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University of St Andrews

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Prestige of St Andrews

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Reply 60

Jackkkkk

Original post by floridadad55

As an American, I am still trying to ascertain the quality of St Andrews. It is not too well known in America, where the only UK colleges we typically know about are Oxford, Cambridge, and perhaps LSE.

I know about the league tables, but I am interested in YOUR opinion. Is it considered a VERY prestigious school, a SOMEWHAT prestigious school, or just a DECENT school. I know it is not Oxford or Cambridge, but is it close?

By the way, if my son attends there, it would be for international relations.

Trust me, St Andrews is world class! Top education, exceptionally prestigious and have you seen it - stunning ! Oxbridge are ahead yes but then it's similar to comparing Harvard and Yale to the rest of ivy league schools !
The UK ivy league would probably be Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Bristol, Warwick, Durham and St Andrews ( probably close to the top of these !). Competition is tough and a good degree from there will be just as respected as a degree from Oxbridge in the 'real' world ! Honestly it's brilliant - wish I applied ! Only thing that put me off was distance seeing as I come from south England :tongue:

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

University of St Andrews

Reply 61

languagelover

To reiterate,
I don't think St Andrews quite compares to an Oxford/ Cambridge degree but it would be about 1 step down on the ladder with the likes of Durham, LSE, UCL etc. (although universities mentioned generally rank higher) It's generally around 5th/6th on the league table (out of roughly 120). It's also quite hard to compare St Andrews to other Universities due to its small size, which means it has a lower research output than other larger top universities. However it does have an very good reputation for teaching, which is very important at undergrad level. (this is one of the reasons along with student satisfaction that it does so well on the league tables)

Depending on the course, I would say that it has very good graduate prospects and there are careers fairs for Law, and management and finance, if interested. For IR, The International Relations school ranks 2nd after Cambridge according to the Guardian University Guide. (although rankings have to be taken with a pinch of salt).

Prestige is hard to judge but it is a world-class university, it is the 3rd oldest university in the English speaking world, and it is very competitive. (7 applications per place). It depends what you class as prestige!

I'm a prospective student for languages and St Andrews was my 2nd option (first option was Cambridge). I've tried to give you a fairly unbiased perspective but I do feel very pleased to have a St Andrews University place!

Reply 62

Gridiron-Gangster

Original post by Jackkkkk

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

I'd agree with the first five being in a UK Ivy League equivalent, not sure about the others.

Reply 63

Tsunami2011

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

I'd agree with the first five being in a UK Ivy League equivalent, not sure about the others.

If you look at the figures, Oxbridge, Imperial and LSE are the only ones listed who have quite a gap on the rest. UCL is pretty inseparable from the other mentioned universities, aside from 'prestige'/worldwide rep' remember that the Ivy league, does have some 'weaker members. I.e Brown and Cornell are not really comparable to Harvard and Yale.

Reply 64

Jackkkkk

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

I'd agree with the first five being in a UK Ivy League equivalent, not sure about the others.

Ivy League is comprised of 8 Universities so I think those are the most 'respected' in the UK (regardless of league tables).
But yes of course the first 5 are the best i would say. But then again the ivy league uni's are segragated, I mean Penn is not on par with Harvard or Pricnceton. Alos, MIT isnt even part of Ivy league.

This is what the sunday Times thinks;

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/sunday_times_reveals/

I think its also important to make a distiction between repuatation and league ranks, Employers opinion is probably a good indicator of repuation - worldwide

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/indicator-rankings/employer-review

Reply 65

Gridiron-Gangster

Original post by Jackkkkk

Oh I'm aware of the fact the Ivies aren't necessarily the best colleges in the states. Stanford, Chicago, MIT, Caltech, Johns Hopkins aren't in the Ivy League but they're considered amongst the best universities in the world and have a higher standing than say some of the Ivies like Dartmouth or Brown. Although almost certainly at the undergraduate level the Ivies are amongst the most selective colleges

Reply 66

AviG123

Original post by languagelover

To reiterate,
I don't think St Andrews quite compares to an Oxford/Cambridge degree but it would be about 1 step down on the ladder with the likes of Durham, LSE, UCL etc.

I would totally agree with you in this. But I'm sure there are more than 7 applicants per place on average, I think it is more closer to 10 or 11.

