I just had a heated argument with some guy, and my frustration is what angered me to write this. He told me, for accepting gays and being cool with them, and treating them as I would anyone else I'm not a proper Christian - infact probably not one at all - because the Bible condemns them. He says we should all use Jesus as a model human.

I tell him about Lady Gaga born this way and he was adamant people aren't born gay, but they're brought up fooled.

I then ask how homosexuality can be a choice, when homophobic areas have higher suicide rates and by his logic surely they could just change back to being straight if it was a choice. He then says he wishes more homosexuals would commit suicide, and that homosexuals don't think they can turn straight.

So I tell him, Jesus tells us to love all.. so saying that is going against Christianity etc. Then he quotes Sodomy and Gamora.

He's obviously not just a closed minded pre-teen.. he knows his stuff. I just can't comprehend how people can believe it.

If any of you believe it's a choice.. help me out and tell me why please.

Edit: I'm just so angry right now.. sorry.. someone restore my faith in humanity

I just think of it as i don't choose to be attracted to men and not to women (i am a woman), i just am! The heart wants what it wants, i don't even understand why mine wants what it wants lol so how can i even begin to understand why others may 'choose' to be gay, even if it were a choice? And how can anyone who isn't gay be certain if it is or isn't a choice? And even if it were a choice people should just mind their own business grr i hate prejudices!!!

This guy is really annoying me too. I'm a muslim, and i know we've been having some impossibly bad press lately, but i just want you to know i sympathize! I don't like that attitude either... Tell this guy that he has no right to be so horrible to anyone, and shouldn't encourage anyone to be mean to someone else, that's always wrong. He should mind his own business, peoples sexuality is none of his business!! And (like my mum always says) it's God who'll decide who are the devout followers, not this guy... He's just a kid, what does he know??! Don't let anyone try and tell you if you're being a good christian or not, you'll know it yourself in your heart

Reply 43

Chiko 1001

14

Original post by binkey

It's explained here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation

It's just simple scientific research. There are all sorts of correlations over finger length, hair whirls (which way they go, left or right), some differences in brain activity ... and a whole lot more. Nobody can put their finger on what exact interactions take place between genes and/or biological components during foetal development, but with so many correlations showing a difference it's hard to refute.

It certainly isn't the swinging 60s, or Pop music, or liberal attitudes, or the media, or socialism, or something in the water (oestrogen), or .... whatever. Because it's been his way since mankind emerged. Homosexual behaviour is noted in 1500 species, and fully documented in 450. (link)

Even many religious leaders acknowledge this, but some still insist on labelling it a disease so they can promote a 'cure' in the form of 'reparative therapy'. Lord Carey even supports this. (link)

This is what one psychtherapist said;

Homosexual men are sent on weekends away with heterosexual men to "encourage their masculinity" and "in time to develop healthy relationships with women",

I'm quite masculine myself, so that won't work for me.
Praying won't work because I'm 99.999% sure there isn't a god and I'm a secular humanist.

and when you consider, what would be your response to this?

"If a black person goes to a GP and says I want skin bleaching treatment, that does not put the onus on the practitioner to deliver the demands of the patient. It puts the onus on the health care practitioner to behave responsibly."

I would be horrified if someone who was black wanted to lighten their skin just to reduce prejudice. Being non-white is completely normal. Would anyone in their right mind suggest they should get whiter? That's absurd.

These therapies have been shown to be potentially very dangerous, with some people committing suicide because they just could not change. There is no evidence it works at all. Take it from an expert.....

John Smid, director for Love In Action, a Exodus ex-gay Christian ministry, working in this field for 22 years said:

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2011/10/former-ex-gay-leader-smid-can-no-longer-condemn-gays/

"I also want to reiterate here that the transformation for the vast majority of homosexuals will not include a change of sexual orientation. Actually I’ve never met a man who experienced a change from homosexual to heterosexual."

