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America The Land of The Free

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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    He has a knife, you get a revolver, he gets a semi-automatic pistol or an uzi of some kind. You get a gun because you're too lazy to learn how to defend yourself in other ways. Killing or seriously and probably permanently harming someone is not the solution.
    The most naive thing I've read regarding a gun control debate yet. You're implying that if someone pulls a knife on me, and I defend myself, that they're going to magically pull an semi-automatic weapon from their other pocket. Really? Just how many awful TV dramas have you watched? And how often do you think people get themselves into situations that require such a level of force? I've, thankfully, never had to use my weapon. But it's there in the one in a million chance that someone tries to harm me or my family or my loved ones. You can go ahead and let a criminal kill your loved ones if you please, but I will not stand idly by.

    In regards to "learning how to defend yourself in some other way", what exactly do you propose a regular individual learn to do when faced with a life-threatening situation that involves a gun on the criminal's part? Also, not that it's relevant, but I have extensive martial arts training, so I AM aware how to defend myself in other ways. I can "kill or seriously hurt someone" with my hands - so should hands be more closely regulated as well? Everybody has hands - you don't even have to go out and buy those!
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    (Original post by DYKWIA)
    Also, if criminals can't use guns, then they'd just switch to knives.
    Laughable. Criminals will use whatever they want, because they're CRIMINALS. Drugs are illegal and that doesn't stop people from obtaining and selling them.
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    (Original post by Just Like You)
    Laughable. Criminals will use whatever they want, because they're CRIMINALS. Drugs are illegal and that doesn't stop people from obtaining and selling them.
    That's what I'm saying. I don't think the current situation is necessarily a good one, but making guns illegal would only mean that law abiding citizens would lose protection. With Mexico, it'd be hard to regulate how guns entered the us. Then there is the issue that gun crime would be replaced with knife crime.
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    (Original post by Tara Gonzalez)
    It is the land of the free, paid for in the blood of our patriots.It is a democracy where people are allowed to fail if that is their fate, or succeed if that is their fortune, But that does not mean we are our brothers keeper. The european health care is a failure. You should get educated, and get a job or start a business. Freedom is not free, we paid for it.
    are you being serious?

    European health care is on of the most important thing in a free society. as EVERYONE is entitled to it you don't have to fish out £2000 to fix your broken leg. Also the doctors in a European health care system can actually treat patient without fear of being sued. (which happens a lot in the States)
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    (Original post by barratt15)
    Well I'm not an American, and you make some valid points. Certainly much more reasonable than some of the other anti-American hatred that this thread has produced!
    Well, there's plenty to disparage about the US, but civil liberties generally isn't one of them. My biggest problem is US foreign policy, and there are a few undemocratic tendencies within the US, though more out of politicians than structure.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Well, there's plenty to disparage about the US, but civil liberties generally isn't one of them. My biggest problem is US foreign policy, and there are a few undemocratic tendencies, though more out of politicians than structure.
    I like you
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    (Original post by Just Like You)
    The most naive thing I've read regarding a gun control debate yet. You're implying that if someone pulls a knife on me, and I defend myself, that they're going to magically pull an semi-automatic weapon from their other pocket. Really? Just how many awful TV dramas have you watched? And how often do you think people get themselves into situations that require such a level of force? I've, thankfully, never had to use my weapon. But it's there in the one in a million chance that someone tries to harm me or my family or my loved ones. You can go ahead and let a criminal kill your loved ones if you please, but I will not stand idly by.

    In regards to "learning how to defend yourself in some other way", what exactly do you propose a regular individual learn to do when faced with a life-threatening situation that involves a gun on the criminal's part? Also, not that it's relevant, but I have extensive martial arts training, so I AM aware how to defend myself in other ways. I can "kill or seriously hurt someone" with my hands - so should hands be more closely regulated as well? Everybody has hands - you don't even have to go out and buy those!
    *facepalm* Yeah, because I meant automatically(!) How dumb do you think I am? Rarely hence the lack of necessity. America is more violent than the UK though... or there's a hell of a lot of media sensationalism.

    You obviously don't understand martial arts that well if you're making that statement. You should know in that situation it's about self discipline and using the minimum required force to defend yourself. What kind of dojo do you go to? The fact you're a martial artist and carry a gun disgusts me. Technically speaking to train properly it'd probably be more expensive. And to reply to being held at gun point that depends on circumstances but that's pretty much as dangerous with or without a gun; if their gun's already drawn and you go to draw yours then bang, you're dead.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    ...though more out of politicians than structure.
    I don't think you'll find many Americans that disagree with you here. Politicians are a runaway train it seems, recently. Sure, at some point we elected some of these people... but, I'm really disappointed with most politicians in office right now.
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    (Original post by ak137)
    America - Land of the free? or the home of the slaves...
    Land of the free if you're rich and white, Land of the slaves if you're anything else.
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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    *facepalm* Yeah, because I meant automatically(!) How dumb do you think I am? Rarely hence the lack of necessity. America is more violent than the UK though... or there's a hell of a lot of media sensationalism.

