Results are out! Find what you need...fast. Get quick advice or join the chat
Hey there! Sign in to have your say on this topicNew here? Join for free to post

Ban on facial concealment...what do you think?

Announcements Posted on
  • View Poll Results: Should a ban on facial concealment be pursued?
    Yes
    89
    57.79%
    No
    65
    42.21%

    • 34 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by navarre)
    Great argument! Care to explain what I've said that's xenophobic? Or what I've said that's illogical? Feel free to not respond if you can't substantiate your claims!
    I can always trust religion and its defenders to make unsubstantiated claims... don't blame the rest of us when we demand evidence!
    I'm not religious and I'm not defending religion. I have no love for any religion.

    You need to work out what you're arguing against and why and bring that to the table, instead of mumbling a weak half-argument about facial concealment in general and then switching to another argument about the women who wear burqas etc and then a different argument about something else vaguely related to facial concealment.

    You just come across as trying to find any justification for being against Muslim women wearing headscarves/burqas/whatever and come up with a different aspect you have a problem with each time and it comes across as pure bull**** because you keep changing your story. If you hate Muslims and/or aspects of Middle-Eastern culture, you're probably a close-minded ********, but at least be clear about it instead of pretending you're acting standing up for public safety/women's rights/anything else.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ronove)
    I'm not religious and I'm not defending religion. I have no love for any religion.

    You need to work out what you're arguing against and why and bring that to the table, instead of mumbling a weak half-argument about facial concealment in general and then switching to another argument about the women who wear burqas etc and then a different argument about something else vaguely related to facial concealment.

    You just come across as trying to find any justification for being against Muslim women wearing headscarves/burqas/whatever and come up with a different aspect you have a problem with each time and it comes across as pure bull**** because you keep changing your story. If you hate Muslims and/or aspects of Middle-Eastern culture, you're probably a close-minded ********, but at least be clear about it instead of pretending you're acting standing up for public safety/women's rights/anything else.
    Face concealment is not 'vaguely related' to the burqa. The two go hand in hand. You realise that the burqa is a form of facial concealment, right? Just thought I'd get that out there, stop you from looking stupid! If you have found flaws in my argument, go ahead and expose them- if not, don't say anything at all!

    I have not changed my 'story'. There are a 101 reasons to be against the burqa, I have not even touched the surface. I do not hate anyone. I hate aspects of religion that are sexist, vile and stupid.. . Sorry if that makes me a bad person or 'close minded', but if that's the price to pay, so be it. I'd chose rational thought over acceptance of every stupid idea any day.

    You have confused hating a bit of clothing to hating 1.5 billion people- without commenting on what a stupid mistake that is (or even what sort of twisted mindset required to make such a connection), I would advise you well to learn the difference.

    As for your unfounded assertions, general confusion, playing the rather desperate 'xenophobic' card when religion is attacked and demonstrably lack of knowledge on the subject, I would not be surprised at all if you were religious. If not, then you would make an excellent religious apologist. I'm sure the Catholic Church might be looking for people like you to brand those who are against the molesting of children as close minded and against Latin culture. Because that's the same 5-grader level of argument you are pursuing.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    I'm in complete opposition to any potential ban.

    • 34 followers
    Online

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by navarre)
    Face concealment is not 'vaguely related' to the burqa. The two go hand in hand. You realise that the burqa is a form of facial concealment, right? Just thought I'd get that out there, stop you from looking stupid! If you have found flaws in my argument, go ahead and expose them- if not, don't say anything at all!
    Nowhere did I say that the burqa is only vaguely related to facial concealment. I mentioned the burqa as something separate to your other vaguely-related arguments. Just because I didn't annotate your posts for you it doesn't mean my assertions about the nature of your argumentation are unfounded. In fact the reason I frankly couldn't possibly be arsed to go through and highlight each weak point is because I considered it to be patently obvious.

    You can't win an argument by spewing a load of cocky chat.
    I have not changed my 'story'. There are a 101 reasons to be against the burqa, I have not even touched the surface. I do not hate anyone. I hate aspects of religion that are sexist, vile and stupid.. . Sorry if that makes me a bad person or 'close minded', but if that's the price to pay, so be it. I'd chose rational thought over acceptance of every stupid idea any day.
    The only arguments you should be putting forward on this issue are those relevant to whether facial concealment should be allowed in this society. Therefore any arguments which are specific to the burqa and which do not apply to balaclavas/motorcycle helmets etc are in all likelihood completely irrelevant and just you using the opportunity to regurgitate every argument you can think of on female Islamic dress. Not to mention the fact that you make out women wearing burqas/headscarves are oppressed by the practice, and then argue that we should impose a law prohibiting them from wearing them. Irony much?
    • 3 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Why do people always use the argument that muslim women need to have their passports checked or need to be ID'd "like everyone else" so they can't wear it? Surely we all realise that muslim women show their face in such situations? They aren't stupid, everybody understands how facial recognition with a photo works - you need the live image too.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ronove)
    Nowhere did I say that the burqa is only vaguely related to facial concealment. I mentioned the burqa as something separate to your other vaguely-related arguments. Just because I didn't annotate your posts for you it doesn't mean my assertions about the nature of your argumentation are unfounded. In fact the reason I frankly couldn't possibly be arsed to go through and highlight each weak point is because I considered it to be patently obvious.