Most ex-gay organisations have become increasingly marginalised because reputable psychological associations condemn their practice. They are now in financial trouble. Some have looked to places like Africa to go and peddle their wares, which is why US Evangelists and those involved in money-making from ex-gay treatment programmes have sought to set up in Kenya, Nigeria and Uganda. The programmes [in the US] cost tens of thousands of dollars and don't work, but it's a way to make money for them. Sometimes parents have forced their children to go to them, at a early age, 10 years old, with damaging consequences. One who went through this described how he was told he was evil, and that he already had AIDS because every homosexual was born with AIDS, but that the programme would be able to re-program him and cure this ! :eek:

He tells how he was forced to hold ice cubes in his hands for long periods, and how electrodes were used for shock treatment. What sort of person would be considered a fit parent when they allow this torture to take place.

Only the first paragraph of that was actually relevant to my question. I'm not here to say you're wrong, it just sounded like a far fetched theory to me and was interested as to where you'd heard it. Reading the wikipedia article hasn't exactly encouraged me all that much, and your first comment said "it's to do with antibody release in pregnancy" which is inaccurate- the article you linked said that that was one hypothesis but all they had was some data suggesting weak links that accounted for, at best, 1 in 7 individuals. So this "cause" you're proclaiming is a hypothesis which, if accurate, is projected to be implicated in less than 15% of homosexuals.

I'm not here to say it's a choice, just don't like inaccuracies being thrown around as fact.

Reply 44

binkey

Original post by Chiko 1001

Only the first paragraph of that was actually relevant to my question. I'm not here to say you're wrong, it just sounded like a far fetched theory to me and was interested as to where you'd heard it. Reading the wikipedia article hasn't exactly encouraged me all that much, and your first comment said "it's to do with antibody release in pregnancy" which is inaccurate-

I didn't say that ^^, that was another poster - I think you've got me confused with him because I replied to your post as well.

I provided the link for you, and general info for anyone who wanted more info.

You should generally stop reading at the bit where you don't care, don't want to know, or your attention-span is the limiting factor. I wasn't expecting you to have a particular interest in all of that - sometimes comments in posts are there to stir up general debate. :smile:

the article you linked said that that was one hypothesis but all they had was some data suggesting weak links that accounted for, at best, 1 in 7 individuals. So this "cause" you're proclaiming is a hypothesis which, if accurate, is projected to be implicated in less than 15% of homosexuals.

It's a big subject area, with lots of forks of research going on. As I said there is no one explanation, but all sorts of correlations, and those correlations point to a genetic/biological reason. Even most bishops acknowledge this, even the Pope has said that it's likely to be innate. The scientific evidence has been mounting for a long time now and each piece of research re-affirms a biological correlation.

I'm not here to say it's a choice, just don't like inaccuracies being thrown around as fact.

But it was you who said I said something which I didn't say :tongue:

I feel like throwing a Pot Kettle Black sticker in your direction. :tongue:

The guy who posted that comment was on the right track with antigens. One theory, for males, is that it's related to immunology.

As to the causes, that wiki article was about male sexual orientation and factors in the womb. Those factors involve testosterone and aren't thought to be a factor in female sexual orientation -- pretty obvious really. Further, the finger studies don't apply to lesbians. So they're finding correlations, but separate ones for different genders. It's not that surprising. Men almost never get breast cancer, whilst women do. Men get testicular cancer, women do not. There are all sorts of things which affect males and females to varying extents.

found this (link)

gallstones are three to four times more common in women than in men. .... Other conditions which plague women more often than men include irritable bowel syndrome and urinary tract infections. ..... Also more common in women than men are the autoimmune disorders (for example, multiple sclerosis, Sjogren's syndrome, and lupus). In these diseases, the immune system attacks the body's own tissue.

I posted only the wiki article to read first, but I could point to several dozen studies by reputable academic research projects which would go in to much more detail, but I thought you should start by looking at the wiki article as a first step.

I also gave the link to the book about animal same-sex behaviour - which gives you a clear clue that it's not confined to human behaviour. I could go on for pages and pages .... for example

We know that you can bred gay mice through modification of their genes
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/07/09/genetic-switch-makes-female-mice-try-to-mate-with-other-females/

We know that you turn fruit flies gay and straight with both drugs and genetic manipulation.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html

but I didn't want to go on an EPIC journey when a quick read of the wiki article might spur more interest and thought in you -- just enough to make you wonder.

