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How can people think homosexuality is a choice?

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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Gay attitudes have increasingly since the 60's been turning against me and look, as homosexualty has become more accepted rates of marriage have fallen and out of wedlock births have increased. Gays are the cause.
    Err... no. This table takes marriage rates back to the mid nineteenth century. Marriage rates spike suddenly around both world wars, but as I'm sure you'll note the graph describes an overall trend towards increasing marriage rates.

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    (This is Scottish Data because that's what I work with at uni. I haven't noticed any significant difference between the trends of my own country and the trends of the western world in general over this period)

    How does this gel with your theory?

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    Over the same period we see a rise in divorces - which is essentially the advances in womens rights - however as homosexuality becomes more socially acceptable we see a drop in the divorce rate. Now, correspondance =/= causation but it does tend to blow any idea that homosexuals are undermining marriage right out of the water.
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    (Original post by ThePhilosoraptor)
    Err... no. This table takes marriage rates back to the mid nineteenth century. Marriage rates spike suddenly around both world wars, but as I'm sure you'll note the graph describes an overall trend towards increasing marriage rates.

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    (This is Scottish Data because that's what I work with at uni. I haven't noticed any significant difference between the trends of my own country and the trends of the western world in general over this period)

    How does this gel with your theory?

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    Over the same period we see a rise in divorces - which is essentially the advances in womens rights - however as homosexuality becomes more socially acceptable we see a drop in the divorce rate. Now, correspondance =/= causation but it does tend to blow any idea that homosexuals are undermining marriage right out of the water.
    But they haven't got gay marriage yet, so actually the effects may not be seen for generations.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    I have a friend who used to be a homosexual. His family and me were very supportive of his therapy and he now doesn't give in to homosexual urges and he likes women. Heck, he's even opposed to gay marriage.



    It would make me happier and it would be better for society if you didn't get involved with people of the same sex.
    Facepalm... All I can say is that I don't know the person, or even that he exists (you could be lying...) and so I cannot comment. Where did he get 'therapy'?? Oh wait, you're the american guy... figures.
    Your happiness is irrelevant to me. How would it make society better? I've had lesbian sex before at a party... how on earth does that make any difference whatsoever to society?
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    (Original post by ThePhilosoraptor)
    That does depend on how one measures the value of a relationship, surely?

    If the only value of a relationship is the number of offspring it produces then homosexuals will struggle to compete.

    If, however, you hail from the 21st century and think that a relationship has value because it is an economic partnership, a social moulding, a support structure, a way of sharing happiness, a coming together of souls and a celebration of love and selflessness then it's pretty difficult to find a good reason why homosexual relationships are inferior.

    Out of interest, are you familiar with Roy Zimmerman?

    Warning; the video in the spoiler contains mild language and innuendo that some people may find offensive. Also contains logic and reasoned arguments that may be offensive to creationists.

    Spoiler:
    Show


    Yes, homosexuals will struggle to match reproduction rates among heterosexuals, though with IVF, sperm donors and surrogate mothers it is increasingly possible for gay couples to have children of their own but I admit I was referring more to the 21st century opinion, and I agree with you - there is no argument for homosexual inferiority.

    I haven't heard of him before, but I will check it out (though maybe not now, everyone's asleep and I can't find my headphones!). Also, love the second half of your warning!

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Because now people have seen that with the legalization of gay marriage in certain places that marriage has been devalued and now they don't respect it as much.
    That is rubbish. It is the increasing disregard for the importance of marriage which has devalued it, not gay marriage; marriage was being devalued way before gay marriage was even legal. I'd say it is the ease with which you can obtain divorces now, the haste with which people rush into marriage and the hordes of celebrities who marry, divorce and remarry like it's going out of fashion who harm marriage; if anything gay marriage would be an affirmation of marriage, as I imagine that, having fought for it for so long, any gay person would work hard to make their marriage work.

    Freedom, democracy, free speech - things gay people like to suppress if it goes against their beliefs. People have said that if I chose to raise a kid to be straight, which i'd like to do, then that would be classified as child abuse. I should have the right to decide how a kid is raised.
    Equality and equal rights: things homophobes like to suppress among the gay community, in the same way racists and bigots did for black people. I wouldn't go so far as to call it child abuse, my mother works for a children's charity so I am hesitant to bandy the term around, but I would certainly say that
    a) it is not possible to bring a child up straight, as if they are are straight or gay, there is nothing you can do to change or influence that
    b) imposing your views of heterosexual superiority on your child could leave them with great psychological damage if they think that they might be gay, which could lead to a whole host of problems
    c) bring them up with an incredibly narrow-minded view of the world if you bring them up with your heterosexual superiority, which could damage their abilities to form relationships with other people and would ensure your bigotry passes on to future generations


    Why can't you just keep your homosexual urges to yourself then? If you are bi then you can just choose which sex you wanna like. Simple.
    I am not bi, but even I know bisexuality does not work like that. It is not pick and choose; you are attracted to women, I am attracted to women, bisexuals are attracted to both, that is not something which can change. This view of bisexuals as indecisive or greedy is horribly ignorant.