    You obviously don't understand martial arts that well if you're making that statement. You should know in that situation it's about self discipline and using the minimum required force to defend yourself. What kind of dojo do you go to? The fact you're a martial artist and carry a gun disgusts me. Technically speaking to train properly it'd probably be more expensive. And to reply to being held at gun point that depends on circumstances but that's pretty much as dangerous with or without a gun; if their gun's already drawn and you go to draw yours then bang, you're dead.
    You would be absolutely correct in that there is more media sensationalism.

    I think you and I are just going to disagree and never see eye to eye here. It disgusts you that I'm a martial artist and carry a gun? Why is that? Do you even train? Do you honestly know what you're talking about, or do you only know what the television is telling you? I am absolutely prepared for whatever situation may arise. I have the utmost self control and I am the most aware person when it comes to my surroundings. I know that in any given situation, I am not as strong as an enraged 300 lb. man and I may not be able to take him down with my hands only. What makes you think I don't understand the fundamentals of martial arts simply because I own a weapon? Again, you are quite naive and close minded here. What is the sentence "Technically speaking to train properly it'd probably be more expensive" supposed to mean?
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    (Original post by Ceteris Parabus)
    Push off you miserable British and leave America alone. You sound like the jealous loner kid in high school who hates the popular kid because people like them more. America is the popular kid. Stop talking about us if you hate us so much. In the words of regina, "Boo, you whore." I can't stand dumb british people.
    America's not the popular kid. America is the bully that everyone hates. Notice the 7:1 neg : pos rep ratio
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    (Original post by MirandaPanda)
    All but 100% with the recent healthcare changes enacted by Obama
    That's not true. My brother in law is just going to pay the fine because it's cheaper than insuring all his employees and fire people to make up the cost. A lot of employers are doing that. All the healthcare reforms really are is just forced insurance. I have no idea why you think it will result in near 100% coverage unless you have no clue what Obamacare actually is
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    (Original post by Just Like You)
    You would be absolutely correct in that there is more media sensationalism.

    I think you and I are just going to disagree and never see eye to eye here. It disgusts you that I'm a martial artist and carry a gun? Why is that? Do you even train? Do you honestly know what you're talking about, or do you only know what the television is telling you? I am absolutely prepared for whatever situation may arise. I have the utmost self control and I am the most aware person when it comes to my surroundings. I know that in any given situation, I am not as strong as an enraged 300 lb. man and I may not be able to take him down with my hands only. What makes you think I don't understand the fundamentals of martial arts simply because I own a weapon? Again, you are quite naive and close minded here. What is the sentence "Technically speaking to train properly it'd probably be more expensive" supposed to mean?
    Yet you listen to it, as well as many others. The stats on your website among others show the US is more violent.

    You should know about the philosophy of martial arts. I train 5 times per week(10 hours is my minimum). It's not really to do with the techniques more your attitude towards self protection. Use your feet too? But seriously, do you not know how and where to apply force? It means training is expensive even if you don't go that often. I have a few dojos - my cheapest one is £2.50 per 2hr sess because it's a uni one, I go twice a week to those sessions. If I go 50 weeks per year for 3 years that's £750, add into that a gi, licences/insurance, seminars, competitions, gradings, belts, sparring equipment and it can cost £900 fairly easily for a decent level of training.
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    (Original post by barratt15)
    No no, I am enjoying the intellectual challenge that is deciphering your sentence structure and literary style.
    translation, i dont have any reply to that so ill be a grammar nazi
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    (Original post by alex5455)
    translation, i dont have any reply to that so ill be a grammar nazi
    Close, but no cigar. Translation actually is 'CBA anymore with this infuriatingly ill-informed and unashamedly self-righteous bigoted individual' and thus I sought to bow out with a cheeky insult. It was entertaining arguing with you before I, and I think it is plain to see, many on this thread realised quite how befuddled and idiotic you really are.

    At least the reasoned posters on this thread have prevented you from giving Americans the impression all us Brits are like you.

    Goodnight
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    (Original post by barratt15)
    Close, but no cigar. Translation actually is 'CBA anymore with this infuriatingly ill-informed and unashamedly self-righteous bigoted individual' and thus I sought to bow out with a cheeky insult. It was entertaining arguing with you before I, and I think it is plain to see, many on this thread realised quite how befuddled and idiotic you really are.

    At least the reasoned posters on this thread have prevented you from giving Americans the impression all us Brits are like you.

    Goodnight
    which bit exactly was self righteous? and i bet it wouldnt be bigoted if it was china or saudi arabia i was saying was a terrible nation and a burden on the rest of the world would it? your just being an america lover, which is fine its your opinion, i genuinely cant see why you like it so much
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    Bit of a funny place America... It was the nation that was founded upon the principles of freedom, liberty, self-determination and equality for all.

