be classified according to their religious allegiance, non-Muslims would be excluded from marrying Muslims -with the exception of Muslim men marrying women from the "people of the Book". Separate judicial systems would be set up (but a case involving at the same time Muslims and non-Muslims would be judged by a Muslim judge). Separate fiscal systems would also be set up, with Christians and Jews being subject to the Jizyah tax - anybody's guess on the practical effects, since there is no fixed amount for it.

    In other words, some sort of "religious apartheid" would be set up. This system may have worked in the middle ages, but would be impossible to operate in present societies, where people mix and mingle, instead of living in well-defined religious communities.

    No non-Muslim would accept, unless under threat of violence, to live in a State where a religion which is alien to him is "paramount" and where, to all effects, he is excluded from political power, even if tolerated.

    Separation between religion and State is a recent conquest (a result of the Enlightenment and the French revolution) and it ensures that all citizens feel that there is no religious discrimination. It is impossible to believe that any step back from this achievement could be accepted by non-Muslims.

    Best
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    (Original post by almas94)
    I don't conform to the full ideology of what many believe a Muslim should do and be, but it doesn't mean I pick and choose bits of the religion which suit me. It simply means I've got room to improve.
    Even if most Muslims will deny it, everyone "picks and chooses" in matters of religion

    We simply cannot, when dealing with religion, ignore our rationality and our experiences - our person

    So, if something does not convince you, you simply will not believe it - whatever your religion may say and however strongly you may try to force yourself to believe it

    So, what people do is simply this - in the religious area, they "pick and choose", to the extent they are able to do so while still remaining -more or less- in "good faith" and "within the fold of XY"

    Luckily, most religious precepts afford some leeway for "interpretation", "translation", "difference of opinion" etc then there is the "catch all" exception ("this was applicable in those times, now times are very much different, you have to look at the wider context and so on and so forth"

    Of course, the further you stray from literal interpretation of the "holy books", the less point there is in following a religion at all

    Why not simply become a "free-thinker", and enjoy a well-deserved freedom of thought and entire personal responsibility for all of your thoughts and deeds ?

    best
Updated: April 7, 2012
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