    This is a thread on homosexuality. Of course I am gonna talk about homosexuality on here.
    It is possible to talk about homosexuality without being homophobic, but you do not manage this. Of course homosexuality is going to be discussed on her, but you do not need to do it in a homophobic manner.

    But that's not what I mean. Gay people can't have kids naturally, they are not the normal either and I believe that kids who are influenced by gay society could be damaged.
    It is possible for a lesbian to give birth to her own child with sperm donors and for a gay man to father a child with a surrogate mother. Yes, the child will not biologically be both parents, but that is neither here nor there.

    Who is not normal, the kids or the parents? If you are referring to gay parents as being not normal, then you are contradicting your many previous assurances that you do not have a problem with homosexuality.

    The only way a child will be influence by gay society is influenced into having a more tolerant attitude towards minorities. It is not possible to influence people into homosexuality, we do not recruit (although sometimes I wish we did because there are some people I would love to recruit to the gay side )

    But they don't see the need to marry any more, because they see that the gays have devalued marriage.
    That is a ridiculous point.


    Gays will not teach their kids to be gay
    Hurrah, finally some reason, though I imagine this is probably a typo, but it is the first correct thing you have said on this thread!

    or support their kid if he/she doesn't wanna be gay. Also, what about their dangerous lifestyle habits? They get HIV at far higher rates than heteros and so they have a negative aspect to how they choose to live their life
    Yes, gay parents would support their child if they were straight, because gay people understand the importance of a parent's support about your sexuality. And once and for all, HIV IS NOT A GAY DISEASE!!! HIV spreads through unsafe sex, so good sex education will combat the spread among gay AND straight communities.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    But they haven't got gay marriage yet, so actually the effects may not be seen for generations.
    Whilst that is true, it is irrelevant; the claim made was that homosexuals are somehow devaluing marriage and are thus responsible for falling marriage rates. Since historical data shows this to be fallacious it is perhaps time to revise the theory?
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    (Original post by ThePhilosoraptor)
    (Those pesky time-travelling homosexuals!)
    Damn, you discovered our secret!! That's how we manage to recruit so many people into homosexuality, we have time travel

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Gay attitudes have increasingly since the 60's been turning against me and look, as homosexualty has become more accepted rates of marriage have fallen and out of wedlock births have increased. Gays are the cause.
    I can see how, as a bigot, you would link increasing support for the gay community with a fall in marriage, even if in reality, gays and gay marriage have nothing to do with it, but there is literally nothing that would link increased support for the gay community and increasing numbers of children born out of wedlock. It is a stupid attempt at an argument.
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    (Original post by XxelliexX)
    Facepalm... All I can say is that I don't know the person, or even that he exists (you could be lying...) and so I cannot comment. Where did he get 'therapy'?? Oh wait, you're the american guy... figures.
    Your happiness is irrelevant to me. How would it make society better? I've had lesbian sex before at a party... how on earth does that make any difference whatsoever to society?
    It makes all the parties I've been to seem like failures by comparison.

    #SIGH!#
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    (Original post by XxelliexX)
    Facepalm... All I can say is that I don't know the person, or even that he exists (you could be lying...) and so I cannot comment. Where did he get 'therapy'?? Oh wait, you're the american guy... figures.
    The amount of times he has brought up this friend who magically renounced his gayness is staggering, and I believe him less and less every time.
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    (Original post by ThePhilosoraptor)
    It makes all the parties I've been to seem like failures by comparison.

    #SIGH!#
    Haha! If I had my way it would've happened a lot more than once!
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    (Original post by XxelliexX)
    Facepalm... All I can say is that I don't know the person, or even that he exists (you could be lying...) and so I cannot comment. Where did he get 'therapy'?? Oh wait, you're the american guy... figures.
    I like him a lot more now he is not gay. http://narth.com/ Here you can email them and ask them about gay therapy, if you are interested. It is a good idea.

    Your happiness is irrelevant to me. How would it make society better? I've had lesbian sex before at a party... how on earth does that make any difference whatsoever to society?
    Because you teach bad values and influence children in the wrong way.