    You can't win an argument by spewing a load of cocky chat.

    The only arguments you should be putting forward on this issue are those relevant to whether facial concealment should be allowed in this society. Therefore any arguments which are specific to the burqa and which do not apply to balaclavas/motorcycle helmets etc are in all likelihood completely irrelevant and just you using the opportunity to regurgitate every argument you can think of on female Islamic dress. Not to mention the fact that you make out women wearing burqas/headscarves are oppressed by the practice, and then argue that we should impose a law prohibiting them from wearing them. Irony much?
    And you can't win an argument by baseless insults, rash and stupid slippery slope generalisations (you hate the burqa so you hate every single one of the 1.5 billion people vaguely connected to it!) and your absurd notion regarding my lack of sincerity- as if sincerity has any bearing on the validity of an argument.

    My arguments against the burqa have been exclusively against the burqa; for how is wearing a motorcycle helmet for protection giving the impression your face is a sex object that needs to remain covered? When have you ever encountered someone wearing a balaclava to prove to their deity what a great person they are?

    I have not mentioned anything about headscarves, so best not to make things up- that's called lying. You have lied enough in this debate, you don't get to do it any more. Nor have I advocated banning the burqa. I'd imagine it'll die out in this country in a few more generations, though admittedly if we were a more rational lot it'd have been ridiculed out of existence long ago.

    Next time you reply, don't consult your imagination, but base it on what I've actually said. K?
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by No Man)
    Even though a very high majority of their population are Muslim.
    Having a majority Muslim population doesn't mean its an Islamic country. Once it has Shariah Law implemented, THEN it is an Islamic country.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Infallible)
    I don't have to explain my decisions. If I want to wear something, why can't I?
    LOL. same can be said for those who wear a niqab.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by navarre)
    You still don't understand. I'll try and explain to you again, and then after that, I won't bother- religious folks tend not to understand simple things such as evolution, so I wouldn't be surprised if you could not understand this.

    Women in Islam cover their face because Islam sees the female face as a sex object. If it did not, there would be no need for them to cover their face. Understand? You cover yourself because your religion sees your body as a sex object- if it didn't, there would be no need to cover yourself up in the first place.
    My girlfriend does not see her face or her hair as a sex object, and neither do I- we both do not believe in such sexist drivel. Therefore, she does not cover her hair or face. It is not 'immodest'. She's a very modest person. You actually have to get to know her to know that she's modest though, she doesn't try the easy way out by wearing something 'modest'. Modesty comes from her heart, not by the clothes she wears.

    Islamic societies treat women better? Haha. Sure, just ask Saudi women who can't drive and are forced to dress in niqabs, or Afghan women who can't go to school, or Pakistani women in Karachi, the majority of which have been raped by their husbands. I'm sure these women will show you just how 'respected' they are lol!

    Oh give it a rest. Just because i'm not agreeing with you doesnt mean i don't 'understand'.

    And i'm sorry, but Islam does not require a female to cover her face so you have don't really have a point by saying 'Women in Islam cover their face because Islam sees the female face as a sex object'.

    And yes you have to be modest from within as well as outside otherwise there is little point in somebody covering their hair/face and consuming alcohol/pork etc.
    I don't get it when Muslim women say they're modest and then don't bother to cover up. How does that even make sense? If you truly are 'modest' then there should be no problem at all in wearing decent clothes and covering your hair.

    I never said 'Islamic societies' treat women better. I said ISLAM does. There's a difference mate, and all of the examples you've given are cultural issues and i'm talking about religion.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by chill543)
    once again sir, you have missed the piont.
    Maybe thats because you have no valid point. And i'm no sir.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Issy123)
    Maybe thats because you have no valid point. And i'm no sir.
    no, you just miss read.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by chill543)
    no, you just miss read.
    Clearly what i say won't make a difference to your opinion and what you say won't make a difference to my opinion. So lets just leave it at that.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Issy123)
    Oh give it a rest. Just because i'm not agreeing with you doesnt mean i don't 'understand'.