There are lots of wiki articles to choose from, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation but that one is lengthy and you might have been put off.

ps. I had a little look at another wiki article, and I think you might find this one much better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
Hope this is useful. :smile:

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 45

Obadetona

14

Had an argument with my mum over this, so frustrating.

Reply 46

cl_steele

2

depends how you want to look at it .. one of my friends deemed homosexuality as the act of 'doing' another man in which case id say its definitely a choice...
if its just being attracted to someone of the same sex well you cant really help it i guess ... i dont know ask a gay person

Reply 47

Inverse

You're both wrong because your'e both irrational theists.

Reply 48

Kiss

2

Original post by Inverse

You're both wrong because your'e both irrational theists.

And you're wrong to bash someone for their religion when they are actually trying to make an effort to encorporate something their religion forbids into their system of beliefs :smile:

Surely you've got better things to do than whine on about theists all day.......

Reply 49

AngryCheeseCake

10

Original post by Gales

I really don't think it's environmental, otherwise you wouldn't get gay people in the Middle East and so on, would you?

Actually, there have been reports that there are many men in the middle east, in countries such as Saudi who have sex with other men, simple because it is easier and more available than a woman, because unmarried men and women cannot be alone together.

How wide spread that is I don't know, in this case it isn't because they are gay, but because you can't have a relationship with someone of the opposite gender unmarried.

Reply 50

Gales

14

Original post by AngryCheeseCake

Actually, there have been reports that there are many men in the middle east, in countries such as Saudi who have sex with other men, simple because it is easier and more available than a woman, because unmarried men and women cannot be alone together.

How wide spread that is I don't know, in this case it isn't because they are gay, but because you can't have a relationship with someone of the opposite gender unmarried.

Yeah I know, one of Gaddafi's sons was caught with gay porn too, even though his father persecuted gays. There's stories of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon becoming rent boys in order to get money too, obviously not because they're gay, it's out of desperation. I think I read a story about a Saudi prince and homosexuality, too.

Reply 51

AngryCheeseCake

10

Original post by Gales

Yeah I know, one of Gaddafi's sons was caught with gay porn too, even though his father persecuted gays. There's stories of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon becoming rent boys in order to get money too, obviously not because they're gay, it's out of desperation. I think I read a story about a Saudi prince and homosexuality, too.

Yes the Saudi prince who killed his servant in the hotel in London. The reason why he couldnt return to Saudi was because he would hae faced the death penalty, for being gay, not for killing another human being.

Reply 52

fellowjoe

8

Original post by Miracle Day

I just had a heated argument with some guy, and my frustration is what angered me to write this. He told me, for accepting gays and being cool with them, and treating them as I would anyone else I'm not a proper Christian - infact probably not one at all - because the Bible condemns them. He says we should all use Jesus as a model human.

I tell him about Lady Gaga born this way and he was adamant people aren't born gay, but they're brought up fooled.

I then ask how homosexuality can be a choice, when homophobic areas have higher suicide rates and by his logic surely they could just change back to being straight if it was a choice. He then says he wishes more homosexuals would commit suicide, and that homosexuals don't think they can turn straight.

So I tell him, Jesus tells us to love all.. so saying that is going against Christianity etc. Then he quotes Sodomy and Gamora.

He's obviously not just a closed minded pre-teen.. he knows his stuff. I just can't comprehend how people can believe it.

If any of you believe it's a choice.. help me out and tell me why please.

Edit: I'm just so angry right now.. sorry.. someone restore my faith in humanity

Homosexuality is both an innate and a by-choice thing.

Some straight people turn homo because of their bad experiences or influences of other sorts, be it friends, media and whatnot.

At least this comes from my friends' personal experiences.

Reply 53

Gales

14

Original post by AngryCheeseCake

Yes the Saudi prince who killed his servant in the hotel in London. The reason why he couldnt return to Saudi was because he would hae faced the death penalty, for being gay, not for killing another human being.