    (Original post by Jester94)
    Equality and equal rights: things homophobes like to suppress among the gay community, in the same way racists and bigots did for black people. I wouldn't go so far as to call it child abuse, my mother works for a children's charity so I am hesitant to bandy the term around, but I would certainly say that
    a) it is not possible to bring a child up straight, as if they are are straight or gay, there is nothing you can do to change or influence that
    b) imposing your views of heterosexual superiority on your child could leave them with great psychological damage if they think that they might be gay, which could lead to a whole host of problems
    c) bring them up with an incredibly narrow-minded view of the world if you bring them up with your heterosexual superiority, which could damage their abilities to form relationships with other people and would ensure your bigotry passes on to future generations
    I believe differently to you. I think that instilling good values on a kid will reduce the chances of it turning out homosexual and it is better for everyone. Also, it means you are forcing your pro-gay views on kids who don't wanna be exposed to it.

    I am not bi, but even I know bisexuality does not work like that. It is not pick and choose; you are attracted to women, I am attracted to women, bisexuals are attracted to both, that is not something which can change. This view of bisexuals as indecisive or greedy is horribly ignorant.
    You can ignore the homosexual feelings.

    It is possible to talk about homosexuality without being homophobic, but you do not manage this. Of course homosexuality is going to be discussed on her, but you do not need to do it in a homophobic manner.
    As soon as I state I am against gay marriage I get labeled a homophobe.

    Who is not normal, the kids or the parents? If you are referring to gay parents as being not normal, then you are contradicting your many previous assurances that you do not have a problem with homosexuality.
    Neither are normal. It doesn't mean it is wrong, but it does mean it should not be encouraged.

    The only way a child will be influence by gay society is influenced into having a more tolerant attitude towards minorities. It is not possible to influence people into homosexuality, we do not recruit (although sometimes I wish we did because there are some people I would love to recruit to the gay side )
    Eww. See, you wanna recruit. Disgusting.


    Hurrah, finally some reason, though I imagine this is probably a typo, but it is the first correct thing you have said on this thread!
    Yeah, I didn't mean that. How could it possibly be true anyway?! lool

    Yes, gay parents would support their child if they were straight, because gay people understand the importance of a parent's support about your sexuality. And once and for all, HIV IS NOT A GAY DISEASE!!! HIV spreads through unsafe sex, so good sex education will combat the spread among gay AND straight communities.
    When so many gays get it in comparison to others it signals something is up with the gay community.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    I like him a lot more now he is not gay. http://narth.com/ Here you can email them and ask them about gay therapy, if you are interested. It is a good idea.
    That's nice...
    homophobe.
    Yeah, I think I'll pass.

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Because you teach bad values and influence children in the wrong way.
    How so? There were no children at the party, and no children in the bedroom with us... And how is it 'in the wrong way'? What 'bad values'? Y U NO EXPLAIN YOUR POINTS?
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    (Original post by XxelliexX)
    That's nice...
    homophobe.
    Yeah, I think I'll pass.
    If you are willing to try, they can help you become straight and not give in to homosexual tendencies.

    How so? There were no children at the party, and no children in the bedroom with us... And how is it 'in the wrong way'? What 'bad values'? Y U NO EXPLAIN YOUR POINTS?
    Wrong way - it will make kids be more likely to be gay, or maybe metro.

    bad values - militant homosexual values.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    I like him a lot more now he is not gay. http://narth.com/ Here you can email them and ask them about gay therapy, if you are interested. It is a good idea.
    That is a disgusting attitude to hold, to like someone more simply because they are straight. What do you do when one of your favourite musicians or actors comes out as gay - stop watching/listening to anything they are involved in.

    No, conversion camps are not a good thing; people are generally forced onto them, and if not they are at least pressured, while they give the message that being gay is wrong, which it isn't.

    Because you teach bad values and influence children in the wrong way.
    Values gay parents will teach to their children: openmindedness, tolerance, fairness, justice, ability to not seem someone based purely on their sexuality etc. Explain it to me, because I don't see, how are any of thise bad things?


    I believe differently to you. I think that instilling good values on a kid will reduce the chances of it turning out homosexual and it is better for everyone. Also, it means you are forcing your pro-gay views on kids who don't wanna be exposed to it.
    You cannot teach a child to be straight, and teaching a child about heterosexual superiority is not a way of instilling good values; it teaches intolerance, hatred and bigotry, which should not be encouraged at all. By pro-gay views, do you mean tolerance and acceptance, because yes, gay parents will certainly teach their children those, but is it not possible to teach someone to be gay, so stop pretending it is.