    Except...
    George Washington was the heir to a great big estate in the New World, where the family was making a fortune from raw materials. The family desperately wanted to expand West to acquire new lands from the Native American tribes that lived there. The British Government would not allow further expansion into the lands of the natives, as we had trade deals with them and didn't want to see them all overrun. Some 'American' citizens didn't like being restricted to their nation-sized piece of land, so joined the rebellion.

    Other Americans were resentful of our tax on tea. Considering we'd just fought a very costly war to stop the French taking over their lands and either killing them or driving them out, actually paying back the costs of our efforts would have been nice. After all, the Americans insisted we pay them back for the help they gave us in World War Two. Oh, and we took the import duties off almost everything except tea. Reducing taxes? Not good for the infamous smuggling trade around Boston unfortunately.

    The U.S. continued slavery for a long time after they left the Empire and we banned it, and racial segregation up until Martin Luther King managed to put help bring it down. Plus, a large number of workers were kept in permanent debt slavery. So they weren't really that committed to freedom and equality (except for white, anglo-american middle/upper class people).

    Then think about the civil war. One side finds the other oppressive, doesn't like being told what to do from some far off capital. Decides to exercise its natural right to self-determination. See any parallels? So what do the North do? Become truly Imperialist and move in to crush the new state that wishes to be independent. Abraham Lincoln himself said he didn't care if slavery was stopped or not. It was a political point, not something he cared about. So obviously self-determination isn't REALLY important to America. Or at least, not when they stand to lose from it.

    America was founded on the right ideas. It's just slower to embrace them than the Imperialist European powers they always claimed to be against. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were pretty similar - two colonialist powers who claimed to fight for freedom and equality against the evil forces of imperialism...

    Until I studied American and Russian history I would have always sided with America... Funny what a bit of knowledge does to your perceptions of the world!
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    (Original post by Gearbox789)
    Then think about the civil war. One side finds the other oppressive, doesn't like being told what to do from some far off capital. Decides to exercise its natural right to self-determination. See any parallels? So what do the North do? Become truly Imperialist and move in to crush the new state that wishes to be independent. Abraham Lincoln himself said he didn't care if slavery was stopped or not. It was a political point, not something he cared about. So obviously self-determination isn't REALLY important to America. Or at least, not when they stand to lose from it.
    While true, the main issue which the South formed the Confederacy over was indeed slavery. While Lincoln himself was not an abolitionist, the Republican Party was, on the whole, the most anti-Slavery party at the time - and Lincoln did want to block its expansion into the Western territories. Though admittedly, even many abolitionist Republicans opposed slavery for economic rather than moral reasons.

    America was founded on the right ideas. It's just slower to embrace them than the Imperialist European powers they always claimed to be against. The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. were pretty similar - two colonialist powers who claimed to fight for freedom and equality against the evil forces of imperialism...
    Au contraire. The US was an empire from Day 1. George Washington called the USA an "infant empire". Benjamin Franklin said "a prince that acquires new territories and removes the natives to give his people room will be remembered as the father of the nation" before the revolution, in a complaint that the British were limiting the expansion of the colonies.

    Since then, the US has always been imperialistic. Think of things like the Monroe Doctrine, all the wars with the Indians, the war with Spain, etc. Just because the USA didn't become a world empire until after WW2 doesn't mean it wasn't imperialistic before.
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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    You should know about the philosophy of martial arts. I train 5 times per week(10 hours is my minimum). It's not really to do with the techniques more your attitude towards self protection. Use your feet too? But seriously, do you not know how and where to apply force? It means training is expensive even if you don't go that often.
    Again, not that this is relevant to the thread at hand, but since you seem to think I'm incapable of knowing the "philosophy" of martial arts, I'll just tell you that I've been training for 14 years in various styles including Shorinji Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Wing Chun. I'm also professionally trained in the bo staff, combat knife and tonfa. If you truly understood the values of martial arts as you say you do, you would understand that a gun could be seen as an acceptable level of defense in the appropriate situation. And I am prepared for any situation.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    That's not true. My brother in law is just going to pay the fine because it's cheaper than insuring all his employees and fire people to make up the cost. A lot of employers are doing that. All the healthcare reforms really are is just forced insurance. I have no idea why you think it will result in near 100% coverage unless you have no clue what Obamacare actually is
    I was wondering when you were going to pop-up with your typical Obama-hatred. So I'm supposed to use the subjective example of your "brother in law" to deduce that this is how a majority of businesses in the US are going to act? LOL, talk about utterly moronic logic; provide me with an objective source which shows "a lot of employers" are going to follow suit, or kindly keep your anecdotes to yourself :rolleyes:

    Anyways, as I said in the 'US Primaries 2012' thread however (and as has been the case with others and their dealings with you, such as the thread on why the Tea Party was founded and its key principles), there is no point in arguing with you. Whenever there is a retort provided that completely shuts you up (which is always pretty much the case), instead of admitting to your idiocy, you just leave the thread and cowardly don't provide a reply back. Ergo, I don't wish to waste the time and effort in doing so.
Updated: February 24, 2012
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