I've heard that in Saudi Arabia there is quite an active underground gay community, so it's not too surprising. It just shows in my opinion, that environment can't play a huge part in who turns out gay or not. :smile:

Reply 54

Humberto

Original post by Gales

I've heard that in Saudi Arabia there is quite an active underground gay community, so it's not too surprising. It just shows in my opinion, that environment can't play a huge part in who turns out gay or not. :smile:

Maybe we can look on this a bit differently. Suppose instead that sexuality is fluid; that people's sexual desire (whether they want to have sex or not, how, etc.) is disconnected from people's sexual objects (whether it's with a man, woman, intersexual, transsexual, animal, insect, plant, child, whatever). In this framework there are no people who are "essentially" gay or "essentially" heterosexual. Now, it would be cultural or "environmental" if someone would say "I"m 100% heterosexual" or "I'm 100% gay".

This is a reason that contemporary emancipatory academics don't really speak of "gays", but rather coined the term MSM (Men having Sex with Men). Perhaps you cannot be either gay or heterosexual, but just act heterosexually or homosexually (by limiting your sexual experience to one partly cultural category: men or women). In that sense it plays a huge part in who "turns out gay or not", not because they determine what people want to do or actually do, but because culture can enable or force people to think of themselves in a certain way. If I, qua man, want to have sex with another man, I might say "wait, that means I'm homosexual", while in ancient Greece I might have said "alright then, let's have some fun", without committing myself to an identity category. I'd not be homo- or heterosexual, I'd just be human.

Reply 55

Gales

14

Original post by Humberto

Maybe we can look on this a bit differently. Suppose instead that sexuality is fluid; that people's sexual desire (whether they want to have sex or not, how, etc.) is disconnected from people's sexual objects (whether it's with a man, woman, intersexual, transsexual, animal, insect, plant, child, whatever). In this framework there are no people who are "essentially" gay or "essentially" heterosexual. Now, it would be cultural or "environmental" if someone would say "I"m 100% heterosexual" or "I'm 100% gay".

This is a reason that contemporary emancipatory academics don't really speak of "gays", but rather coined the term MSM (Men having Sex with Men). Perhaps you cannot be either gay or heterosexual, but just act heterosexually or homosexually (by limiting your sexual experience to one partly cultural category: men or women). In that sense it plays a huge part in who "turns out gay or not", not because they determine what people want to do or actually do, but because culture can enable or force people to think of themselves in a certain way. If I, qua man, want to have sex with another man, I might say "wait, that means I'm homosexual", while in ancient Greece I might have said "alright then, let's have some fun", without committing myself to an identity category. I'd not be homo- or heterosexual, I'd just be human.

+1 rep (when I can, I'm out now)
From that perspective, environment can influence how you classify yourself.

Reply 56

Faland

11

Original post by Miracle Day

I just had a heated argument with some guy, and my frustration is what angered me to write this. He told me, for accepting gays and being cool with them, and treating them as I would anyone else I'm not a proper Christian - infact probably not one at all - because the Bible condemns them. He says we should all use Jesus as a model human.

I tell him about Lady Gaga born this way and he was adamant people aren't born gay, but they're brought up fooled.

I then ask how homosexuality can be a choice, when homophobic areas have higher suicide rates and by his logic surely they could just change back to being straight if it was a choice. He then says he wishes more homosexuals would commit suicide, and that homosexuals don't think they can turn straight.

So I tell him, Jesus tells us to love all.. so saying that is going against Christianity etc. Then he quotes Sodomy and Gamora.

He's obviously not just a closed minded pre-teen.. he knows his stuff. I just can't comprehend how people can believe it.

If any of you believe it's a choice.. help me out and tell me why please.

Edit: I'm just so angry right now.. sorry.. someone restore my faith in humanity

1. You can't choose who you're attracted to,
2. But you can choose whether or not you act on it.

Being attracted to the same-sex doesn't mean you have to have homosexual relationships - that's a choice.