    You can ignore the homosexual feelings.
    Do you ignore feelings when you are sexually attracted to someone? No, you don't, you accept that is part of yourself. Therefore, you cannot expect bisexuals to repress one part of themselves, as it is not healthy and can lead to serious psychological problems.

    As soon as I state I am against gay marriage I get labeled a homophobe.
    Because you have a homophobic opinion, you are a homophobe. Stop whingeing, if you don't want to be labelled as a homophobe, don't act like one.


    Neither are normal. It doesn't mean it is wrong, but it does mean it should not be encouraged.
    Who are you to classify what is normal or not. Just because something is done by the majority, does not make it normal. Also, I love how your discrimination has spread, from parents to children; what would you do if you fell in love with a girl but it turned out her parents were gay? It is unfair to discriminate against a child because of their parents' sexuality, just as unfair as it is to discriminate against the parents themselves.


    Eww. See, you wanna recruit. Disgusting.

    Jesus, take a joke.

    When so many gays get it in comparison to others it signals something is up with the gay community.
    Since all you ever do is quote examples from the US, I will give you some UK stats: in 2010, the majority of new HIV diagnoses were acquired by heterosexuals (or by bi people having heterosexual sex), so actually, more straight people are getting it here. :/ rather challenges your argument doesn't it.
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    (Original post by XxelliexX)
    How so? There were no children at the party, and no children in the bedroom with us... And how is it 'in the wrong way'? What 'bad values'? Y U NO EXPLAIN YOUR POINTS?
    Your parties sound better than mine

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    If you are willing to try, they can help you become straight and not give in to homosexual tendencies.

    Wrong way - it will make kids be more likely to be gay, or maybe metro.

    bad values - militant homosexual values.
    You spout such crap it is unbelievable. It is not possibly to become straight, because you are born with your sexuality, no amount of crazy conversion camp preachers or supportive friends like you will change that.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    If you are willing to try, they can help you become straight and not give in to homosexual tendencies.
    1) It's in America
    2) It costs $170 per session
    3) I'm not willing to try, my sexuality is part of me and I can't reject a part of me like that

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Wrong way - it will make kids be more likely to be gay, or maybe metro.

    bad values - militant homosexual values.
    And why is it bad if children become gay?
    This conversation is going nowhere.
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    (Original post by Jester94)
    speaking sense
    honestly i would just give up with him, he is an idiot plain and simple. he cannot think rationally about this and has already admitted it... not even gonna try and hide my contempt for how ignorant and stupid he is (on this topic anyway) anymore. nothing will convince him because he has no reason for his homophobia and he can't explain it, nor can he properly back up any of his arguments or supply non biased evidence to back himself up... it's all just his own opinion.. which he treats as fact.
    he's just convinced himself that his arguments are valid, logical and factual so he can pretend to himself that he's not homophobic... hopeless cause.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Because now people have seen that with the legalization of gay marriage in certain places that marriage has been devalued and now they don't respect it as much.



    Freedom, democracy, free speech - things gay people like to suppress if it goes against their beliefs. People have said that if I chose to raise a kid to be straight, which i'd like to do, then that would be classified as child abuse. I should have the right to decide how a kid is raised.



    Why can't you just keep your homosexual urges to yourself then? If you are bi then you can just choose which sex you wanna like. Simple.



    This is a thread on homosexuality. Of course I am gonna talk about homosexuality on here.



    But that's not what I mean. Gay people can't have kids naturally, they are not the normal either and I believe that kids who are influenced by gay society could be damaged.



    But they don't see the need to marry any more, because they see that the gays have devalued marriage.



    Gays will not teach their kids to be gay, or support their kid if he/she doesn't wanna be gay. Also, what about their dangerous lifestyle habits? They get HIV at far higher rates than heteros and so they have a negative aspect to how they choose to live their life.
    keep on bull****ting my dear, the only one you're convincing is yourself.


    i also hope to god you don't have a gay child... just a warning, your attitude on "raising a child straight" could lead to suicide.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    We have the best economy in the world and IMO the USA is the best country in the world too.
    Best economy what standards? :confused:

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    It has got to where it has because of loose restrictions and by letting the free market work, except where intervention is necessary.
    You have no way to even come close to proving that.