Reply 67

AviG123

Original post by War and Peace

If your point is that some of the best universities in the US don't often share students with St Andrews, then I'd have to disagree. Albeit a purely anecdotal example, I went to a top 5 university in the US and then did graduate work at St Andrews. The decision was not at all viewed as strange by my friends/colleagues and I met plenty of people from other elite US universities studying at St Andrews..

This is an excellent point, very true as well. Plus, the U of St Andrews has many student links with American universities such as UC Berkeley, UC Los Angeles, UC San Diego and the College of William and Mary. It has an excellent reputation domestically, but it has an even better reputation in the US.

Reply 68

Tsunami2011

Original post by AviG123

Do not confuse reputation with popularity. St Andrews is more popular in the US, but the INFORMED Americans that I know still rate it below LSE, Imperial and UCL, which is often the case in the UK.

Reply 69

languagelover

Original post by AviG123

I would totally agree with you in this. But I'm sure there are more than 7 applicants per place on average, I think it is more closer to 10 or 11.

That's what I thought too, except the times statistics showed 7. Perhaps the amount of applicants decreased due to the new fees?

Reply 70

Ecosse_14

Original post by languagelover

That's what I thought too, except the times statistics showed 7. Perhaps the amount of applicants decreased due to the new fees?

The amount of applicants actually increased this year.

Reply 71

floridadad55

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

I'd agree with the first five being in a UK Ivy League equivalent, not sure about the others.

The new edition of The Fiske college guide, which is an American publication, has a section on Scottish Universities. It mentions in the beginning of its St Andrews "blurb" that in its view, St Andrews is similar to a Brown University. Also, the guide lists for each school "overlapping" schools. So, for example, the University of Minnesota blurb might list University of Iowa as an overlapping school. The guide lists Edinburgh and Glasgow as being overlapping with each other, but lists Cambridge and Princeton as overlapping schools for St Andrews.

Anyway, for what it is worth, that is one perspective, albeit it an American perspective, on the prestige of St Andrews.

Reply 72

Gridiron-Gangster

Original post by floridadad55

I don't doubt for a moment that St A's is a great university. Even before Prince William enrolled it was highly regarded. My sister who's a medic told me that back when she was applying traditionally St Andrew's and Edinburgh were amongst the most competitive medical schools to gain entry to. St Andrew's has never been a bad university. In terms of research prowess and global reach it probably lacks with say it's bigger brothers in Glasgow and Edinburgh but that's owing to the location of the university rather than anything to do with it's academic prowess. It was always "there in the mist" but it's location probably meant it escaped potential students' attentions until the futture King decided to study there and now it's amongst one of the most popular in the UK.

If you're son is wanting too study Medicine, IR or an Arts/Humanities subject then St Andrew's is strong in those. If you're expectng somewhere which has a strong Business School and every Investment Bank beating a path to your door then really London (LSE) is the better choice.

The thing with UK universities as opposed to US universities is that they're more renowned for specialising in certain fields e.g Manchester and Engineering, Warwick and Maths/Business, Queen Mary (Bart's) in Medicine and Dentistry, City (CASS) and there aren't as manny universities in the UK which are elite in all their programmes unlike say in the US where you have at least about 15.......off the top of my head I'd say the Ivies (8), MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Chicago, Berkeley, UCLA, Duke, Johns Hopkins.

In the UK the only universities I would say that are truly elite in terms of being strong in every department they have Oxford and Cambridge for sure, then Imperial, LSE, possibly UCL and perhaps King's and Edinburgh. I mean you have some excellent universities other than those; Manchester, Exeter, York, Durham, St Andrew's, Bristol, Nottingham, Warwick, Birmingham, Glasgow etc but they don't command the "brand-name" power that the top American Universities have but that's more to do with the way UK universities promote themselves as opposed to any indication of their quality.

Reply 73

Gridiron-Gangster

Original post by floridadad55

Just out of curiousity, I'm thinking of applying for a Master's at Dartmouth College. How is Dartmouth College regarded in the US compared witht he other Ivies and as an elite institution?

I mean I've always gathered that as an Ivy and one of the colonial colleges it's always enjoyed a high reputation for selectivity especially at the Undergraduate level and the medical school and business school are both world-class. But in the world rankings it's just inside the top 100 and whilst it is known worldwide as an Ivy I just wonder if it's seen as "the poor little relation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton" rather than an elite institution.