Just because it's a choice doesn't make it bad or good.

Reply 57

Cool Kid

3

Original post by Miracle Day

I just had a heated argument with some guy, and my frustration is what angered me to write this. He told me, for accepting gays and being cool with them, and treating them as I would anyone else I'm not a proper Christian - infact probably not one at all - because the Bible condemns them. He says we should all use Jesus as a model human.

I tell him about Lady Gaga born this way and he was adamant people aren't born gay, but they're brought up fooled.

I then ask how homosexuality can be a choice, when homophobic areas have higher suicide rates and by his logic surely they could just change back to being straight if it was a choice. He then says he wishes more homosexuals would commit suicide, and that homosexuals don't think they can turn straight.

So I tell him, Jesus tells us to love all.. so saying that is going against Christianity etc. Then he quotes Sodomy and Gamora.

He's obviously not just a closed minded pre-teen.. he knows his stuff. I just can't comprehend how people can believe it.

If any of you believe it's a choice.. help me out and tell me why please.

Edit: I'm just so angry right now.. sorry.. someone restore my faith in humanity

For some it is a choice, for others it is not. For example it is easier to be gay then straight if you have little confidence as you do not have that gender barrier with your own sex. A lot of teen gays are like this - easier to be gay and get a guy then to be straight and approach the 'mysterious creatures' that are women.

Reply 58

DYKWIA

13

Original post by Gales

Well, obviously, in the Middle East homosexuality is hugely frowned upon and so taboo that it doesn't exist in mainstream culture at all. So if it was environmental, would there not be any gay people in the Middle East?

It may not be a conscious choice, but I'm pretty sure it's at least partially environmental, or else why are there more gay people in the USA than in the middle-east?

Reply 59

catoswyn

15

Original post by Miracle Day

I just had a heated argument with some guy, and my frustration is what angered me to write this. He told me, for accepting gays and being cool with them, and treating them as I would anyone else I'm not a proper Christian - infact probably not one at all - because the Bible condemns them. He says we should all use Jesus as a model human.

I tell him about Lady Gaga born this way and he was adamant people aren't born gay, but they're brought up fooled.

I then ask how homosexuality can be a choice, when homophobic areas have higher suicide rates and by his logic surely they could just change back to being straight if it was a choice. He then says he wishes more homosexuals would commit suicide, and that homosexuals don't think they can turn straight.

So I tell him, Jesus tells us to love all.. so saying that is going against Christianity etc. Then he quotes Sodomy and Gamora.

He's obviously not just a closed minded pre-teen.. he knows his stuff. I just can't comprehend how people can believe it.

If any of you believe it's a choice.. help me out and tell me why please.

Edit: I'm just so angry right now.. sorry.. someone restore my faith in humanity

Three things:

This person sounds vile. I am not a Christian although I was originally brought up as one. I abhor the bigotry and hatred shown by the person who spoke to you.

If a Christian person did believe that homosexuality is not only a choice but a sin the religion would say that there is no excuse for condemning the 'sinner'. That is not the christian standpoint at all (they ask people to condemn the sin NOT the sinner). So this person displayed not only a shocking bigotry but also a complete lack of understanding of the christian position on these issues. How dare he use Jesus as an example of someone he is emulating! It reveals both his own arrogance and is insulting to Jesus to suggest he would have been as bigoted and ignorant as this. I think it is him who should be questioning his own position as a Christian rather than suggesting others need to question theirs!

Thirdly the question of the 'origin' of homosexual behaviour is a controversial one because of the history of how theories about these origins have been used against individuals in the past. Many gay people are wary of tying homosexuality too closely to a biological interpretation (which some people might use in terms of 'born as gay') because this can lead to ideas such as medicalisation and the idea of use of drugs, surgery, gene therapy and the like to try to change the biology and alter behaviour. If however one insists homosexuality is 'caused' by environmental factors then a whole other group of people leap in and start talking about therapy and correction!!! :smile:

(edited 12 years ago)

How can people think homosexuality is a choice?

Latest

Trending

Trending

Articles for you