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    If that safety net is the equivalent of $10,000 per year, that means that people would be better off not working than working. We should make life hard for lazy people who don't want to work, so they find out that getting a job is preferable.
    You can incentive people to work without depriving them of financial means. :confused:


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Nice. I believe in education too. But equally, we have a duty to help other countries that are being oppressed, especially if it is partially our fault.
    What countries have we ever gone into to 'free from oppression'. The US only gets involved in wars where oil is at stake.

    The largest and most funded lobbying group in the US? It's for oil companies.

    If we went to war to 'free countries from oppression' why haven't we gone into Africa? Ever? South America? The Caribbean? Hmmm? Maybe because they don't have oil and we don't stand to gain anything :confused:

    Take some politics classes.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    High taxation ALWAYS harms the middle income earners the most.
    How can high taxation of the rich affect the middle income earners? If you're not taxing the middle income, how does it hurt the middle income? :confused:


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    But if you tax the rich too heavily they will have less incentive to reinvest money back into US business. Remember that a lot of rich people don't have a salary. They are taxed in other ways, mainly involving when they transfer money in one way or another. THey will simply avoid transfering wealth through the USA. We will miss out.
    (1) The rich aren't as productive with their money as you like to think

    (2) Most very wealthy people avoid being taxed by keeping their money outside the US, claiming exemptions and so on and so forth. The rich are supposed to pay something around 35% of income tax per year. I guarantee that the majority doesn't.

    (3) If the tax money is used to give to those who need it (who can then put it back into the economy by paying rent, buying food, so on and so forth) and by constructing and maintaining public goods (like bridges, trains, so on and so forth) the money is constantly being moved around and everyone profits more.

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    I don't understand?
    You tried to make your metaethics your normative ethics and vice versa.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    No, I have my beliefs on the harms of homosexuality, but they are truthful and plausible, not homophobic hatred.
    The mere fact that you think homosexuality is harmful makes you homophobic.

    There's absolutely no evidence to support your views.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    They are in all but the name. I don't see why you can't be happy that I'd be sorta accepting of civil unions.
    Because then that's inherently unequal.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    It's like the black panther movement. Maybe the 'pink panther' movement. I do think that gay people want to destroy the conservative side in revenge for the past.
    Still and ignorant statement. Show me research that says that homosexuals beat up people because they're heterophobic. :confused:

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    But they have different population mechanics. They are experiencing out of control population growth and until they develop and their population stabilizes and until they are freer countries then they are not my concern.
    Rights aren't dependent on the size of the population of a country. What an absolutely absurd thing to say.

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Heterophobic attacks are becoming more common. This is not an ignorant statement to make.
    Still and ignorant statement. Show me research that says that homosexuals beat up people because they're heterophobic. :confused:

    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Wonderful - how condescending. I take many CS classes at CMU, which is a neighboring college - perhaps they offer ethics.
    CMU isn't a good philosophy department. UPitt is #5 in the country overall and #6 in the world; but for ethics it's quite different.

    In ethics, group 1 is NYU, Harvard, Michigan, UNC, Yale
    Groups 2 is Oxford, Princeton, Rutgers, University of Arizona, UCLA and University of Toronto

    Group 3 is Brown, Duke, Gtown, Stanford, UCB, UCSD, UChicago, University of Colorado, Boulder, UPitt, University of Reading and USC.

    There are significant differences between each group in terms of the talent of the faculty.
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    If you are willing to try, they can help you become straight and not give in to homosexual tendencies.
    No they can't. Psychologist have long since said you cannot change your sexuality; contrary to what you seem to think.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Wrong way - it will make kids be more likely to be gay, or maybe metro.
    Metro isn't a sexuality :confused:

    And no, it doesn't necessitate that more kids will be gay.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    bad values - militant homosexual values.
    It doesn't lead to bad values. That's your arbitrary opinion. And in fact, values cannot be 'bad'. But we don't get into discussions on metaphysics.

    And no, contrary to your beliefs, homosexuals aren't really militant :confused: I have yet to turn on the news to see "Militant homosexuals kill group of heterosexuals!"
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    I have a friend who used to be a homosexual. His family and me were very supportive of his therapy and he now doesn't give in to homosexual urges and he likes women. Heck, he's even opposed to gay marriage.
    We've been over this. Your anecdotal evidence isn't going to further your point.

    You have no way to tell he's not lying.

    And, of course, psychologists have long since said you cannot change your sexuality with any type of therapy.


    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    It would make me happier and it would be better for society if you didn't get involved with people of the same sex.
    You have absolutely no reasonable grounds on which you can claim that it would be better for society.

    Not only that, homosexual's actions and relationships don't, in any way, share any causal relationship with you :confused:
Updated: February 26, 2012
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