I'm looking at going to graduate medical school in the UK in 2013 or 2014 and aiming for Oxford or Cambridge and hoping getting a place at an institution like Dartmouth would strengthen my credentials especially if I were to get a Dartmouth tutor to write my reference or as you Americans call it "letter of recommendation"?

I'm also applying to UPenn and Chicago. Was looking at Harvard namely the Extension School but the programmes seem rather long winded and they don't issue visas for full time international students (except for the Summer school). And also I've been hearing some really bad vibes about the view on the Extension School especially in the US and in "Harvard Circles".

Reply 74

floridadad55

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

Just out of curiousity, I'm thinking of applying for a Master's at Dartmouth College. How is Dartmouth College regarded in the US compared witht he other Ivies and as an elite institution?

I mean I've always gathered that as an Ivy and one of the colonial colleges it's always enjoyed a high reputation for selectivity especially at the Undergraduate level and the medical school and business school are both world-class. But in the world rankings it's just inside the top 100 and whilst it is known worldwide as an Ivy I just wonder if it's seen as "the poor little relation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton" rather than an elite institution.

school in the UK in 2013 or 2014 and aiming for Oxford or Cambridge and hoping getting a place at an institution like Dartmouth would strengthen my credentials especially if I were to get a Dartmouth tutor to write my reference or as you Americans call it "letter of recommendation"?

Gridiron:

Dartmouth is extremely highly regarded in the US. I realize it doesn't rank that high on the "world" rankings, but that is because the criteria used in the world rankings tend to favor large institutions, such as the University of Michigan. Some of the very reasons why it may be ranked lower than expected in the world rankings are some of Dartmouth's biggest positives. By the way, the acceptance rate is just 12%, and assuming you are not an athlete or a minority, YOUR acceptance rate would therefore be lower than 12%.

Reply 75

Tsunami2011

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

In the UK the only universities I would say that are truly elite in terms of being strong in every department they have Oxford and Cambridge for sure, then Imperial, LSE, possibly UCL and perhaps King's and Edinburgh.

Agree with everything you've said except this. Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Imperial are the only UK schools who fit into that criteria. The last three are no better than the rest of the good universities in regards to 'top departments'

Reply 76

Gridiron-Gangster

Original post by Tsunami2011

Well to be honest......yeah I'd say you were right. but outside the top 4 of Ox, Cam, Imp and LSE I'd say UCL, KCL and Edinburgh follow very close behind.

Durham and York and Exeter are very good universities but lack the worldwide recognition they deserve. I think it's more location than the actually quality of the university. It never ceases to amaze me how so many international students, tourists, people outside the UK seem to think the life revolves entirely around London and the rest of the UK is somehow isolated from the global community.

Reply 77

Gridiron-Gangster

[QUOTE="floridadad55;38551895"]

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

Just out of curiousity, I'm thinking of applying for a Master's at Dartmouth College. How is Dartmouth College regarded in the US compared witht he other Ivies and as an elite institution?

I mean I've always gathered that as an Ivy and one of the colonial colleges it's always enjoyed a high reputation for selectivity especially at the Undergraduate level and the medical school and business school are both world-class. But in the world rankings it's just inside the top 100 and whilst it is known worldwide as an Ivy I just wonder if it's seen as "the poor little relation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton" rather than an elite institution.

school in the UK in 2013 or 2014 and aiming for Oxford or Cambridge and hoping getting a place at an institution like Dartmouth would strengthen my credentials especially if I were to get a Dartmouth tutor to write my reference or as you Americans call it "letter of recommendation"?

Gridiron:

Dartmouth is extremely highly regarded in the US. I realize it doesn't rank that high on the "world" rankings, but that is because the criteria used in the world rankings tend to favor large institutions, such as the University of Michigan. Some of the very reasons why it may be ranked lower than expected in the world rankings are some of Dartmouth's biggest positives. By the way, the acceptance rate is just 12%, and assuming you are not an athlete or a minority, YOUR acceptance rate would therefore be lower than 12%.