    And i'm sorry, but Islam does not require a female to cover her face so you have don't really have a point by saying 'Women in Islam cover their face because Islam sees the female face as a sex object'.

    And yes you have to be modest from within as well as outside otherwise there is little point in somebody covering their hair/face and consuming alcohol/pork etc.
    I don't get it when Muslim women say they're modest and then don't bother to cover up. How does that even make sense? If you truly are 'modest' then there should be no problem at all in wearing decent clothes and covering your hair.

    I never said 'Islamic societies' treat women better. I said ISLAM does. There's a difference mate, and all of the examples you've given are cultural issues and i'm talking about religion.
    Why do people always insist that the worst parts of their religion are really 'cultural'? Well duh! What is religion if not an expression of culture that claims belief in a deity? Every religion has a culture. And from the culture will inevitably come things that are seen as ridiculous or even wrong by others.

    If Islam treats women right, why is this not present in any Islamic society? Why do (some interpretations) prescribe niqabs to women? Why is a woman's testimony worth less than a man, or some Islamic 'scholars' (if the phrase is used lightly) consent to beating a wife?

    Modesty does not have to involve clothing! People can dress modestly and have the most immodest personality. Why do you judge by appearances? Are you aware that appearances can be deceiving? Do you think people who wear glasses are all clever, or that people who are overweight are all bubbly?

    Covering your hair does not make you any more modest than wearing glasses makes you clever. You simply can't judge someone's character on what they are wearing.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Issy123)
    Clearly what i say won't make a difference to your opinion and what you say won't make a difference to my opinion. So lets just leave it at that.
    ok (went to rate this up and it told me ive rated you to much:confused: lol )
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Issy123)
    LOL. same can be said for those who wear a niqab.
    I'm not disagreeing, but why wouldn't I be able to wear what I like?
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    It's like walking around with a newspaper in front of my face or looking down on phone hiding you from view (only just) but I wouldn't deem that oppressive, neither should this be.

    Seeing the pictures of Kate Middleton today, I can't imagine the amount of time, energy and money it took to look like that.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Yeah.

    What's the difference between them wearing a Burka and me in a balaclava and Donkey Jacket?

    Yes religion and everything, but people don't walk around with signs saying what religion they are so you wouldn't know anyway.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by navarre)
    Why do people always insist that the worst parts of their religion are really 'cultural'? Well duh! What is religion if not an expression of culture that claims belief in a deity? Every religion has a culture. And from the culture will inevitably come things that are seen as ridiculous or even wrong by others.

    If Islam treats women right, why is this not present in any Islamic society? Why do (some interpretations) prescribe niqabs to women? Why is a woman's testimony worth less than a man, or some Islamic 'scholars' (if the phrase is used lightly) consent to beating a wife?

    Modesty does not have to involve clothing! People can dress modestly and have the most immodest personality. Why do you judge by appearances? Are you aware that appearances can be deceiving? Do you think people who wear glasses are all clever, or that people who are overweight are all bubbly?

    Covering your hair does not make you any more modest than wearing glasses makes you clever. You simply can't judge someone's character on what they are wearing.
    CAUSE IT IS CULTURE. And i thought you said your previous post was your last one? haha.
    And that really does not make any sense, there is no place for culture in religion. Nowadays you get more people practicing culture and passing it off as religion and fulfilling less requirements of what the religion actually says.

    And i don't know who your sources are but you've answered your question yourself by saying SOME. And with regards to your claim on beating your wife, its not permissible to beat your wife, you may use LIGHT DISCIPLINARY ACTION but only in extreme cases where you think it will benefit and not harm the relationship.

    Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (Quran: An-Nisaa 34-35)

    The word beating isn't an actual beating. It is merely 'a light tap that leaves no mark' as the Prophet (peace be upon him) said.

    Now if a man chooses to abuse this then its his fault.

    And i'm not saying that a person covering up is necessarily modest. I'm just saying if a person is truly modest then they shouldnt have a problem covering up.
    Of course just because someone does cover up doesnt mean they are modest, modesty comes from within too, so you can't really be modest if you cover up and then go sleep with your next door neighbour.
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by chill543)
    ok (went to rate this up and it told me ive rated you to much:confused: lol )
    have you been giving me like a dozen neg ratings or something? :L
    • 7 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Infallible)
    I'm not disagreeing, but why wouldn't I be able to wear what I like?
    I don't know. I don't agree with any ban on facial concealment.

Reply

Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?
  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?
  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. By joining you agree to our Ts and Cs, privacy policy and site rules

  2. Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: March 10, 2012
New on TSR

The future of apprenticeships

Join the discussion in the apprenticeships hub!

Article updates
Useful resources
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.