Yeah the world rankings do tend to favour large research universities aand the size of their graduate student numbers etc as opposed to old-fashiond selectivity and hard graft which is why univerrsities like Durham and St Andrew's rank so highly in the national rankings but not so highly in the world rankings. The reverse is true for universities like say Manchester and Birmingham which are of course very excellent institutions but I don't think anyone for any one moment would associate Birmingham or Manchester with academic selectivity or a bastion of future PMs, CEOs, Cabinet Ministers etc.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 78

usavegasgraduate

[QUOTE="floridadad55;38551895"]

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

Just out of curiousity, I'm thinking of applying for a Master's at Dartmouth College. How is Dartmouth College regarded in the US compared witht he other Ivies and as an elite institution?

I mean I've always gathered that as an Ivy and one of the colonial colleges it's always enjoyed a high reputation for selectivity especially at the Undergraduate level and the medical school and business school are both world-class. But in the world rankings it's just inside the top 100 and whilst it is known worldwide as an Ivy I just wonder if it's seen as "the poor little relation of Harvard, Yale and Princeton" rather than an elite institution.

school in the UK in 2013 or 2014 and aiming for Oxford or Cambridge and hoping getting a place at an institution like Dartmouth would strengthen my credentials especially if I were to get a Dartmouth tutor to write my reference or as you Americans call it "letter of recommendation"?

Gridiron:

Dartmouth is extremely highly regarded in the US. I realize it doesn't rank that high on the "world" rankings, but that is because the criteria used in the world rankings tend to favor large institutions, such as the University of Michigan. Some of the very reasons why it may be ranked lower than expected in the world rankings are some of Dartmouth's biggest positives. By the way, the acceptance rate is just 12%, and assuming you are not an athlete or a minority, YOUR acceptance rate would therefore be lower than 12%.

HI ALL, I arrived late to this thread but i just wanted to know the bullets of what was concluded, if possible:

* Floridadad did your student end up in US or UK and do you regret decision?
* As we all know the importance Americans place on education I ask, "Would having Univ St Andrews on a resume- with high marks of course- be beneficial for someone aspiring into financial/banking/asset mgmt industry?"
* Can a St Andrews graduate argue for their prestige against US Ivy grads (arrogant though they are) or 'OxBridge' scholars?
* Lastly, are the professors world class which allows subpar/mediocre students to gain exemplary lecture thereby reflecting positively to international employers or fellow scholars?- so not just banking/etc (mostly to US but any other regions are fine)

Thanks to any comments on any bullets. Best wishes :biggrin:

Reply 79

floridadad55

[QUOTE="usavegasgraduate;38783417"]

Original post by floridadad55

USAVEGAS:

In answer to your first question, my son wound up accepting the offer from St Andrews. At first, I was somewhat ambivalent about his decision, because I did not know much about St Andrews (in America, we know Oxford, Cambridge, and perhaps LSE) and he did have some interesting offers in the US.

However, since he will be studying international relations, and since I have since learned that the IR program at St Andrews is considered pretty top notch
(for example, St Andrews is ranked #2 in the League Tables for Politics), I have greatly warmed up to his decision. Further, I like the smaller size of St Andrews, as compared to some of the behemoth sized universities in the US he might have attended. In short, St Andrews seems well suited for him.

Also, I think the fact that St Andrews will be having 600th year anniversary activities during his time there entered into his decision, at least to some extent.

In answer to your second question, I am still unclear as to the "resume value" of a St Andrews degree in the US employment marketplace. I have insufficient information to answer that question. I will let you know in four years. The man on the street may never have heard of St Andrews, but presumably, some people in positions of authority will have. (not many people in the US have heard of Middlebury College or Pomona College either, yet they are top schools)

In answer to your third question, if you read all the posts on this thread, you will see that some people, who appear to be quite knowledgeable, consider St Andrews to be akin to a Dartmouth or a Brown. Others, consider it perhaps a notch or two lower, more akin to a William & Mary, Boston College, or George Washington University. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle, which to me is more than sufficient.

In answer to your fourth question, I don't know to what extent "soft" criteria enters into the grading policy at St Andrews. I am of the belief that the cream usually rises to the top, and that true talent in the end will be recognized.

Also, I liked the idea that the admissions criteria at St Andrews seems to favor "hard" data, such as standardized test scores, rather than "soft" data, such as extracurricular activities, as in the US.